Regarding the Kitchen...

Do you know the aisle widths? Measure them to/from the things that stick out into the aisle the farthest, not cabinet-to-cabinet. This will mean measuring to/from things like appliance handles (e.g., oven door handle or refrigerator handle), counter edges, etc. The minimum recommended widths are:

• 42" for a one-person and always one-person Kitchen

• 48" for two or more people working in the Kitchen -- which will be you either now or in the near future. When your "small children" get older (and it will happen fast!), they will be working in the Kitchen with you and/or your spouse learning to cook and help clean up (necessary life skills today for both girls and boys). So, plan for it now.

• The aisle b/w the sofa and the island should be at least 54", with 60" better. That's going to be a major traffic path for going outside from the rest of the house!

If you put the wall back up b/w the DR and Kitchen, you should be able to fit a wall oven and, maybe, an appliance garage.

I'm also concerned about your lack of real prep workspace -- the Cleanup Zone side of the island (with the DW) has most of the workspace while the Prep Zone side has very little workspace. The Prep Zone is the most-used work zone and should have a bare minimum of 36" of clear counterspace, with 42" or more much, much better.

The counterspace on the peninsula is not very useful b/c it doesn't have a water source.

Are you open to major revisions?

Let's see if I can answer all the questions:

fori - the peninsula is perhaps misnamed. We were thinking to have a raised bar section between the 2 sides with kitchen cabinets on one side and shallow cabinets on the other side for wine glasses etc for the dining table. We want to be able to use the table informally so being able to pass food over top from the kitchen seemed a good idea.

caligirl5 - I love the pass through to the outside, but we REALLY want to keep access to all the light from the big windows at the back since they are south facing and will make a big difference to the brightness in the house. Since we are only feet away from the neighbors it doesn't give us much to put windows at the side of the house (except for a dark view of someone else's stucco!).

debbie and cpartist - 2 living spaces. I know. Even I think it is overkill, but we have them right now in virtually the same layout and we quite like it. Even though it doesn't look like it, I can read a book in the front zone while DH watches tv in the back and it feels social but separate.

buehl - I believe that your measurements are about right. We will not have seating on the peninsula. I just quizzed our architect and he said that the aisles are 4' at present. I would be open to a major revision....but DH is sick of me changing things, so I will have to be careful!

"but DH is sick of me changing things, so I will have to be careful!"

Changing things now will be a lot cheaper than changing things later! The time to change things is during the design phase. Designs often go through many, many iterations until they're finalized, that's the nature of "design"!

Ha! I know, buehl... and that is what I have been telling him, but I actually can't believe how much we have already changed. It makes me feel like I don't know my own mind. Go ahead, hit me up with ideas! lol...

Here's what I have to start with -- if I don't have time to come back to it, others can use this "blank slate" as well.

I'd get rid of that peninsula between the kitchen and LR/DR and put up a full wall. You are already open to the family room, and this will give you more counter and cabinet space. It will also mean that someday when your children are older, you might entertain adults and be in the LR/DR and your children will be in the family room watching TV with access to the kitchen for snacks etc.

I would not put such constantly used appliances in an appliance garage. Leave them out on your counter (that new wall might be just the place) as you will constantly be using them, and they will have to be pulled out due to heat concerns. I use my Breville toaster multiple times a day and would not want it anywhere but on the counter where it is! OTH, I keep more rarely used appliances stored in the built-in cabinet above the refrigerator.

Here are three options...my preference is #1, then #2, and #3 as a distant third. I don't have time to do a detailed analysis (I'm going to be hating life when the alarm goes off in about 5 hours!)

All three keep the raised counter/cabinets b/w the Kitchen and Dining Room. While I agree with Anglophilia about the wall b/w the DR and Kitchen, if you really don't want it, then that's your choice -- it's your Kitchen, not ours!

I added another window for additional light/view. If there's a reason you don't want additional windows, then you can eliminate it and put in more upper cabinets. Another option is to eliminate all upper cabinets and flank the range/hood with smaller windows. However, I'm not sure if you can afford to lose all your upper cabinet space.

Small appliances (blender, food processor, etc.), with the possible exception of the toaster oven, are in the corner susan. This is a good option b/c you have all the small appliances readily available and a corner susan puts all the items in front for ease of access (just rotate the shelf until the appliance you want is in front and lift it out.)

Do you use the coffeemaker throughout the day? If so, I would think you'd want it on the counter.

I prefer the Cleanup Zone off the island b/c when the Cleanup Zone is on an island like this:

• It puts your dirty dishes front & center and on display for all to see and
• Sitting with dirty dishes in front of you is not pleasant. Maybe if the island could be another 6" deeper to add some space b/w the seats and the dirty dishes it might work, although I still would rather not have dirty dishes in such a "public" location.

