"However it is interesting in her comment "Having the 'preview' meant a world of difference, it created trust and confidence."

Well, I never looked on it like that and went ahead based on discussions of fees and emails ("we are excited to continue this project with you at the helm"). Sure, in the interest of speeding things up and her husbands limited availability it now looks like it created the potential of getting screwed but the point is I was proceeding ahead in good faith based on our communications, not based on the thought "Here's free stuff. Please hire me.", as the post suggests and has at least been interpreted that way by at least two lurkers.

"Here's free stuff. Please hire me."

Do you mean a small flashlight with your business name and contact information printed on it?

However it is interesting in her comment "Having the 'preview' meant a world of difference, it created trust and confidence."

This is exactly what portfolios are for. :-D I fully expect to be able to look through an architect's portfolio, before dropping cash on the table (unless it's a small initial consultation fee; I don't necessarily object to those), and then pay them for designing something for me.

And honestly, ARG posts his designs here, which count as an informal portfolio. If he were in Texas, I'd be calling him for an interview request.

"...Maybe that is what the online plans do for others who fear blindly placing trust in someone without a "peak" into what they may offer..."

To the extent that this is true, I would suppose that going to a doctor, emergency room, accountant, attorney, vet, financial advisor or a pharmacy would be a traumatic event to be avoided at all costs, until and unless these professionals first provided a drawing or photo of what they might do in the way of services.

Incredible rationalization.

"And honestly, ARG posts his designs here, which count as an informal portfolio."

Actually, that's my only online portfolio. I have no web site or any other web presence what-so-ever. Around 15 years ago I thought about setting up a web site but never got around to it. And now, curiously, I'm kinda proud of the fact I'm almost always booked up but yet have no web site.

Kalen - Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you advocated free services! I only quoted you because you quoted PG, and your post was closer to the bottom than hers. Pure laziness on my part!

I am going to hand my architect $54,000 with no guarantee that I will have anything to show for it. I mean nothing at all, and I struggle with that. He could literally produce things that I hate, that are nothing like we talked about at all, and I will have nothing to show for it.

I am glad that ARG posts drawings that illustrate his process. I presume this is similar with other architects as well. Yes, there has to be trust in the architect. Yes, you don't know what the architect may (or may not) come up with for you. But, I can't wrap my mind around a scenario where a person would hand over $50K + to an architect with zero "guarantee" in the end result. In my experience, while we liked the concepts in the first sketches we received, we realized that we had failed to mention a thick landscape/privacy buffer was very important to us and the house could not be as wide as the initial concepts due to this (and goodbye one room deep house ;)). So, there were a few more sketches which we discussed and then moved forward with one that turned into our final drawing. Based on my experience, I don't see a scenario where the end result would have been some complete unknown that we were unsure about.

I will admit I had a previous experience with another architect that did not produce the results we wanted. But in this case we realized that it wasn't going to work out early enough in the process that we were only out the retainer fee. And I will also admit that our next step in that case was building a plan our builder had already designed with his architect. But, this decision had nothing to do with feeling better about seeing something up front. We built that house because when our builder showed us the plans, we said "this is exactly what we were trying to describe to that other architect!"

In both instances, we entered the relationship with trust that the architect would deliver the results we were hoping for. However, in either case, I don't think I would have agreed to pay tens of thousands of dollars up front, but also don't think that demonstrates a lack of trust.

Wow, I just saw these posts. I didn't expect so many strong opinions and apologize for any confusion. ARG is right with respect to the email timeline. What impressed me the most, was that our architect was able to capture our vision so readily and clearly, including the clouds, lol. He made it an enjoyable experience!

I've found that if one gets the clouds right, everything else just falls into place!

Time to reevaluate my design approach.

When it comes to the design of a custom home by an architect, in many cases the process begins with discussions about needs, wants and budget, and a site visit. These activities are thereafter followed by an initial series of concept sketches or "what-if" sketches to explore in physical form the initial discussions. Both client and architect participate jointly. Many times this may be called a "charrette" after the process used in the Beaux Arts School of Architecture in Paris in the 1800s.

