I know what you're saying Mr. P!!

This happens to my Wife & DD. They frequently go into Nordstrom's "Salon Shoes" area in MOA. This may sound weird, but my DD is tall, slender, longer hair, & all leg, like her Grandma. IMO, she's quite sriking! Wearing heels, she stares me straight in the eye, & I'm 6'3"!!!

Anyhoo....my Wife dressed plainly, shorts, tennis-elbow, plain shirt. DD had a dressy shorts-outfit on, & Prada flats. My Wife says they always do a quick glance at the footwear, etc. She was subtly watching for it a few different times. DW was pretty much ignored. DD however, attracted all kinds of attention from the Sales-staff! Shocker! ;-)

Over the years now, DD has a dozen or more "Salon" shoes, flats, heels...... Prada, Miu-Miu, Gucci, Louboutin, Jimmy Choo, Valentino. She's a sharp looking Lady.

Couple years ago, I surprised DW with a nice black pair of Jimmy-Choo heels!

So....yes....right or wrong, what Mr. P. says is 100% true!

Faron

The assumption is that you got treated with compassion due to the way you were dressed. With a tan dress raincoat did anyone observe your belt or hankie? I think the way you carry yourself must have played into the equation, with a little help from the BB pants and the quality shoes (how special, bet your dad would be happy to know you are wearing them.) People do judge us by the way we present ourselves. It is sad to think that in your scrubs and sneakers you would not have received the same tolerance and compassion, but I get it.

I have one young adult child that drives me to distraction concerning the topic. She wears the most ridiculous things and doesn't care if they don't fit or if the shirt has a big stain or whatever. A year or two I gave up and decided to just keep my mouth shut and let the world do my talking for me.

Recently she had to fly during a dicey weather period. I broke my rule and said "make sure you look respectable when you go to the airport". She started on her soapbox about how people shouldn't judge looks, blah, blah, blah.

I told her if she gets bumped and needs help getting a seat, she's more likely to get help if she doesn't look like a street person. She was quiet but I saw the light bulb go off in her head. She did end up wearing something that didn't make me cringe.

No surprise really. I do like your description and am sure you looked dapper.

Nice that you wear the same size shoe that your dad did.

Funny story: When oldest DD was in out of state college in Wisconsin, she convinced us to buy her a car!

We went a look at used cars and wound up buying a CRV.

While filling out the paper work I asked, "Did you expect us to buy a car today?" He said he long ago stopped trying to predict."

then I said, "I guess this happens often on visiting day." He said "No. In all his years this was a first."

ETA: d_gw we must have the same daughter! Oldest was similar, except what I began to notice was that she was a few years ahead of what was going to happen next. Those horrid torn jeans come to mind. Another hilarious one: she "stole" DH's very. old Land End flannel shirts. A year later these same old shirts were being passed off as vintage at Urban Outfitter.

But, she also had "the homeless look" which never did her any favors.

Hmm, I wonder. Yeah, if you were buying a car or something, but as a person who occasionally has been taken for a street person in the past when out in my walking clothes, I find that there is an incredible amount of kindness and generosity in the world that pays no attention to things like that, and isn't even really aware of it.

Folks here think people must have done those things because they recognize you have nice shoes because they are mostly from the class that can tell the difference and such things are definitely on their radar all the time, but I assure you I've seen folks be every bit as nice to people in worn-out, dirty, generic sneakers. And it's usually people who would not have a clue as to what "cordovan" even means, who are the kindest.

People "pay it forward" in the stores here all the time and it doesn't seem to matter who the person behind them is.

writersblock, that is heartwarming and I want to believe that all people would behave that way. Remind me where you live. Sadly in my world (Boston) and in Pal's city that is not often the case.

Writersblock, I have also been mistaken for someone who is down on their luck particularly when I had studio space in a marginal part of my city and was working in a medium where I tended to get dirty (I had a sandblaster).

It's no so much that I think people recognize the value of the shoes necessarily, but you can tell these shoes are something out of the ordinary and that they have been taken extreme care of for Years. The leather is luminous. I've read that one of the ways that you can tell if someone is "genuine" or an "imposter" is by their shoes. Such as if someone is well dressed but they are a confidence artist for example, their too new or their cheaper than they should be shoes will give them away.

