Using any synthetic product means that you are not organic.

Weeds are a constant for anyone whether they are organic or not.

I find it difficult to search fro organic suppliers since the first listing on Google is for Scotts products. Apparently their algorithm does not sort very well for organic suppliers.

In regards to the good feeling term of "I'm green" .... I like to just think of it in "shades of green". If you are using a majority of organic ... and periodically busting out a chemical every few years.... you are in better shape then lawns that are completely synthetically cared for year round.

I wouldn't think a one time use of synthetic herbicide is going to destroy your happy organic lawn or set it back.

Unfortunately, except for hand pulling, efficient lawn weed control does rely on synthetic products......the organics simply do not work well. And it may be overly optimistic to think a one time application will be all that's needed.

It's a matter of tolerance as well. Can you live with a lawn that has a few weeds or do you insist on a pristine, weed-free monoculture?

Once you have the weeds under control or maintained to your satisfaction, resuming a 100% organic approach to lawn care should work well. Fertilize as needed, keep the lawn high and water infrequently but deeply and slowly when you do. Aerate and overseed as necessary. A thick, healthy lawn will shade out or outcomplete most common weeds but a completely weed-free lawn is a fantasy.

btw, to my knowledge there are no 100% organic care nurseries or garden centers anywhere. But most will sell organic products together with the synthetic ferts and pesticides. You just have to pick and choose what products you favor for whatever reasons.

Using a synthetic product, fertilizer, plant (weed killer) poison, is anathema to a true organic grower because even a one time use means you need to put in a minimum of 3 years, more likely 5 years, of no synthetics before you can consider your garden, lawn, as organic again.

Some people try to justify the use of synthetics, and dilute what it means to be organic, by stating that "oh, once in a while it is not a bad thing to do" when it is. Lawns should not be totally weed free as those that use synthetics only appear to think. Those lawns are artificial, just look at a grass land maintained by Ma Nature. Those "weed free" lawns are also one of the reasons we are seeing a decline in our pollinators.

Gardening and maintaining a lawn is completely fighting nature in the first place.... so I think there is some room for a gray area in here.

Kimmsr… I would doubt that you live a 100% organic and eco friendly lifestyle outside of gardening and tending you lawn? Do you not buy consumer goods? Do you buy food at a grocery store? Are you living on the grid? Do you drive a car? Do your burn gas? Do you throw garbage away? Do you live in a home? Do you buy clothing? If you answer yes to any one of these things… you aren’t living 100% organically … and you are messing up mother nature!!!! You are feeding a system that is messing up mother nature!!! If you are human (living a modern life)… You are messing up mother nature!!!

We all do what we can to eliminate non-organics... but it's not a black and white topic. Do you think that chastising someone for any margin of using non-organics helps the cause to get more people gardening and maintaining a lawn in an more organic method?

And yes i know this is the "organic lawn care" section... but people should be able to come here to assist in becoming more organic with an all or nothing approach. Ie: people should be able to go to "how to eat healthy" forum without being scorned for eating a doughnut ever once in a while

Let's get back to the question. Joe N, we know you live in Chicago area, so
that's good information. What kind of grass do you have and what is the
weed you're dealing with? There might be a solution hiding where
you're not looking.

.

.

Okay, now back to kimmsr - he said, Using a synthetic product, fertilizer, plant (weed killer) poison, is
anathema to a true organic grower because even a one time use means you
need to put in a minimum of 3 years, more likely 5 years, of no
synthetics before you can consider your garden, lawn, as organic again.

What are you talking about? Where is this rule written and who enforces it? There is no rule book and no lawn police. If you were trying to sell certified organic produce, then similar rules apply and are enforced, but for a lawn this is hogwash. I realized people come to this forum to get organic solutions, but there is a shocking reality here. Sometimes there is no organic solution other than elbow grease. Sometimes even elbow grease does not work. For example hand pulling of nutgrass, creeping Charlie, and even bermuda does not work. However there are other weeds which do respond to simple mechanical solutions. I deal with thistle by cutting it off just under the soil level with a sharp shovel. I leave the chopped off plant and root and it does not come back.

I have used nothing but organic fertilizer since 2002 and get excellent results. I'm sure excellent results is no surprise to anyone reading this topic. But when there is an infestation of weeds, I have been known to use a chemical herbicide. I would rather make a quick spot spray of a chemical than take hours out of the week pulling weeds which were likely to return unless killed by the chemical. The organic alternatives don't work. I think I've tried them all. It is extremely frustrating to me that there is no effective organic way to kill weeds, but there isn't. I've accepted that. For those who have not yet accepted that fact, I encourage them to continue trying with hoes and tools to remove the weeds. But a single shot of herbicide, applied as a light foliar spray (not a soil drench), once a year at most, does not seem to affect the lawn color or growth. Whether or how it affects the soil biology is unknown.

