I'm not Corianne, but I've learned a few things. What are your current soil conditions? What are you trying to accomplish? Is this in established beds, or are you looking at new planting areas?

I might be able to offer some suggestions.

:-)

~Christopher

I am interested also. Good thread Cath.

Jin

They are established beds. The worst is a steep slope composed of hard clay subsoil. The builders changed the contours of the land dramatically when they built the house. Kim has suggested that they may have compacted the soil to prevent subsidance and I suspect that he is right.

Cath

Mulching, mulching, mulching.

Where are you, State wise?

Hi Cath, just a thought -- I have heard of people using cover crops with strong root systems to improve soil permeability. You would plant daikon radish, or the like, and (I am hazy about the particulars) when it dies and the roots decompose they leave channels through the compacted clay (or something close to that, anyway!)

Chris recommended that to me Daikon Radish. My soil is sand. But sand is great ..well, should drain well. I just came to know that mine is hydrophobic soil.

K.S. you got it. When the radish dies, just cut top half and leave the tap roots that will nourished the soil. It also help to break the soil with tap roots.

I have to thank Christopher for helping me. I was not asking right questions to Google. I did not even know until Chris told me when he ask me more questions.

Thank you Chris.

Jin

Oh also... I don’t get rid of any tunneling insects, like ants. Here... where it’s vey dry, they work the soil just as much as worms do. They’re my little helpers so they can stay. Yes they farm aphids, but I let the ladybugs eat them up.

I didn’t add any worms, but they found their way here and have multiplied like crazy. They love the dry creek bed and the wood chip mulch. Lizards also love the dry creek bed. :-)

Not using any pesticides or getting rid of bugs in anyway really helps because it’s the bugs that are doing the work for you.

I did have an infestation of beetle grubs once and after trying several permaculture ways to remove them, I broke down and used chemicals. So I’m not 100% permaculture, though I do try. I think there’s a time and place to use the tools available and there’s some wiggle room there.

Here is a link. I was thinking about it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://soiltosupper.com/simple-ways-to-fix-dry-garden-soil/&ved=0ahUKEwjn5vr2uYfZAhVCpFkKHR-rDIYQFgh9MA8&usg=AOvVaw0y6c3zzvDCmwSRcfwXXbxS

Jin

Cori Ann is right. I saw the above. I like the article. Has a lot of information about steps of layering. I won't have discovered without Chris help.

Have to try both Cori Ann's method and above one. Think they both are similar.

Jin

Cath in the backyard I am doing this to feed the worms... :-)

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5079726/ot-free-range-worms?n=5

Well, others beat me to my suggestions, Cath. Yes, Daikon radish seed is something you may wish to buy -- those roots are great for breaking heavy soil. Annual sunflowers also have great clay-cracking roots -- but in more of a net than one deep fat taproot. If you need more help in areas too densely-planted for Daikon radish or sunflowers to grow, you can hammer wooden stakes or tree branches into the ground as deep as you can, then leave them to rot. Used coffee grounds is great for attracting earthworms, which will help loosen the soil and mix in the other organic matter you add on top.

:-)

~Christopher

Also consider terracing. Farmers in arid regions have been using this tactic for thousands of years, as a way to prevent erosion of topsoil. In your case, it would probably also help increase water infiltration by holding the water on the slope longer (in a tactic somewhat similar to what Cori Ann is achieving by channeling the water into a sort of creek-like rain garden in her garden -- which sounds beautiful, by the way!)

I have a project photo album of the front, but it needs to be updated. https://www.houzz.com/projects/2088719/front-yard-slow-and-patient-remodel

I will updated again this spring. I don’t have the complete “before” photos, but the beginning/during photos give a visual of how I went about it. I didn’t use weed blocker under any of the rocks photographed, just cardboard. I do have to pull weeds sometimes, but it seems to be fewer and fewer every year.

I’m not a fan of weed blocker fabric, but I did have it used in other areas when I started paying others to do the serious work in the backyard...under rocks where I knew I wasn’t going to garden anywhere near it (not really pictured) and that has worked well too. I still have to weed there though, so honestly it seems to work the same as cardboard for me... and at least the cardboard helps the soil.

In areas where I knew I was going to plant something, and where I did the work myself, I used only cardboard and/or gravel or AB rock under the river rocks and that worked really well for me.