And I agree that people in grocery stores, even here will often be helpful to someone else. But I was in a convenience store and convenience stores here are, in general, gathering spots for the homeless, the mentally ill, and those who visit various drug programs in our city. That particular convenience store is near the confluence of two subway lines and there will be dozens of homeless outside every day. My more local convenience store is populated every day by more than a dozen women who are in town to get their methadone and have childcare lessons. It's not the same as being in a "Store" at all. You run a gauntlet of people either directly asking for money or trying out some story about how they lost their wallet, their transpass, their ride home, were abandoned by a friend on their way to another city, on a daily basis.

I guarantee you I was offered money because I did not look like I needed it or wanted it from anybody.

The other thing that I have experienced is this. I do not own a car. I work in a far suburb one day a week and walk the last mile to work along the road. Particularly on the last leg of the trip I rarely see anyone at all walking and if I do, they are not white, and they probably work in commercial housekeeping or custodial. People have stopped and offered me rides, and several times theirs has been the assumption that my car must be broken down somewhere because I am white, and white people in this suburbs have cars and do not walk anywhere voluntarily. I doubt the black and latino people walking along that road have had as many offers of rides as I have, or have been approached as if they are walking only because their car is broken down.

Those shoes of your Dad's are incredible! The incredible quality and care that allow you to wear them today is amazing. Very interesting story, and when I used to wear beautiful suits and shows to work, I got the same treatment. Now, I dress for comfort and blend into the crowd...what stands for a crowd in Maine, that is.

I don’t pop into these types of threads often, but I have a similar story about my husbands uncle who owned a lot of rental real estate and also had a video poker and video games business. He was loaded but dressed like he had no money at all.

one day he went to a jewelry store to buy his wife an anniversary ring. No one wanted to help him. He finally got assistance from a sales person and selected a very expensive ring and whipped out a fat roll of cash to pay for it. Needless to say, the salespersons eyes nearly popped out of their head. Nothing but fawning over him after that.

I have a personal experience similar to RNmomof2. Decades ago my husband and I had a new brand new 2 seater sports coupe (Datsun 240 Z). We decided we needed a second car and went shopping when our car was at the dealers for a day. We were provided a shabby beat up loaner and visited a handful of dealerships. In NOT ONE of the lots we pulled into did any sales person come out. We could see them in the large plate glass windows hanging around together and they looked at us but but we were ignored. Fast forward to the next weekend, we had our car back and revisited most of the same lots. It was so obvious that the salespeople were practically jumping over each other to get to us. I remember this vividly to this day as it made a such a disturbing impression on me.

BTW, Pal, I love those shoes.

Now I'm worried about being completely ignored when I go car shopping in my 2004 Camry. You'd think they'd want to sell a new car to someone who looks like she needs one! It's bad enough being female at a dealership...I'll take along my financial calculator for protection. That has worked in my favor in the past.

I love the fact that you are able to wear and enjoy your dad's fabulous shoes!

Here in the UK DH used to work in an interior design studio. One day a couple of extremely scruffy, down-at-heel guys came wandering in, having left their beat up, ancient vehicle in the car park. Assuming they were penniless timewasters, no-one paid them any attention, except DH who is the friendly type who'll chat to anyone/everyone. Turned out they were brothers and wealthy owners of a garden centre. Long story short, they ultimately had some design work done and when the time came to pay they arrived with plastic carrier bags stuffed with cash.....to the tune of several thousands of £££ ;)

I'm a big believer in clothes and the reactions they create. Whether we like it or not, what we wear influences how we are treated.

My pastor and a good friend, often looks like a street person, yet he is working on his doctorate and is profoundly self aware and interesting. He likes looking scruffy with a big beard and beanie as street people relate to him and are real.

I can do it all, and know when to wear what and how to style everything depending on how I want to be treated and what I want to feel like. In environments that are new and emotionally threatening, I tend to pull out my big guns, and they can be so subtle.

I'm glad Pal brought this up!

It's kind of a fascinating thing about us Humans! In a way, the same thing goes on in the animal world. People however, take it in so many different directions. We are, in many ways, good "Chameleons"!

I learned long ago, to ignore a persons outward "facade", especially in better stores. Sadly, like I related in DW/DD's Nordstrom's experiences, it still happens.... constantly. DW was gonna buy a spendier pair of Prada's there, but she got ticked-off at largely being ignored. Most of their Salon-Shoes are obviously $300-$1,000+.