The medical equivalency, for these early steps would be blood tests and other diagnostic procedures until the root medical problem was discovered, followed by appropriate and detailed treatment. It's a similar step by step process in architecture.

In architecture, once a sound and responsive concept sketch is achieved, it is further developed in a process called Schematic Design, which is architectural speak for taking the sketches and making initial to scale sketches of interiors and exterior, plus a site plan sketch. Once these are approved (or revised and approved), Design Development takes place where all elements of the design are finalized and documented. Depending on the jurisdiction and their requirements, somewhere during Design Development, documents are prepared for design approvals, if required. Once Design Development is approved, construction Documents (drawings and specifications) are prepared sufficient for permit application, bidding and construction.

The relevant point is that many professions follow similar and logical step-by-step procedures which should be fully and completely explained to the client or patient.

No responsible professional does a complete and final "product" or "service" and simply hands that over to a client at the outset of their relationship. That would be foolish and completely inappropriate.

More to the point, professional architectural services proceed on a defined and pre-agreed step by step process in which client and architect participate jointly, and every "step" has a sign-off point of agreement before moving to the next step.

Folks that are uncomfortable with such a process, whether architecture or medicine, should carefully consider how wise and applicable any sort of alternative process would actually be.

Do the online plans even cover the various HVAC needs or is that all-vaulted ceilings plan assuming it's not needed?

I've seen some where the plumbing would have to look like the London tube system.

This conversation has made me realize the subconscious question I've been trying to answer is "will an architect provide me 20k-50k+ of value compared to a plan I find online that is good enough with a minor tweak or two?"

After reading these forums for awhile, at first I was leaning towards yes, because I thought you could easily save the cost with the architect's knowledge of how to design for a lower build cost. However, I then saw a few threads about how the architect shouldn't be expected to be able to design such that the build cost is kept within even 50% of the budget, and so now I just don't know. Will there really be an additional 20k-50k+ of value compared to "good enough"?

I cannot help but notice that everybody talks from the perspective of "wants" and "needs" while thinking and planing a house. Then a common theme emerges that even when you build everything you "wanted" and "needed", for some reason it does not work. It seems like what the whole culture is centered around a particular framework of thinking "What do I want? What do I need?", you are predetermining the path of thinking and decision making that you will follow. You will follow the "dream house" path. Had you asked different questions or told a story, you would follow a different path. Perhaps different houses would emerge - "a functional house", "a comfortable house", "an inviting house", "a house where I work", "a house where I create", etc.

The example of modern Western medical approach shows exactly why so many people are sick and why so many houses are wrong and why so many people are unhappy about the houses. The above described diagnostic model deals with symptoms not root causes, thus by addressing the symptom by applying a bandaid, we are setting up a trap for a larger problem down the road.

"...Do the online plans even cover the various HVAC needs or is that all-vaulted ceilings plan assuming it's not needed?..."

Almost never. Vaulted ceilings always add to the heating and cooling calculations and challenge HVAC distribution and return lines. No foundation design. No structural design or roof framing. No electrical design. No plumbing design.

In most cases with plan factory documents, what you see is what you get. And what you don't see you don't get! :-)

"...After reading these forums for awhile, at first I was leaning towards yes, because I thought you could easily save the cost with the architect's knowledge of how to design for a lower build cost. However, I then saw a few threads about how the architect shouldn't be expected to be able to design such that the build cost is kept within even 50% of the budget, and so now I just don't know. Will there really be an additional 20k-50k+ of value compared to "good enough"?..."

This is a very good comment and question. Budget setting and management is truly a major issue for all parties involved in the design and construction of a custom home.

That said, it's the same challenge whether or not an architect is involved. The same financial risk management scenario is in play. There are many areas, decisions and actions which impact construction cost and schedule, ranging from the outset of the project to completion and occupancy. Starting with a plan factory plan or a builder's plan is no guarantee of a fixed or guaranteed price for construction.