Cori Ann ( I apologize for the initial misspelling of your name) I have done the mulch thing forever and amend the soil whenever large plants go in but never thought of redirecting the water (and the dry stream bed would also hold water). Brilliant. I have a grass path that cuts across the hill that could be used in the same way. I will have to think about how to implement the idea because at my age the brute strength approach no longer works. I will try the daikon radish/sunflower approach. I have tried coffee grounds in pots and the plants died promptly. I really don't know why, possibly because of our alkaline water but it has made me wary of them. Still, outside in the ground may be a whole different matter. The drip irrigation may be a long term goal. I have been totally remiss on the soil testing with no reasonable excuse. Thank you so much for your detailed information (illustrated yet).

Cath

Where are you Cath? Makes a big difference.

I hope it helps! I really think that dry creek has been a huge help in my yard. If possible, laying it out with spray paint or a hose, then hiring day laborers to dig trenches and simply manually fill them with wheelbarrows of cheap AB rock or gravel is the way to go. It doesn’t take any real skill... just make sure to call 811 first... it’s free and people will come out and mark where NOT to dig with flags. Even though they probably won’t be digging deep enough to make it an issue, it’s still smart.

My whole body hurts just remembering about that phase. I think at any age digging trenches and moving rock is awful work and although I love the results, I would NEVER EVER want to do it again! I will say I lost some weight, built some muscle and got quite a workout doing it though. ;-)

Sheila, I live near Dayton, Ohio.

Cath

That is great, Cath. That might mean you have good rainfall and mildly acid soil. I bet the lasagna method of soil improvement would really work well with adequate rain. I think the point that you keep adding organic matter year after year cannot be overstated. You can still have a great garden sooner, but it can get even better in time. I think earthworm castings are a great addition. I hope to keep adding goodies to my soil until I'm too old to do it any more. Then, or before, I could do the 4 inches of wood chips on top and let nature take over.

Cori Ann...what great photos of your front yard project! What are the two big deciduous trees?

How long does the lasagna method take to improve the soil, and to what depth. Would it work if I wanted to improve soil down to 18-24"? I would assume no...it sounds too good to be true :)

Were you able to dig your individual holes easily?

I think it's really smart to amend the soil in the entire bed if possible, instead of holes. But, in a really large area that can be hard to do.

In my new rose garden (which is approx 60 x 80) I wound up amending holes because I was in a hurry and impatient :)) I've been putting on thick (6") mulch over the entire bed hoping that eventually the soil between the holes will be better and then the rose roots will want to spread out into the soil outside their holes.

If I was planting a perennial bed I wouldn't have done it the way I did. I would have double dug (I know that's no longer recommended, but I can't stop myself).

Does lasagna gardening work as well for loosening the soil? I know it's better for soil structure.

Rosylady -- plant some Daikon radish in your beds, chop off the tops before they set seed, and leave the roots to rot over Winter. You don't need to plant them densely as one would in a vegetable garden or field. Just a few here and there, and repeat a few every year in different spots. Over time, you'll have lots of deep plugs of organic matter in your beds. Google "daikon radish for soil improvement" to find more info. Sometimes you'll find references to "tillage radish" -- these are types of Daikon selected for extra long roots for soil improvement.

I discovered it by accident, when some Daikon radishes grew from where I tossed my birds' leftover sprout mix. I watched them poke right through the compacted clay where grass struggled. I pulled them out when they looked dead in Winter, and they were over 12" long -- not including the thin roots extending beyond the big taproot. I should have just left them in the ground, but I didn't learn that bit until later.

:-)

~Christopher

Rosylady thanks! Aren’t they cool trees? They’re Zelkova Serrata, a type of elm I think.

In my limited experience, lasagne mulching works great at loosening soil if you’re patient with it. It takes at least a few months, maybe closer to a year depending on rainfall. Chrisopher’s recommendation of the daikon radish is fantastic though. It brings the “lasagne” deep into the soil. ;-)

I, have added Turface which is supposed to hold both water and air and nutrients. It looks like it will loosen the soil. It's just that it takes so much of these things to bring about a difference.

Has anyone tried Biochar or know anything about it? It too is supposed to hold air and water and nutrients.

Cath

I heard about it just couple of months ago but decided not to pursue it. I do know Asians used charcoal for Orchids and here we used as moss.

That will be interesting topic and curious to know more about it.

Jin

A few months ago there was a thread on the Soil forum about whether or not piling compost on top of the soil really worked on the soil. The general consensus was Sometimes, but not all that often. The original idea behind lasagna gardening was not sheet composting to improve the soil beneath it, but to build up enough compost on top of that soil to be able to garden in the compost. In general, soil improvement requires digging. So improving a lot of soil requires a lot of digging. Cover crops will do that digging for you, but not much else in northern clay. Johnny's Seeds cover crop listing has a chart.