Faron

DH recommended to my brother that he wear a sport coat if not a suit when he travels. Sure enough, bro got an upgrade on his next trip. He lives abroad so most of his travel is international. He's pretty charming to begin with, but adding the jacket gets him the upgrades. He also likes nice shoes!

I am enjoying reading this thread. Growing up, maybe because the parents' generation grew up dirt poor and lived through the depression, there were several grown ups I knew who looked kind of rough around the edges - worn out faded clothing and such.....but had really done very well financially. Some drove fancy cars, while others had no real splurge outlet. So I guess I 'm saying that I remember seeing a lot of this. But I totally get how we are judged by how others perceive.

I remember when we were first looking at homes, at one point we went to a realtor in a very upscale area.. I mentioned that I had family in such and such area. The realtor said "no I don't think so:". DH and I still chuckle about that. I guess we were dressed pretty down market.:)

Very nice shoes. How lucky you are to be the same size your father was.

I agree, and won't repeat what has already been said.

"But I totally get how we are judged by how others perceive."

To go further than clothes/shoes or cars with this, what is about about someone asking right off the bat what DH does for a living. Does it really matter? Then there are those that assume I don't work/make any money or that if I'm wearing a nice piece of jewelry/driving a nice car, DH bought it for me.

We raised our children in an affluent city. Best education and all. Working from home, raising children and having pets, I mostly wore jeans for years. If you go into most stores in the village, no one says hello or asks if you need help. I stopped frequenting those stores.

sheilaaus, we had a realtor say to us at an open house that houses in our neighborhood went up in price as you go up the hill - implying that we could not afford that house. When we left, DH nicely let her know our current home was larger and nicer than the one she was showing, and also mortgage free. SMH When we move to our new house, we will be back in this city. I am not looking forward to having any contact with people like this again. Especially the high and mighty.

Pal, do you think you would have been treated the same wearing scrubs and tennis shoes? When I see someone in scrubs, I assume they work in the medical field (have a job, earn a living - even if they might have student loans). I'd like to think I would help out anyone, but in reality, if a person dressed like a bum asked me for money, I would offer food instead. I've seen too many local TV segments on how much money the regulars in our area make a year, where they live and what they drive. Yes, they followed them home and watch them in their regular spots. Also talked to people that gave them money.

I think the thing about scrubs in my area is that they are the great leveler. We have several medical centers around and everyone from the physicians to housekeeping might be seen in them although attendings will often have street clothing and a white coat.

Honestly, I think a lot of people would look at me and say "housekeeping" before they would say "attending" because I don't have much of a presence.

And my dad would always say when asked what he did " I work out a the hospital" or "I work in the lab", not that he was the head of the department or chief of staff or whatever he was at the time, and I pretty much say the same thing "I work at [the university and college I work at] and in two practices".

Also a great many women within certain economic and cultural groups wear scrubs as part of their daily wear, I think, because they are comfortable, colorful and well-coordinated with all the options available now.

In the suburbs I think it attitude about scrubs is a little different: if you are white or asian and you have on scrubs, "doctor" and if you are another of the minorities "staff".

I remember years ago my sister came to visit me, and wanted to go shopping for some brands she can't buy normally, living in a much smaller city. DS was looking for the perfume "Joy", as it was very highly rated, which probably contributed to it being the most expensive fragrance, at the time. Sis was a very successful business owner, but preferred classic clothes, rather than designer duds. Being on my lunch hour, I was dressed in business attire.

The sales counter had no other patrons when we stepped up to it, but the saleswoman would not come over to us. She just busied herself looking at some papers, rather than approaching us. Momentarily, a woman dressed in high end fashion, came to the counter. The saleswoman rushed over to her, while we stayed waiting. She had spent about 10 minutes showing this customer various perfumes, not even concerned that no one was attending to us.

My sister finally said "Excuse me, but is there another salesperson who could help me?" The woman gave a resentful sigh and told us that the (young salesgirl) two counters over could help us. We noted that much less expensive perfumes were featured at that counter, but we walked over and asked if she could show DS the perfume that was only featured at the original counter.

The young lady said "Certainly!" and we followed her back there. It was with great pleasure that we noted the customer who had been taken before us, was just leaving with no purchase, telling the saleswomen that she hadn't found anything she liked. DS adored the smell of the "Joy" perfume, and made the purchase immediately. The resentful look on the face of the older saleswoman when she saw the younger one make a sale within one minute, of the largest bottle of the most expensive perfume they had, was priceless! Snobbery at its best.

the shoes are incredible

I could write several essays on the topic, really. Sad essays, funny essays. But you don't want my essays. I mean -when I'm about to say one sentence it's an essay before I know it..so if I start with an intent of an essay..catastrophe. Lol. No essays.