Many people come to organic forums and make statements that using synthetic products is okay because they want to dilute what it means to be organic and apologize for the environmental havoc those products cause.

Anyone that proposes the use of any synthetic, even on rare occasions, is not an organic grower, and certification is not the issue.

Because the USDA has allowed the organic standards to be diluted to meet the needs of some companies that want to be on the wagon without meeting the standards those standards are meaningless today anyway.

@

dchall_san_Antonio I have Kentucky bluegrass. It's mostly dandelions I deal with. Spring and fall is when I get hit hardest. I hand pull the weeds for the most part and I am not looking for the perfect lawn but was curious if using some synthetic weed killer/preventer would ruin what I've done organically the last five years.

This question sprung from a conversation with a friend who uses Turftrust products and listens to a show called garden sense I believe. He uses those products along with some organic products.

Very simply, using any synthetic product negates anything you have done organically. There are apologists that come here that will attempt to refute that but no matter what using any synthetic negates organic.

"Very simply, using any synthetic product negates anything you have done organically. "

Would you like to explain, with scientific evidence to support your argument, exactly what you mean by that?

Since I seriously doubt you can produce any scientific publications that support that contention, this is only opinion, not fact.

Yes using a synthetic negates you from using the terminology of “I’m organic”. Does using spot treatments of synthetic wipe out all the benefits of using organics through the year..... no.

As I indicated above there are apologists that are attempting to change what it means to be an organic grower that come here.

It does not matter whether one is trying to be certified organic or not, there are standards and none include using any synthetic product at any time in the garden.

I find the use of your term "apologists" offensive and your self-assumed superior attitude about this topic pretty much preposterous!! I am not apologizing for anything!!

Just what exactly are the "standards" that govern organic lawn care and who determined them?? I think you may have some difficulty in answering that question as there aren't any.

A great many people try to be as organic as possible in both their gardening practices and with lawn care, as they realize the benefits of this methodology. But there are instances when organic simply does not work and in the interests of efficiency, effectiveness or basic practicality, they opt for a less natural solution. They should not be chastised by self-appointed organic hall monitors such as yourself when this happens but encouraged in what use of organic practices they do follow.

The only "standards" that apply to organic gardening are those imposed when one wants to sell their product under the 'organic' label and that does require certification and the following of certain regulations. But even those standards have become very muddy and confused and are not in ageement by all parties involved. But very few homeowners care to jump through the hoops necessary to become certified organic nor see any need to - they are not trying to sell anything. There are NO standards that apply to them...........only guidelines that they are free to follow in totality or not.

Btw, you have not bothered to respond to the request to provide scientific validation on how using a synthetic product on a one-time or even infrequent basis negates previous organic practices. Until you can do so to everyone's satisfaction, your comments should be considered just a very narrow opinion that has no substantiation and comes with no authority to back it up.

K... do you only purchase organically grown clothing and food... if not ...you are living in a glass house.

Let’s see the reports

Thise definition of what it means to be organic, from this web site, "This forum is meant for the discussion of organic gardening. Organic gardening is most easily defined as a philosophy that stresses the use of naturally occurring substances and friendly predators and avoiding man-made chemical fertilizers and pesticides" should be all anyone needs to know.

But based on how you position your statements... wouldn’t the forum description say “... only use naturally occurring substances and friendly predators and not using any man made chemical fertilizers and pesticides”?

But instead this forum that we are interacting on (note: we aren’t talking about getting organically certified for sale) is based on “a philosophy that stresses” and is about “avoiding man made chemical(s)...”. These are not absolutes and should allow people to interact based on the very description of the forum with out being chastised.

I did not write that definition and it was here when I started on these forums many years ago. If you cannot work within that definition then you are not organic. That definition has nothing to do with being certified or not.

First, that subtext is in reference to the Organic Gardening forum, not the Organic Lawn Care forum. And the word "avoid" does not translate to "prohibited from any use" - it means to refrain from using, which the vast majortity of those who practice organic lawn care do strive to do. However, this is not a perfect world and perfect soultions do not exist. We do what we need to do to make things work.

You still have not responded with what 'standards' exist that are supposed to be followed so religiously and how a one-time use of non-organic methods is able to negate any previous organic practices. Until you can and do, you are just blowing a lot of hot air.

Are you saying there is a difference between organic lawn care and organic gardening? If you cannot meet the minimal criteria as outlined in that definition then you are nor an organic grower.

Of course there is!! Most folks who visit the organic gardening forum do so because they wish to learn how to raise vegetables and other edibles without the influence of synthetic inputs that they believe are best not ingested. No one I know eats their lawn!!

