There is a lot of ground between flirting and sterile environment. You set up a false dichotomy, seemingly to support an agenda.

Somehow this seems appropriate here:. https://medium.com/@annevictoriaclark/the-rock-test-a-hack-for-men-who-dont-want-to-be-accused-of-sexual-harassment-73c45e0b49af

^^^^^ Yes.

All this talk of men and sexual harassment makes me want to write thank you notes to the many men who took the time to mentor me and never cross any lines- I honestly had no idea how special those guys were and I was in a highly competitive business where looks were prized (network news.)

I think the tone of your post is unnecessarily confrontational but I had similar thoughts. Not about work conversations. In your situation, the guy who "turns" the conversation is always wrong. Sexual conversations at work are always inappropriate. And a woman should be able to chat around the water cooler without worrying about some guy talking about the boobs of a woman on a television show.

I was wondering about other grey areas. People who work together do date and marry. Professors date and marry students. At parties or bars, guys randomly kiss women they are attracted to and some women are attracted right back. Or guys ask a girl for a date five times and she finally gives in and they eventually get married.

A guy still making physical advances after the woman says "no", is in the wrong. And the guy that I knew who came up behind me at a party and pushed his erection in my rear was obviously wrong.

But, the guy friend who surprised me by giving me a sweet kiss didn't make my hackles rise. Maybe for another woman it would? For a guy who wants to do the right thing, the right thing can be hard to figure out.

Well,I guess we could talk about hypothetical situations where there could be a misunderstanding or behavior that is on a continuum.

I think many of us have worked in environments that are far, far from sterile but not hostile. This not an either or choice.

But frankly there are sooooo many non-hypotheticals where it is pretty darn clear (anyone confused about HW's behavior? Didn't think so), that we have plenty to talk about and address.

I have never been in a professional environment where flirting was ever an okay form of interaction.

My corporate days were long ago, but what Fori said goes for me as well. Thought I would mention it since it seems to be a common misapprehension these days that such things were widely accepted back then.

Flirting and harrassment are not mutal. Flirting is respectful and playful. Harassment is intentional and is done in a predatory manner. If a man flirted with you and you didnt react, he'd most likely get the hint. He'd be harrassing if he didn't stop and continued to up the ante so to speak.

I think if a woman enters a group of men in a conversation and it turns to raunchy or offensive talk, I don't know that that would necessarily be conveyed as harassment. Inappropriate behavior certainly, and a woman (or another man) could say something about hey, I'm not comfortable with this topic. If it continued or if the offended party were subjected to bullying about it, then yes, it would fall under harassment.

I've worked with male dominated fields and the majority of the men are respectful. I suspect they don't use the 'locker room talk' amongst themselves at work anyway. The times where it was harassment, it was absolutely endemic and I don't think there were any men in that place who were not party to the vile that went on. Honestly, there was even a homosexual male there who joined in at times. So that makes me think that sexual harassment isn't a 'sexual' thing at all but a power trip.

I worked for 34 years in the law enforcement field (non sworn). Our policy was that NONE of it is appropriate for the workplace because, even if the persons involved are "ok" with sexual bantering, flirting, off-color jokes, etc., someone else could overhear and not be ok with it. It is also not incumbent upon the offended to stop it. It is up to the offender to restrain himself or herself. I will say that, in my early days of employment, I received many unrequested neck massages, little notes, hands around my waist, etc. (once, a high ranking officer brought a sexual aid in to show off). Non-sworn employees were also told that, if it came to firing a sworn or non-sworn, the sworn would stay.

"I think if a woman enters a group of men in a conversation and it turns to raunchy or offensive talk, I don't know that that would necessarily be conveyed as harassment."

It can be.

Harassment becomes unlawful where 1) enduring the offensive conduct becomes a condition of continued employment, or 2) the conduct is severe or pervasive enough to create a work environment that a reasonable person would consider intimidating, hostile, or abusive.

A judgment is involved, as you can tell by the terms.

The worst harassment, to me, is when someone with power or influence over your life can make things difficult for you if you reject that person. The consequences can be devastating to your emotions, as well as your relationships with others who know of this situation and do nothing. The consequences can have a negative impact on your livelihood. It doesn't have to be just an employer, or potential employer. It's anyone with the power to change your life.

While having a strange man or friend make rude remarks is harassment, you can usually walk away safely. That's not flirting. That's still harassment, but difficult to pursue legally as it's difficult to prove damages. If it's a friend harassing you, then get that person out of your life and be sure you tell them why. Don't let them try to convince you that you're too sensitive.

Flirting is light hearted, with no pressure, no expectations from you for "quid pro quo" or any favors. It's fun, not threatening in any way, It's an invitation to explore/start the relationship, to let you know you're attractive to the deliverer. It's up to you to decide how to respond.

It is also not incumbent upon the offended to stop it...

While it may not be upon the offended to stop it, I would think it would be on the offended to speak up about their discomfort.

I mean one time at work, a manager made a comment where he used the term "zilch". Whether the admin knew what that meant or not, she took offense and reported him to HR without telling him first that she was upset by the comment. I think that's unfair. Clearly different people have different levels of sensitivity and it should be incumbent on the offended to at least inform the others of their sense about it. It's when they don't stop despite one's expressed discomfort that it becomes harassment.

Our sexual harassment training stressed the impetus was on the offender to refrain. YMMV. It sounds as if you are referring to an offense other than sexual. As far as workplace sexual harrassment, not every one comes from the same place and it is actually unfair to presume everyone should have the mental strength to confront harrassment, either directly or indirectly, because you do. There exists no need for confrontation if everyone acts professionally in the workplace, and that was the focus of our training. I agree that position flip flops outside the workplace. If I am offended by someone in a social gathering, then I should be the one to speak up or walk away. The reality is, an offense is defined by the offended, not the offender.

The premise of this post reminds me of a great analogy I heard once, regarding men claiming that they couldn't always tell if a woman welcomed their sexual advances or not. Mixed signals and all that. "Pretend you've offered a woman a cup of tea," they were told. "If you go and get the tea ready, and you come back, and she's fallen asleep on the couch, would you pry her mouth open and forcefully pour the cup of tea down her throat? She DID say she wanted it." Suddenly becomes very clear.

Zilch? Did I miss something with the etymology of that word?

I work in a professional environment where I am never made to feel uncomfortable. I also don't wear makeup or anything so I probably avoid a lot of the boneheaded harassment that more conventionally attractive women suffer.

That said, I'd say I work with some men who are generically a bit flirtatious, I can think of one in particular. They seem to just enjoy women and their company and are extra friendly. But it seems very light and kindhearted. I'm trying to think of an example of what they would say, just something like being very warm when asking "how are ya doin today?" or maybe a little oversolicitous. Nothing creepy. I think the difference is some people who are generally flirtatious are doing it to make the receiver feel good and they would do that with anyone. Where creepy people turn interactions to make themselves feel good or powerful without considering the effect on the receiver.

I have worked in the past in male dominated environments (landscaping, factory, farming) but they were generally unionized and that cut down a bit on the crud. I remember one fella wouldn't let me (hale and hearty 20 year old) shovel mulch because it wasn't ladylike so he just about killed himself (out of shape 60 year old) shoveling a truckload of mulch in the high summer heat. My view was, "your funeral bud."