But, on a lighter note-I'll share a very popular Russian song, an ironical take on the subject of appearances, taken a bit to its extreme..the lyrics are a bit..bold you might say(found it with pretty great English subtitles)..but believe me, in Russian sounds harsher. So you get a milder version here. Still I apologize in advance if you find it all too.. bold. A bit unappropriate. It's entertaining though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et281UHNoOU

(put on English subtitles-the American version, it's better- in the settings..I'm not sure the link will take you straight to them even though I tried)

Some years ago, DH and I were bicycling through neighborhoods in our area when we came across an open house. We walked in, looking grubby in our shorts and sneakers. The real estate agent took one look at us and said, dismissively, "I didn't hear a car drive up." We told her that we came on our bikes. Immediately, she changed her tone, figuring that if we biked there, we could probably afford the neighborhood.

I think your observation is on the nose and a great jumping off place for many interesting conversations. But they would probably need to take place on Hot Topics. :-)

ETA, April! That was amazing. You always make my day. Thank you

Several thoughts:

- I remember years ago reading an article in which a reporter dressed differently /went to different places as an experiment to see how to best panhandle. He said his #1 money-maker was going to the airport just before Thanksgiving /dressing like an upper/middle class college student /asking for a few dollars to call home and tell his parents that his flight was delayed. (This was before everyone had a cell phone.)

- The most attention I've ever garnered at a car dealership: I was about 20 and went to the car lot with my stepfather. We looked like "oh, daddy is buying a car for his baby girl". People fell all over us. Joke's on them: My stepfather was willing to look at cars with me, but he never gave me a dime.

- Second most attention I've ever garnered at a car dealership: Two years ago when I took my college daughter to buy a car. We did go dressed well, which probably helped with negotiating -- and we ran into a stupid, stupid problem at the end, and they gave in immediately. Might have been because I looked like I could pay.

- As for looking at people's shoes, I have a moderately bad case of plantar fasciitis and am limited in what shoes I can wear. If that's really a measure of people's wealth, salespeople are getting a "false read" from me.

Pal, I had no idea you work in health care. My father was a doctor at Jefferson Hospital. Wouldn't it be funny if your dad and mine knew each other, although I think you are younger than I am. Philadelphia really is a big small town.

I have a very nice diamond and emerald ring as well as other nice pieces, none gaudy. Any time I go anywhere that I want to be sure I am treated seriously, I wear the good stuff.

My DD, her DH (at the time they weren't yet married) and I went to a dealership so she could buy a car. She picked out her little Bug and we went to do the paperwork. Because she was a student her BF was going to co-sign for her. The salesperson was a bit standoffish, especially when looking at DD's income and paperwork. Her credit was very good, but she didn't have much income.

Salesperson asks DSIL about his financials and he rattles off his 6 figure income and the look on the salesperson's face was priceless. He was a young (under 30), shabbily dressed guy and she was a young, tattooed and pierced woman. Asked to provide proof of employment and income, DSIL whipped out his recent paystub and explained his profession (he's a pharmacist). Needless to say DD got her car and the salesperson was quite a bit more accommodating (would you like a new stereo? We can upgrade the tires) than when we walked in.

Mrs. Pete, I have a bunion, so I have never worn overly fancy shoes or high heels anyway.. Thankfully I can still find nice looking, comfortable every day shoes so I haven't graduated to sneaker and "old lady sandals" like my grandmother had to in her 80s.

ded

My dad graduated from Penn in 1954 and did a specialty later at PittVA and then moved to a very small town where I grew up.

I remember there was a description of how people are treated at car dealerships in one of the Malcolm Gladwell books. The sad part IIRC is that black people were offered a worse deal and higher interest rates no matter how they were dressed or where they went.

I believe the point of the article was that the most successful car dealerships do not discriminate on appearance and put effort into every customer: some of the roughest looking customers pay cash on the spot, although these days when the profit is in financing maybe that’s not such a great thing for the dealership!

This reminds me of RuPaul's favorite quote: "You're born naked, and the rest is drag," which I take to mean that whatever you put on to wear reveals something or sends a message - whether intentional or not.