This discussion is really pointless. You religiously adhere to a dogma that you believe is the essence of organic gardening and expect everyone to blindly accept your opinion as the only one with validity and roundly and frequently debase everyone who has a different opinion or views the process differently. This attitude and very narrow vision is not doing the organic gardening philosophy any favors, turns people off and sends them away from discussions that could be helpful and encouraging to them and makes you come off looking like a crackpot.

btw, you are not the god of all things related to organic gardening and you do NOT get to tell me or anyone else what constitutes being an organic gardener. Don't put yourself in such a lofty position.........you haven't earned the right!!

That you say it is okay to use synthetic products says you are not an organic grower in any sense, gardengal. It is not okay for an organic grower to use any synthetic product in the garden or yard and doing so makes that garden or yard not organic for a period of time no matter what the apologists for the synthetic products attempt to justify.

I will defend organic growing principles against incursions by thos seeking to destroy them for as long as I can.

kimmq/kimmsr, we can go at this as long as you like, although the more you persist the more you turn away new, organically trending gardeners with your belligerence and your extremely narrow viewpoint.

What you have stated above - "It is not okay for an organic grower to use any synthetic product in the garden or yard and doing so makes that garden or yard not organic for a period of time" - is only your narrow interpretation and opinion. Period. Unless one is attempting to gain certified organic status - hardly likely in a lawn care situation - there are NO rules about organic gardening - only preferred methods to follow. And unless I am mistaken and all personal liberties have been halted, every individual can elect as to how closely they adhere to those preferred methods.

Does the selection of a non-organic product for a one-time use negate any organic results, "destroy" an organic garden for a proscribed length of time or make the gardener "not an organic grower in any sense"? Of course not!! It only means that both the gardener and the garden are not 100% organic. This is not an either/or situation. It is far better to be 10% organic than not at all and the more one follows organic methodology, even better.

No one is trying to "destroy" organic gardening principles and methodology. Only to point out that the world is not black and white and sometimes complete, blind adherence to an organic philosophy is not going to produce the best gardening results. It is the individual gardener that gets to choose how much they personally feel the need to divert from 100% organic practices......or not. YOU do not get to decide nor do you have the right to chastize or label them if they choose to do so.

Those that defend the use of synthetics remind me of the apologists the tobacco industry used back when they were denying that tobacco use caused cancer. There is more and more evidence becoming available that many of those synthetic plant poisons are carcinogens and contrary to what the manufactures have assured us more and more of them are showing up in the foods we eat.

You, and others, may preach your not organic philosophy here and elsewhere but I will continue to point out that you are not organic.

Kimmq do you only buy organic food?

"There is more and more evidence becoming available that many of those synthetic plant poisons are carcinogens and contrary to what the manufactures have assured us more and more of them are showing up in the foods we eat."

Once again, this is the Organic Lawn Care forum and a one time usage of a "synthetic plant poison" - most knowledgeable folks refer to them by the far less inflammatory and proper term of 'herbicide' - is unlikely to create any carcinogenic situations uness you happen to eat your lawn. Or bathe in the stuff. Let's get real here...........:-)) That is a completely specious argument!!

And kimmq, you might notice the OP has not come back to this thread. Your nonsense rhetoric is very likely to blame for that!!

gardengal48 if OP is original poster I did on the 12th. it probably got lost in the spirited debate :). here is my post from then.

dchall_san_Antonio I have Kentucky bluegrass. It's mostly dandelions I deal with. Spring and fall is when I get hit hardest. I hand pull the weeds for the most part and I am not looking for the perfect lawn but was curious if using some synthetic weed killer/preventer would ruin what I've done organically the last five years.

This question sprung from a conversation with a friend who uses Turftrust products and listens to a show called garden sense I believe. He uses those products along with some organic products.

Joe, I hope you got the answer you were looking for :-) And sorry your post got misdirected in the wrong direction. Some folks are just too dogmatic for their own good!!

This topic comes up now and then on the new and old site here.

Technically using synthetics takes you out of fully organic gardening categories but it certainly won't hurt your soil if you do it now and then and don't go berserk with it.

For example, fertilizing your lawn one time every couple of years with synthetic lawn fertilizer will ultimately add organic matter to your soil when you mulch mow the increased growing grass clippings.

But..........you have put synthetics into the soil and it takes time for the microbes to cycle those synthetics out along with rain run off, etc.

It certainly isn't the end of the world but you are not technically fully growing organic.

Oh geez, it has been a while since I posted here and forgot we cannot edit our posts.

I forgot to mention that FWIW, studies have shown that continued mulch mowing of maple and oak leaves into the soil have diminished weeds in the lawn when done consistently each autumn.

I can't remember why this occurs but people conducting studies on mulch mowing leaves into the lawn can have this detrimental effect on weeds over the long term.

Just something to consider.

This study indicated that all leaves reduce dandelion populations in KB grass but apparently maple and oak leaves had the best effect.

http://www.stma.org/sites/stma/files/Technical_Resources/mulched_leaves_reduce_dandelions_in_k_blue.pdf

David and GG are awesome.