The difference in commissioning an architect is that the consumer has an experienced professional working directly with them from the outset, whose only role and responsibility is to represent and respond to the consumer's best interests. Drafters, "designers" and builders do not represent the consumer and the consumer's best interest; they represent their own best business interests.

For the greatest cost management possible, working with an experienced architect AND a builder (both of whom can communicate and work together) is probably the consumer's very best approach.

I am not 100% sure the Dr analogy is a good one. I'd like to think that given a singular patient with a problem / illness that both (all?) doctors would come to the same diagnosis and close to the same treatment,, whereas the architects may have VASTLY different solutions to the design problem - all that will work.

Some of us describe our needs and wants that way. :-)

I have been known to say that I want a home that sings to me. I want to live in poetry. I need a relaxing house to ease the hustle and bustle that a large family frequently creates. One of my boys and I are the only extroverts, so the house must feel the most "right" for the other 5 (maybe 6+) people. Driving or walking up to my house should make me smile and think, "Wow this is just so nice. I am so blessed."

Square footage is negotiable, number and type of rooms is negotiable. I have a general idea of how I want it organized (distinct private vs public wings), but am open to how best to puzzle it all together.

I also have a favorite color (purple) and favorite pattern (herringbone), and will be thrilled to incorporate those details. I have a favorite architectural style, but I really like several, and would love any one of them. A window seat or two -- or ten -- would bring me joy, and I hope it wouldn't need to be sacrificed (sometimes elements just don't work out).

Despite all of this, I don't think I am expecting absolute perfection from the house, and I tend to look at the bright side with whatever I end up with. But I have to arrive there by knowing that I did the best I could, with what I had, at the time.

Edited to add:

I can kinda see the doctor analogy, actually. I can visit with half a dozen healthcare providers, and each one will have a different take on how I should do something... and I've only ever really needed help doing what women have done since Genesis -- have babies. :-)

So it's not like I have a rare condition, and my "complications" aren't even considered significant to some professionals. So, I have to figure out what my priorities are, select someone who is most compatible, then trust their judgment when the time comes. (And I pay quite a bit more for my choices.)

"...The above described diagnostic model deals with symptoms not root causes..."

Completely false. Completely. The early diagnostic steps in medicine and architecture are designed specifically to identify the actual root causes, so that proper prognosis and treatment (or design, in the case of architecture) can take place.

Of course, in medicine and in architecture there are situations where the actual root cause cannot be readily or easily determined, and symptoms are treated. Ask me how I know...

Time to reevaluate my design approach.

Keep practicing those clouds Mark!

I can't wrap my mind around a scenario where a person would hand over $50K + to an architect with zero "guarantee" in the end result

But in this case we realized that it wasn't going to work out early enough in the process that we were only out the retainer fee.

Just to be clear, I am working with an architect that Virgil turned me on to, and that is the retainer. That is the first of three payments.

I need a clarification here. What was the amount of the retainer? $50,000??

I cannot help but notice that everybody talks from the perspective of "wants" and "needs" while thinking and planing a house. Then a common theme emerges that even when you build everything you "wanted" and "needed", for some reason it does not work. It seems like what the whole culture is centered around a particular framework of thinking "What do I want? What do I need?", you are predetermining the path of thinking and decision making that you will follow. You will follow the "dream house" path. Had you asked different questions or told a story, you would follow a different path. Perhaps different houses would emerge - "a functional house", "a comfortable house", "an inviting house", "a house where I work", "a house where I create", etc.

You criticize the "wants" and "needs" and then just list a bunch of wants and needs. All of those things you listed are nothing other than what you are criticizing.

Which brings us to the bigger question, who are you telling this story to? I just spent 20 minutes using a lot of inspirational words while telling my computer screen a great story about my home as an enrichment of my life. No plan popped up, in fact, I got the distinct impression my computer screen wasn't listening at all.