I have also noticed that people are more conformist in fashion on the East Coast than on the West Coast, as the West Coast is generally more casual and less judgmental - in my experience. In Venice, California, for example, no one is going to judge you for what you wear, and I loved living there because people were so free to express themselves. Also, sales people at high end store here are used to celebrities showing up in very scruffy clothes and are therefore hesitant to jump to conclusions about someone based on their attire. In NYC, however, I was accused of dressing like a pimp, and that has never happened to me in L.A. I was harassed in Waco TX for carrying a shoulder bag, which was seen as a purse (which it more or less was). If someone at a store tries to force me to check my bag, I tell them that it is a purse, if I see women carrying purses without being forced to check them.

In my speech class, the first speech I gave was on 18th Century British fashion and how it reflected society of the time. Britain had very strict rules about what one could and could not wear, based on one's social status. These rules (or suggestions) have someone made it across to the U.S., but the further west you go, the less effect they have. No one in California cares anything about wearing white after Labor Day, and there is never one trend here at a time that everyone follows. I noticed in NY in the winter that all men seemed to be wearing the same overcoat. I think there is a lot more conformity in NY than in California. I've never been to the Midwest, and I so know nothing about that. I've also never been to Florida, except to change planes in Miami. I have also changed planes in Minneapolis, however.

I had some shoes similar to Pal's that were very high end, but I found them at a thrift store in San Francisco for $3, and they looked like they had never been worn. They were missing shoe laces, or else they would have been $4, according to the clerk. This was back in 1980 or so. I kept those shoes for a very long time because they were so well made and did not seem to age.

BTW, I also was not sure whether Pal was a man or a woman.

Pal, my dad graduated from Jeff in the early '40s, so definitely not the same cohort as your dad,. We stayed In Philadelphia.

On the one hand I have a very strong sense of my place and how to "behave" in the majority of situations. (Which may mean different things to different people).

On the other hand I have little presence and to some people I am probably a non entity. In many cases it's quite helpful to be more than one appears.

But in some situations my presence seems to primarily be signaled by manner of dress. Some people don't need externals like that, something about them commands attention.

Just yesterday I posted an example of salesperson snobbery from years ago, and now this morning I experienced a similar situation, opposite position.

DH's father was once a large business owner overseas. About a dozen years ago, he passed on the gold Rolex to DH, that he'd worn for over 45 years. He was approaching 80 and just found its weight a bit heavy to continue wearing. DH would never buy a gold Rolex for himself, but wore the one given to him, as he knew his father loved it and had kept it in beautiful condition.

Currently DH is helping a friend with some messy home renovations. Our watch winder doesn't keep time as precisely as actually wearing the watch, so DH asked if I'd wear his Rolex for him when he's at his friend's house. Having a smaller wrist, I wear it in the house with a terrycloth sports band over it, so it won't swing around and get scratched. But if I run out during the day, I take the terry band off, as it makes my lower coat sleeve too tight.

This morning I decided to check out a new mall that just opened near us. Most of its stores are pretty upscale, but as I was already there, I popped into a jewelry store to ask about repairing a broken clasp on my chain bracelet. Imagine my surprise when exactly what I described yesterday, happened in reverse, today.

I approached the counter in this jewelry store, just steps behind a couple, who got there first. But the salesman (who I know had seen the couple get to the counter before me) rushed over to me. I advised him that the couple got there first, and he looked slightly flustered as he left me and walked over to them.

Momentarily, another salesperson came from the back and helped me. That's when I noticed that DH's large gold Rolex had slid down below my coat cuff, and was in full view. I'm thinking maybe that's why the first salesman ignored the couple and rushed over to serve a single customer, as my attire was certainly no 'fancier' than theirs.

Pal, your comment about "presence" is very interesting. My DD, who dresses like a homeless person and who I complained about up thread, has striking physical presence. My husband and she are not especially social but seem to lead a charmed public life based on freebies, upgrades, random job offers, etc.

Perhaps that is why she ignores my advice about clothes. It doesn't really impact her. But imagine her social capital if her appearance matched her presence!

I, on the other hand, have people basically walk right over me in public places. I used to dart out of the way. I mentioned it to my husband and after he observed it for a while agreed that it was strange. Probably because he is used to the seas parting for him. I don't dart out of the way anymore but am often bumped and jostled.