If I have time tomorrow, I will work up another layout with the wall b/w the DR and Kitchen.

Layout #1:

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Layout #1 Zone Map:

Note the nice sizes of all your primary work zones (primary Prep, Cooking, Cleanup) as well as the secondary Prep Zone. In addition, all three zones are nicely separated to allow more than one person to be working in the Kitchen at the same time.

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Layout #2:

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Layout #2 Zone Map:

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Layout #3 (this is close to what you have in your original layout):

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Layout #3 Zone Map:

Notice how the three primary work zones are crammed into one small space of the Kitchen. The peninsula isn't very useful for prepping and cooking b/c there's no water on it.

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Anglophilia and buehl - thank you, thank you, thank you! So much to consider. I need to go to work but I will be thinking about the kitchen. :)

Would something like this be too enclosing? It would allow you to shuffle pantry, oven, and appliance garage. A peninsula with ends...a pass-through? Since it's not attached to other counters, it could be a different height or material.

buehl - we just saw a house with the almost exact same kitchen as your option #1, except that it didn't have a sink in the island, just on the peninsula. The DW and trash were at the sink area. The island was lovely with no sink, but it did seem far to go from the fridge to the sink to wash veggies. Bad idea?

Yes, bad idea! :-)

Why? It's not just b/c the refrigerator is so far from the Prep Zone -- which is next to a sink, wherever the sink is, it's also:

• Zone-crossing -- If you have to cross through the Cooking Zone to get from the refrigerator to the Prep Zone (non-DW side of the sink). Then, you have to backtrack to get from the Prep Zone to the Cooking Zone.

• Only one true Prep Zone -- fine while children are very young and assuming your spouse does not help out when you cook. But, when your children hit the tweens (or even earlier), they will be helping out in the Kitchen and you will be tripping over each other, especially if you both need access to the sink.

• Either prepping -or- cleanup can occur at one time, not both. OK for a Kitchen where only one activity goes on at a time...that will change, trust me!

If you were an empty-nester couple and you never, ever had help in the Kitchen, then the layout might be an acceptable compromise. But you're not -- you have two small children that will shortly be helping....so, do you really want to design a compromise Kitchen when you can design one that works really well now and in the future? All that money spent for a so-so design instead of a good to great design!

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In the layout below, see how you only have one true Prep Zone and how the sink will be a one-person sink only? Also, note the zone crossing (see the purple lines).

I can't thank you enough, buehl. It blows me away the amount of effort that you have put in on this when I am just a faceless internet person to you. I really appreciate your time.

My husband loved the neighbor's place with no sink on the island - but it just didn't feel right to me! Your explanation made it pretty clear as to why.

I am definitely leaning towards option #1.

On the off chance that we were to consider closing up the main floor slightly and put up a wall instead of the peninsula - what would you suggest? Would it be dramatically better?

You're welcome! When I was remodeling my Kitchen, I got so much help here and I found I really enjoyed designing Kitchens, that I stayed around and am helping others -- paying it forward!

Regarding your question about adding a partial wall....

I think it is better....in the layout I did:

• It gives you your wall oven [Note: I left the range so you could have two ovens -- one in the range and one in the wall. However, if you prefer a cooktop, then replace the range with a cooktop. It would give you 2 or 3 drawers 30" to 36" wide below the cooktop...for pots & pans, maybe.]
• It lets you put the MW above the wall oven.
• It also gives you nice tray storage above the oven & MW.
• The refrigerator is closer to the Dining Room and even the Family Room and keeps someone looking for a snack or setting the table out of your Prep & Cooking Zones.

On the other hand, the island is verging on being a "barrier island" and you will have to cross into the Cleanup Zone to get to the refrigerator from the Prep and Cooking Zones.

I put in a pass-through b/w the Kitchen and Dining Room for you to stage food and to add DR storage.

It's up to you...what do you think?

Layout #4:

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Layout #4 Zone Map:

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Well, it really is option #1 or #4, isn't it? :)

I know that I don't need both a wall oven AND a range (not much of a cook), so in option #4 I would just be picking one of them. if I did a cooktop, then I would do a wall oven and the speedoven. If I do the range, I would do a microwave drawer.

What I figure I will need for sure is to accept the fact that I will need to dedicate some counter space to our superautomatic espresso machine and my beloved Breville toaster over. :) As Anglophilia pointed out, I will not be happy if I try to hide them.

So I need to sit and think about these 2 plans...

... oh yeah, another Q: Would it be a good idea to try to use the corner lazy susan cabinet between the kitchen and dining area as a wine fridge that faces the DR?