You are actually just taking the benefits provided by a good architect and saying what if we could do these things without an architect... I accept that conclusion, however, we wouldn't need online plans either if we could do those things.

Wait, so $150k for an architect?

If that is standard pricing, I need to seriously revisit my budget. And save up more money. This is gonna take awhile. Wowza.

Nice to have a heads up, though!

Edited to add: Thank you for the relief, Mr. Mark. :-) I was really nervous there.

If that is standard pricing, I need to seriously revisit my fee structure.

Charging a reasonable rate and not drawing clouds on elevation drawings . . . I had no idea I was doing it wrong all these years.

Thanks for clarifying, bry911. In the situation I referred to, the retainer was a couple thousand.

bry911 - this wouldn't by any chance be LakeFlato? I only ask because I love their work and I've seen Virgil post about them a time or two. In other world, with a bigger budget I would have made that call. (Please feel free to ignore this if you don't feel comfortable disclosing who you are working with.)

I need a clarification here. What was the amount of the retainer? $50,000??

I just checked the information again to make sure, and I might be wrong about this. I don't really understand the exact terminology in their fee schedule. I arrived at that fee by taking 120% of their project minimum (just to be safe) x the discussed percentage x the fees in the design phase.

I am not really sure that is "the retainer," as such, but that approximates the fees I would pay prior to plan approval and production of construction documents.

@kayce03 - I am hesitant to say, I hope to use this forum as a resource and I am afraid that identifying the architect will limit that.

"I think many of us appreciate the gentle way in which you respond to many of us"

Thanks Kalenangel. Appreciate it. I'm saving this thought for the next time Mrs. Architectrunnerguy doesn't like my response to her for lecturing me on the way I leave sweaty running clothes all over the master bathroom floor.

I'm saving this thought for the next time Mrs. Architectrunnerguy doesn't like my response to her for lecturing me on the way I leave sweaty running clothes all over the master bathroom floor.

Haha! My wife just pointedly asks if I want these things washed since they were in the floor and not the laundry hamper.

lol -- I *am* the wife, and if something is on the floor, or draped over a chair, or slung over a door, it's automatic wash. Inevitably, I get questioned, "Where's my shirt?" "Oh, it wasn't in the closet; I assumed it was dirty." :-D

Too late to train a husband (that was his parents' job, anyway, lol), and since I have lots of littles to train, I'm booked out for the next 20+ years.

I "am" the architect and I draw all dirty clothes in the laundry basket in the walk-in closet, not directly accessible from the master bathroom, or in the laundry hamper in the laundry room.

You can't get all this quality interaction from online plans.

See, I'm surprised you even need to add clouds, with the idealistic laundry!

bry911 - totally understand! It's why I haven't named my architects either. I will when we're done.

The names have been changed to protect the guilty?

Bry911, you seem to have two paths in mind - quick google search for an answer or soul-baring talk with an architect. A varied list of houses was juxtaposed against the only idea that exists in a the culture - the idea of "a dream house". This was not a list of wants or needs. All of the houses were alternatives to the idea of a dream house. For example, when I was building, I was not building my dream house. I was building something else. While all around seem to think that people only want dream houses with this or that feature, I am asserting that there is more than one way to approach initial design which will lead to very different outcomes.

Natalie H, I am going to disengage from this portion of the discussion now, because you keep doing the strawman argument thing. I have written nothing about a dream home, I have no idea what any of your previous post has to do with anything I have typed, so I am confused why you addressed it to me.

You literally just took a point that I made days ago and regurgitated it. I have never argued what you are noting and have had several discussions contrary to the position that you are ascribing to me, and this is the second time you have done it.

Your initial position had an obvious error, and was wrong, and I mean objectively wrong. The idea that living in a well designed house is a replacement for intensive study and practice designing houses well is ridiculous on its face. Being exposed to good design doesn't make you a good designer anymore than listening to Adele makes you a good singer.