Sadly, we are judged by how we look and act. A friend of ours with tattoos, eyebrow piercing, those ear thingies that put big holes in your ears, and a strange haircut, couldn't figure out why he couldn't get hired in the medical field ... he's a former Navy corpsman turned nurse. Told him as kindly as we could that he needed to lose the piercings and the ear bobs (sorry have no idea what they are called). Of course, he wanted to be accepted for who he was and didn't think he should have to change. It wasn't until he got rid of those things and presented himself differently that he finally got a job. He gets awards for his job performance and patients love him, he is the same person but how he presented himself made all the difference.

This conversation becomes so fascinating I fing it harder and harder within myself not to write an essay..:)

I somehow knew palimpsest is a man

Russian-speaking folks that don't know me well enough can mistake me for a boy-spending many years "under the influence" of other languages with different grammar rules led me, at some point, to change how I write in Russian. Russian requires for verbs in past tense and single ("I did", for example), to have this ending that signals whether a writer is a male or female. This ending somehow got omitted, in my writing, not in a very conscious way. Just felt as redundant. New folks get really puzzled..soon they figure out I'm a girl and start asking me why then I write like a boy. Impression I want to make, identity ussues, maybe I want to be a boy, perceived as a boy? No, not really. I am a boy to a certain extent (I don't remember all Junginian terms well but it's not something special for a human to have...we have many parts within us and as long as we're aware of that..) I already have an inner boy, he's enough for me, we get along well lol.

With my family and friends from childhood, I try real hard to add this grammatically correct ending because once I forgot and a friend got freaked out and asked me:

-Be frank with me, please..did you change your gender??

LOL

I suppose I do have a presence.. just a bit weird one. I don't exactly fit-yet give that stange impression that I do. Not right away but people will accept me with my weirdness. I seem very non dangerous I suppose. (which I am, lol). They will be like "you're like us". And I know it's just one step for me from very high class blah blah people, and even a shorter step from me to destitute people. I'll fit. Whether I'd want to fit-that's another story. But there is a certain upside and downside to everything. It for sure widens one's horizons...

I was a patient for a year in an Arabic clinic when I just started my university in Israel-had to bring the uni the paper I'm enrolled in a clinic, knew nothing, asked passersby folks "where's the closest clinic such and such?"..they looked at me a bit strangely, and told me-right there, down that hill. five min, and you're there. It's Jerusalem, you know. You have many worlds within one city. The clinic was very puzzled too:) Yet they enrolled me of course, and gave me doctor who happened to get his degree in the USSR, same city I came from.I figured out the whole thing later:) I was a newcomer, you see. The doctor was in awe that he can practice his Russian. I got such a special treatment there I started feeling a bit awkward..like, he would take me to get tests regardless the others waiting in lines etc. Yet physically I look as all Levant does-Arab, French, Italian, you name it-so folks would ask me something in Arabic and I would answer in Hebrew "Sorry I don't speak Arabic"-that's were I got strange stares, again.

As much as I loved the doctor I changed the clinic after a year.

It's amazing even what languages and their nuances signal to us..and physical appearances come even before we open our mouth.

I was briefly a sales associate in a big upscale department store when we just came here..East Coast. Taught me to take Saks Fifth Avenue paper bag with me to shop..it's really silly yet works like a charm if you want nice treatment, or even if you don't want any treatment, you just want not to be noticed. You have a silly paper bag-you fit.

My husband does come from several famous families, he has fascinating family history, really, yet he dresses ..well not like a bum but. It's some sort of a pride upside down-not to care. He dresses up only when I beg him to. All his nice clothes(not too many of them, and should look very unpretentious or else he wouldn't wear it, which to me is silly-who cares if it flatters you?)-my initiative, my doing..his shoes are a disaster because these are very hard to buy without him trying them on, so I am at loss here. I still tried once-and they were too small. And I had to hide the receipt of course. He'd flip.

So ok..the no essay thing didn't work out that well lol. Sorry. I really tried though.

The shoes make the man.

I will always look at a guys shoes, immediately. I don't even consciously do it. But I can tell a lot from shoes.

I look at shoes, cleanliness and repair; style and appropriateness, and then quality I guess.

And my take on it is that shoe maintenance has fallen to pretty low levels and that many people buy shoes and barely touch them beyond putting them on and off and throw them away when they look bad.