If you are dealing with a stable, steep hill, be very, very careful. The last thing you want is to destabilize it, and have it come down in a thunderstorm. It is unlikely that it has been specifically compacted, and it will probably need some form of plants to hold it down.

Hi Cath, if your soil is a Midwestern clay, it probably already has a good capacity to hold water and nutrients (all clay holds water, but some clay--here I am thinking of Ultisols in the South--is so weathered that it doesn't really offer much in the way of fertility. If your soil is an acidic clay, I'd be more worried about getting the pH where you want it than adding nutrient or water holding capacity right now. Also, soil organic matter is of paramount importance (and it improves just about everything). Cover cropping, adding compost, adding mulch -- all of those things will help. But I do want to add my voice to Mad Gallica's point about the stability of your slope. If this is a big slope at an acute angle, do be careful. You may find that your soil improvement efforts merely erode away (in which case, think terraces) and in the worst case, the slope could collapse. Our advice is amateur, and is based on limited information. I would encourage you to check with your county's Extension office about what sort of advice they can give you about your particular situation. Lastly, if your soil does end up being something like a southern Ultisol, then I would encourage you to go ahead and read up on biochar, looking specifically for articles about adding biochar to the type of soil you are dealing with. There are fabulous Anthrosols (human-made soils) in the Amazon (where soil is notoriously infertile) that are extremely fertile, which seem to have been formed of a combination of compost and carbonized plant matter.

I also think just improving the top layer and planting in that has worked fine here. My husband broadforked around each rose hole which probably helped. He didn't do it around where perennials were planted and they did just fine. I will continue to add organic toppings yearly.

Sheila....you live in an area with a lot of agriculture. Is Medford still considered the Willamette Valley? You probably have actual topsoil.

I live on what's called glacial till: what's leftover after the glacier scraped over the top of this island in the Puget Sound. That means we have no topsoil here and we have a TON of rocks. There is no agriculture to speak of on the Western side of Puget Sound, with the exception of some valleys near the mountains.

mad_gallica.....I agree, there is no substitute for digging, in the form of cover crops or sweat of the brow :)

I am in the Rogue Valley, 30 miles above California. The Willamette Valley is in NW Oregon. Here, I moved to a home that the former owner had put fill over everything and graded it. This was 2006 or so when he built. He was focused on a small vineyard the property has. So I started with subsoil fill here and had to take it from there. Some people down here do have real soil, just not me. Nevertheless, the lasagna method worked. I also put goodies in each rose hole as amendments.

KS, the soil here when tested long ago was pH6.5, just about ideal. It is the water that is highly alkaline. I imagine that it is fertile when/if? roots can penetrate it. Both our well water, which is what we water with, and the city water are unsoftened well water which has percolated 100' or more through limestone rock where it picks up a ton of calcium carbonate. I do have trouble with mulching on that section of the garden with the steep slope even aside from the balancing act of application. The mulch slides down hill especially after winter. And thank you for reminding me of the dangers of destabilizing the slope. I have thought of that but in the heat of gardening...well, I tend to be overly optimistic.

Cori Ann, yes, I was forgetting your "box trick". It sounds like a good one. I had a grandfather who dug in the organic matter from his meals immediately after each dinner. That was in stony New England and his soil was beautiful.

Cath

Land and climate are so different from place to place. I can only tell my own experiences here. Mulching alone has never worked for me; that may be because of the sheer amount of land involved, which makes it impossible to bring in enough organic matter. We've added over a hundred tons of hay to the garden, dug in or as mulch, plus all the plant matter the garden has grown in twelve years, plus whatever else I could drag in, and still the soil is very poor. The land is steep and prone to slides, and I found out the hard way that cutting tractor roads in it, or any kind of large-scale disturbance like deep plowing, provoked landslides. The ground drops and slumps on its own, too, without provocation. I rely on deeprooted shrubs to hold the ground at least somewhat, but if they don't have holes dug for them, they don't grow, and don't do their job of holding the ground.