This doesn't mean that I am saying everyone should hire an architect. I am saying that the only legitimate reason to not hire an architect is because the expected cost is greater than the expected benefit. I think we can safely say that if architects worked for free we would see a lot less pushback to the engage an architect advice.

In the end, you are just making the same value argument that I did, but wrapping it up in a justification, which is dangerous.

I believe there are projects that don't justify the expense of a full service architect. These are particularly noticeable when covenants on small lots get restrictive and financial position is a consideration. That doesn't mean that those projects wouldn't be better with the help of an architect, only that the cost of an architect and the uncertainty of the benefit make a rational argument against using an architect.

If there were no "need" there would be no architecture.

"Dream house" is best applied to the structure in which one regularly sleeps.

Dream house is a lot like forever house. Neither exist.

Nobody values free work from individuals unless it is a communal peer-to-peer exchange.

Mark and Virgil, your quotes on what is dream house should be included in the books of "Architect says". Delightful points to start thinking about when formulating the ideas about future houses. Thrilling beginning of the day for me with these two succinct thoughts!

I'm writing my own book, it won't be free.

Mark "You can't get all this quality interaction from online plans." Good comment and So true, lots of thoughts, opinions happening here. Lots of good folks too, I bet (:

Another point, like many pros there are some that are good and some that are not. Further, people are people and some like to capitalize on their services more than others, some fly high on their laurels and charge hefty fees for their services, whereas others are more reasonable. For example, I read somewhere on this forum of architect charging 15,000 sq ft. Sheeesh!

Just wanted to chime in to say, great thread here... captures a lot of what we have been going through in the planning stages of our house. We initially looked endlessly to find a stock plan we could modify... ended up empty because we wanted the house orientation to have the south-side be the long side, for rooms to have light on at least two sides, and for the main living areas to only be one room deep. (The Pattern Language book pretty much ruined me from being able to find a stock plan.) So when we eliminated the majority of plans, we looked for plan B... We would have engaged in a contract with ARG (really enjoyed the call with him and his process), except that we live in a construction boom area with a very strict county planning and permitting department requiring endless specs, so we needed more detailed plans that fit FL code (and the quotes we were getting locally for drafters to finish out concepts with details rivaled architect fees). So then it seemed our best bet would be to work with a local architect... We are normal locals in an zip code known for lavish second homes, so we felt lucky to finally someone who seems like a great fit. (And, I think in budget... we are in an hourly phase right now, but GW taught me that after due diligence and reference checking, once hired then apply the golden rule of trust thy architect.) It is going well, aside from my realization that architecture is about a gajillion times more complicated that I realized even after reading 8-10 architecture books and these forums.

So this thread sure put into words a lot of what we have wrestled with along the way. And bry911, really looking forward to seeing your modern build come together... if we survive this traditional build, that is the next type of project I'd like to tackle. Told my husband the other day, if we ever won the lottery or experienced a windfall, I think it would be great fun to build different style houses that I feel drawn to but are so opposed to each other.... historical Colonials, Florida fish camps, and the beauty and simply of a modern structure executed correctly. Some day! - Said someone before even breaking ground on their first home.

Don't lose ARG's number.

Our biggest regret in our design was not hiring an architect sooner! Instead we fiddlefarted around, ignorantly and arrogantly thinking we could obtain professional level skills by moving boxes around on graph paper.

Meanwhile interest rates inched up, we paid property tax on two locations, and our kids just got older as kids often do.

I eventually posted a rough outline of our wonky design and an architect student Nick (thank you Nick!) posted a rough outline to show us how to improve. The moment I saw that an Architect-in-training (Armed with only a paragraph of information from a stranger online) developed a much better design in 24hours than I had come up with in two years of sitting in front of a 60$ computer program, I knew an architect would be worth every penny.

We hired ARG and will now be lifelong members of his fan club. ;)

Hello and Welcome to the club providence, your journey is very similar to mine. (: http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/4449548/the-journey-for-the-plan-has-finally-been-realized-long?n=40