Women's shoes seem to have lost their way to some extent.

I also look at how people wear their clothes. Are they hemmed/Do they fit? And I see a lot of people walking around with the threads that hold the vents and pleats and ends of sleeves together still in place, or the labels on the sleeves that are supposed to be removed.

And I iron.

I am always appropriately dressed in public and put together, however, I have presence to a degree because of my height, 5'11", and general attitude of knowing what I am doing and I walk fast.

But the one thing I have noticed over the decades is beauty goes further than anything else in getting attention. My best friends have always been drop dead gorgeous, over my lifetime, 3 of them, and my best friend for the past 3 years opens doors and gets attention like nothing. I am used to being ignored whenever we go anywhere and that's ok but the fawning, the attention that comes to her from men and women effortlessly is interesting.

She is also exceptionally nice, smiley and classically and appropriately dressed, Not dressed sexy at all. She just has a beautiful face, body and carriage and is also my height, btw.

penny, did you see by chance a movie "Moscow doesn't believe in tears"? Soviet movie from 1980 I believe? They won "Oscar" or some big award

There's the whole turn of a tale there (it's a long movie-two parts one) when the main heroine meets her big love, later in life-they take the same train, she looks at his shoes, highly dissapproves of them being dirty..he sees that, tells her "ah, yeah, I usually hate unkempt shoes myself"..:)

the movie deals a lot with the issue of classes btw ..even though it's Soviet Union with its false equality.

It's a lyrical drama with the elements of comedy..so it has this lightness of the being(c) about it even when sad. I probably recommend it.

I do believe you are right on, Pal. And correct in the assumptions people make about wearing scrubs too.

Our city has several medical facilities and it almost seems like wearing a badge to identify oneself as part of that community, whether actually medically trained or not. Having several family members actually in the medical community, it’s interesting to hear their comments when they run into someone wearing scrubs who isn’t remotely connected or trained in medicine. Sure, they are comfy, but doesn’t it give a false impression?

I agree with Lars about the geographical differences in this. I lived in the South during some of my formative years. There was definitely more formality. There, wearing Sunday best had meaning. At the age of 15, I moved to California. Things were exceptionally more casual there. As it was a military town, it was pretty easy to identify those in the high school who moved in from areas where make-up and fashion meant more.

In New Mexico, where I live now, things are even more casual. I am within easy driving distance of Albuquerque and Santa Fe, and in this area, often high fashion, etc. would be seen as putting on airs at worst or meaningless at best. Most physicians are dressed casual, in church on Sunday is pretty casual. When travelling different parts of the state in an official capacity, things go better if one ditches the tie. About the only place a stricter dress code reigns is in the court room and perhaps banks. If anything, I think the casualness has gone a bit too far, and wished there was a bit more formality for a few occasions.

Now, there is a chance you could be judged on your truck, but that could go both ways. Some would be impressed by the $65K beauty whereas others would view such things as crazy indulgent and be awed by that tank from the 70's. Most cars from the 70's would not get much respect.

I'm in the PNW and it's even more casual here. Here, the only thing you're judged on is the kind of coffee you drink, lol! Oh, and how "green" you are. I can't relate to much of what's been written about how things are in the East and South at all. I remember being admonished by a NE transplant about wearing white after LD. Really? Sept is when our most beautiful and summery weather appears. I'd never heard of such a thing.

I once dated a very wealthy young man (paid off his house, with his own money four years after college), and he taught me that people treated you very differently based on your clothing. Want to be left alone when you're trying to browse stores? Wear shabby stuff. Want to be seated more quickly in a restaurant, dress nicely. He often looked pretty shabby, on purpose, the first go-around when buying a house or car (often with cash), and the person who waited on him, treating him like a human being got his business. He even stayed with them throughout multiple sales. Say what you want, but when I'm dressed in a dress/skirt, instead of dress slacks, even that commands more respect. Don't get it, but I do see it as a reality.

(promising no essays was really premature of me..))

We say, half jokingly: "Beauty is a brutal force"

Yes, it is. It won't neccessarily save you too.

But I do remember people and faces from decades ago. Beautiful people. They stayed with me even if I saw them for a minute..they became, in some strange way, a part of my memories, my life.

I remember me being on a subway when i was a teen (and obsessively ironed my clothes btw..we do iron clothes of course in our family, but nothing compares to that degree of fierceness I ironed with, when I was a teen. I'm not sure you'd drive the right conclusion from that. You'd just see somebody in well ironed clothes).