Yes, you could, especially in Layout #4:

Layout #5 (with same Zone Map as Layout #4):

Or, better yet:

Layout #6:

Note the elimination of one of the 18" tall pantries in the Kitchen itself. It gains you 18" of workspace to give you more room in both the Cooking Zone and Prep Zone.

That 18" pantry is "replaced" with the 36"W x 12"D one in the alcove where the Powder Room is. The Utility cabinet (broom, mop, etc.) is pushed deeper inside the alcove.

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Layout #6 Zone Map:

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This is so darn helpful!

I swear to god, I am paying money to people who haven't been nearly so wonderful! All your pics, buehl have helped me decide that I would really rather have the range and microwave drawer, so no to the cooktop/wall oven set up. So I just need to make a decision on a tweak of #1, #4, #5. I don't like #6 - there is something weird to me about food near a bathroom... :)

I'm glad you're getting something out of it.

To be honest, I almost didn't post #6 b/c I'm with you about having the pantry so close to the Powder Room door!

If you stick with a range, you don't need to eliminate the second pantry.

Layout #7:

Oops -- that 46" arrow should have been in front of the range!

Layout #7 Zone Map:

what? I want layout #7! Lol!

I am not sure if there is a way to PM directly to me on Houzz?

You can click Houzz photo and drop the file on the right side.

tarnator, it is so incredibly satisfying to watch your kitchen design evolve.

buehl, you are truly a wonder.

Layout #7 posted above! (I had to use the "Houzz Photo" button...the "Photo" button is not working.)

I can be contacted via my Member Page. Or, send an email to EverCurious2009 using gmail dot com

(Thank you Beth!)

bethohio3 - I wouldn't be evolving at all without buehl... :)

buehl - now i think #1 or #7!

If I don't put in the wine fridge in #7, what would you do with that space? (I am pretty sure that we would use the wine fridge mainly for extra condiments and not wine which never last long in this house. So then it would look pretty trashy instead of classy...) Actually - I am going to google if there is such thing as an opaque or frosted front wine fridge!

Replace the wine fridge with a 24" cabinet.

There are several that either have opaque stainless steel doors or that accept custom panels, so you can put a cabinet door on them. Here are a few that I found on the AJ Madison site. Search in "Compact Refrigeration" under "Refrigerators".

Liebherr: https://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/RU510.html

Summit: https://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/CL64FDSS.html and https://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/FF1532.html

U-Line: https://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/U2224BEV.html

Perlick: https://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/HH24WS3.html

I like option 1 and 7 too. Really nice. I might like option 1 a little more if the fridge was flanked by the two pantry cabinets so that the fridge would be further down and not open into the prep area on the island.

I see what you are saying Karenseb - I have been told that I likely need to put in a french door fridge. If I move it down in option 1, does that mean it could be a single door instead? Is suppose that would work too.

And we have a winner! DH had a look and really didn't want to close down the open concept, even for a pass-through.......so #1 it is!

Buehl - holy crap! some of those little fridges are expensive. We might still do one in that corner instead of the lazy susan, but will have to think it through.

...and just to throw a spanner in the works, my designer had drawn a rough version of the kitchen as a starting point for us to consider before we got the ball rolling with Buehl. Her point was to centre the range on the island and flank it with 2 'cabinets', one of which is the fridge. I can see some merit to that also, so make it version #8? Thoughts anyone?



do you mean the range is centered in the wall behind island?..as per designer?? I would put microwave and pantry cabinet adjacent to fridge, and move range closer down toward corner. You'll have a nice zone at the one end with fridge, island sink, microwave, for your very social looking household.....

First, the refrigerator won't work up against the wall as your KD has it. With the exception of true built-in refrigerators, the doors need to extend out past all adjacent items -- counters, cabinets, walls, etc. You will need around 12" b/w the wall and the refrigerator. It also has to clear the trim around the door and you don't want the handle to be able to slam into the glass on a door or window when it's fully open -- the 12" will take care of both those concerns as well.

Is the "Micro" cabinet also a tall cabinet?

It looks like your KD has voided out the corner -- where's the filler to allow cabinets on each side of the corner to open?

Where's your dish storage?

The trash is much too far away from the Prep & Cooking Zones to be of any use -- you're going to need a second trash on the island.

The prep sink should not be on the end like it's shown. It needs to be moved toward the center for (1) landing space for items to be prepped on the island that are taken from the refrigerator, (2) landing space for items you're cleaning/rinsing, and (3) buffer space to not only minimize splashing on the floor but also so you don't knock things off onto the floor.

What are the aisle widths?

If you have decent aisle widths, I'm concerned that a 48-inch deep island is going to encroach on the Family Room and the traffic path b/w the Family Room and island too much. That 46" wide path b/w the sofa and island in my layouts was pushing it...I would have rather seen another 6" or so more, not less!