I saw that strikingly beautiful girl sitting across. A bit older than me, maybe by several years. The subway was almost empty. The girl was this exotic, unforgettable type of beauty..the one that sweeps you off your feet. Everything about her felt exquisite..even a little bit other world. Magical.

Yet she was immensely sad. She was very pale, and she didn't care about anything, deeply immersed in her thoughts. She looked heart-broken.

And I remember my own surprize, at this huge contrast between her being so strikingly beautiful-and so immensely sad.

I understood, in my head, that beautiful people can be very sad. They live life, life gives you all sorts of things to deal with, and no feeling is final(c)

But in my heart, I was like a little kid, from that widely popular children's song in Israel I learned later, that seems to be children's song yet one can easily carry it through life because against our best jugdement, still applies somehow

It goes smth like that:

She's the most beautiful girl in the kindergarten,

And she has the most beautiful eyes, in the whole kindergarten,

And her braid is the prettiest braid,

And her mouth is the prettiest too.

And the more one stares at her, the more one understands:

-There's nothing to talk about,

She's really the most beautiful girl in the kindergarten.

And when she smiles, I smile too,

And when she's sad, I can't understand:

-How she can be sad, being the most beautiful girl in the kindergarten?..

My family never had much money at all. The quality of the clothes were more like K-mart or I would sew my own out of necessity.

My dad was a blue collar worker...at one point working for the--well, he called it--sewer system in our town. Every day, he would come home from work and the first thing he did was clean and polish his shoes until they shone, and then he would put his uniform in the washer in a soak with dish detergent. He never missed a day doing this. He didn't really do this to impress anyone as he mostly worked alone.

I'm kind of sad that we don't take pride in our appearance to this degree any more (generalizing, and there are exceptions of course).

My dad was a teenager at the end of the Depression. He had one pair of shoes, one pair of dress pants a couple shirts, and that was about it. He cleaned his shoes every day, pressed his pants and washed his shirts and ironed them when they were dry in the morning pretty much every day.

When he was able to afford a fair amount of clothing he still treated it the same way. He had some shirts in his late 80s that were his favorites and he had the collars and cuffs turned. When he started really shrinking he got 2 dozen pairs of trousers shortened.

The reason he even had things that were 50 years old is because he took such good care.

I actually have driving gloves and scarves and things that belonged to a great uncle in the 1930s that are in perfect wearable condition.

You seem to have the kind of fashion sense that I adore.

Have you ever taken a peek at The Fedora Lounge? It's just a forum, but the members love vintage looks and take very good care of their stuff (and they know quality).

My son happily frequents thrift stores hoping for that perfect Harris Tweed jacket...

He's a lanky one but I happened upon a fun coat with interesting buttons that I picked up for 8.00. After a little research discovered that it was an older Carabinieri coat designed by Armani. Fits him perfectly.

Anyway, back to you...classics are called so for a reason and you're very lucky indeed that you get to have and use things from the past...

Years ago, I once took a few minutes to put a good polish on my husbands shoes when he had a meeting with customers. He would never have done it himself. He went with several other colleagues including his boss, and when they made their introductions one of the clients said he could always tell who was in charge by the condition of their shoes. His boss was pretty embarrassed.

palimpsest -- very nice looking shoes.

When I had only read about a paragraph or two, I was reminded of "Chauncy Gardner" (Chance, the gardener") in the movie, _Being There_.

Wearing scrubs, although...... has gotten me out of a few speeding tickets!!! Police/fire/nurse seem to have a connection of service for the people.

It kills me when I go into boutique stores or really nice antique stores and depending on how I'm dress-can be treated so differently. Even sephora- depending on if my face is done or not. In my car or convenience store-- if I'm in pony tail & scrubs vs hair & make up done & whether or not men stare or try to converse with me.

I know I've heard of studies where children that are "prettier" are treated better by teachers & get better grades.

Irs really not fair, but it's reality. I'm a homebody now, so I'm either in scrubs or comfy clothes. Very rarely do I dress well. I used to have a clothes journal so I wouldn't repeat outfits!!!! (Young & stupid)

Very nice shoes!! I have fond memories of polishing dress shoes with my dad every Saturday! My DS has his grandfathers dress shoes & belts from the 60's that he wears with suits- classics never go out of style!