Personally, I think this layout would give me a closed in feeling, but maybe that's just me...

If the KD drawing is showing tall pantry and MW cab, what's the deal in the corner? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the drawing. Tall cabs in the middle of the run seems really awkward.

It might be a MW drawer....but it doesn't say one way or the other. Even if it is, there's still a lot missing that would worry me (the filler, what's going on in the corner, etc.); plus, of course, the refrigerator issue!

Regardless, I think with the wall down b/w the two rooms, adding the tall pantry in the middle of the run would ruin the effect and the open feel.

Oh, and while I know you plan to use the island as a primary Prep Zone, that tall pantry still would be an obstacle b/w the range and the cleanup sink for your secondary Prep Zone...in fact, if the MW is in a tall cabinet, then there won't be enough counterspace for a useful secondary Prep Zone.

I also think you've lost food pantry storage space with just the one pantry cabinet. You mentioned that you didn't want to store food near the Powder Room, so your KD should not be planning a pantry over there.

And yes again, Buehl. To everything, i think.

Feeling a bit stymied again, because I was pretty set on option #1, but now DH is saying again that he would really love to have no sink on the island. AND I like the visual of the range lined up behind the island. It sure is hard to get it just right... :)

...and I just noticed that my name changed! i guess i signed in with facebook instead of my Houzz account. (tarnator) Keeping you on your toes. :)

I would put the kitchen where the sitting area is, I would do a feature wall between kitchen and dining room, a see through fireplace might be nice or a decorative pass through with architectural detail and make the kitchen area a breakfast room. This way when you are entertaining you have lots of space, especially on holidays.

As someone who has raised one family of three kids and is presently raising a second family of three kids, I highly recommend having spaces where you can get away from one another. The constant background sound of video games gets very tiresome. Your kids may be too young now for them, but they will reach that age before long. Plus, kids reach an age when they entertain their friends, and sometimes those times intersect with times when you may want some quiet or a place to spend time with other adults.

We have two young kids and designed our main living space (kitchen, dining, living, TV room) to be one big open space. No regrets. In our house, when I or my spouse need space from my kids or vice versa, they go outside to play or to their rooms - we devoted one bedroom to be a playroom just for that purpose. Our last house was all chopped up with separate rooms and it drove me crazy. At the time they were toddlers and I'd be in one room prepping dinner while they were in the other room painting the walls with nail polish or cutting each other's hair. As a family, I find we live more harmoniously in the open space than we did in the chopped up space.

" young kids" are not the same experience as having preteens and teens. That was my point. Your family is going to evolve and with that evolution the way your space is used will also change.

Cheryl: the rest of the house's floor plan is in another post showing a large media room plus an office on another floor - so there's space for this family to spread out

taranator N I agree 100% with beuhl and why the KD's design is just poor. Honestly you won't notice while you're in the kitchen whether your cooktop is centered on the island or not. That's one of those things that look good in magazine pictures from one angle only. Think of it, if you're not standing exactly centered in front of the island, you'll never notice whether or not it's centered!

Thanks to all for many of the thoughts. Buehl is certainly on the right track and pretty sure that we will end up with #1 - or a version of it anyway!

Cheryl - we plan to relegate the kids to the basement once they become MORE annoying... in fact, they are down in our present house now, on the karaoke machine...dear god....

Just want to say we have been working on designs for our upcoming renovation. Our kitchen is 10.5' by 17', and we came up with a similar design to Buehl #1. We're still deciding on the prep sink for the island...

Just to give an update to the community of helpers on here, we are pretty close to finalizing option #1 with our designer! Variation is that we put in the beverage fridge facing the dining room and have added the microwave drawer. I will post a pic once it is done.

Another cool change is that we have switched the island sink to a round one that is a bit more interesting. That seemed to appease hubbie's desire to get rid of the sink altogether. :)

Yay! Option #1 was my fav *grin* Can't wait to see the final outcome (in progress pics are good too =)

Great to hear hubby is on board - what size sink are you going with? Sounds like most people also have a garburator with their prep sink - I think you can get pretty small profile ones so you don't lose all the storage underneath

Love your choice. Kudos to buehl and to you for listening to her. :) .

It might help your DH if you get a cover for your island sink. People here have complained that their prep sinks are too small to be useful so I would think about what exactly it will be used for and get the right size. Best of luck. It will function like a dream...

Damiarain - I keep changing my mind about a garburator in the prep sink. I think that we will probably put one in. I have a batch feed one now, and I think I would miss it if it wasn't there. I really do try to keep most of the food in the compost bin though, so maybe I could get rid of it...

yeonassky - I was worried the prep sink might be too small too. But it is 17" diameter, so about 15" inside. I have been playing with the stuff that I usually put in there and I think it will be OK. FX!