Farmers locally are afraid of water accumulating in their fields and farm areas and channel it off. When it's dry here it's very dry, with cracks forming in the clay soil; but when the rainy season comes the ground gets sodden. Local reasoning is that water will get in the cracks, run below the surface and destabilize masses of clay, and cause landslides. This may be true. My own efforts have been to mulch the ground with organic matter and create a living mulch that will discourage cracks from forming, and grow all the plants I can, to soak up water and add organic matter to the soil and make it more absorbent. Let me say, this is much easier said than done. We don't get anywhere without lots and lots of digging and amending. But we haven't had any landslides for several years.

There were channels dug through the fields where we made the big garden, and we kept them, and watched as they got deeper and deeper and the sides started to cave in. I don't have a full solution to the channels, but recently blocked the first one to encourage sediment to collect in it and raise the ground, which is low in that area. I'm hoping to get a delta of good soil there. We plant shrubs along all our drainages so they can take advantage of the water and nutrients, and hold the ground. My not thinking so much about the dangers of water on the land may be due to our having had very low rainfall for over a year and a half now.

I terrace cautiously and on a small scale, mostly in areas where there are established shrubs to hold the ground. I agree terraces retain important moisture and nutrients; grass grows better on terraced ground; terracing paths also makes walking a lot more comfortable; and flat areas on a steep slope contribute hugely to making the garden look like a garden.

Our local native equivalent of the Daikon radish is wild chicory, which grows thickly in heavy soil. We have a vast population of native taprooted plants, and some of them are well-behaved and would work to improve soil. Others set too many seeds, like dock, yet I find dock rather handsome. Always, the plant dies and leaves the taproot to enrich and loosen the soil.

Mulching isn't adequate to improve the soil beneath. This is my experience. Recently I dug an experimental hole in an area that, when we started gardening there in 2006, was such poor clay that grass didn't grow there, only sedums. This ground has been regularly mulched for twelve years, with hay, with all the herbaceous plants that have self-sown there, with prunings and clippings of plants grown there and other woody organic matter I've brought in. As of 2018, there was a beautiful layer, an inch or two thick, of compost on top, and a further inch or two of nice-looking soil. Below that, clay. I've tried for twelve years to get roses to grow in this ground, and many other plants as well, with a failure rate of about 98%. I think the ground may finally be ready for us to dig deep holes and heavily amend them, so that we can plant roses (really tough roses) there with reasonable hope that they'll live and grow. At least the winter annual grass is flourishing. And the aromatic subshrubs we've planted there over the years, digging them good holes, are happy.

Final note: when one digs and amends holes in heavy soil, there's the risk of digging a pot that will fill with water in the rainy season and drown the plant growing there. There are ways to deal with this. One is to dig a channel out through the clay and amend the ground in the channel, so water will work its way through it. Also our holes are mini-terraces in any case: the amended ground has more volume than the original soil and is piled up above ground level, though it sinks with time. We've never used drain tiles, for example. But the issue is worth thinking about if you're dealing with clay soil.

I may be just planting in the top improved layer and not really improving my "soil" as you are all reporting. I amend each hole I put a rose in. Maybe in 100 years, my soil will be improved eventually, but for now I'm amending. You are really doing a wonderful job, Melissa, with all your challenges.

This is a great thread and many thanks to Cath for starting it. I've been wanting to comment but didn't find the time before this for writing the longish post I had in mind.

I've been working on my land for about 20 years now but this is my first -and probably will be my only-garden, so I've had to learn by doing and it's been a slow, slow progress. To complicate matters further, I haven't gone about anything in a methodical, logical way; I'm not that sort of person, alas. Reading and thinking about Christopher's way of doing things for example shows up to my own mind the fact that I just don't go about things in the best way at all, as a true gardener"should" do (if that even makes any sense!). CoriAnne's approach, too, is clearly logical and methodical in comparison to my blundering, floundering approach.

Only in the past few years have I really begun mulching in earnest, and should have begun much sooner. This, too, has been a difficult path for me; I basically "lost" almost 2 years of work combating against the badgers that systematically un-did all my work. Just collecting the cardboard necessary for such a huge garden as mine is quite a job, let alone getting the necessary organic matter! If Heaven grants me a return to good health, I hope to visit a man nearby and buy or trade-for-rose-plants a LOT of old hay: ideally I would get a new big load every year. I did try bark chips, but they are far too expensive, they are heavy to lug around (I found I can mulch a large area with cut grass/hay in one day, whereas doing the same with chips would take months, literally),they aren't very adapted to my garden, since so much of it is a sharp slope, and ,though they last longer than hay does, they don't last for years. Another thing: I'm getting this sneaking suspicion that it is best to use a variety of types of organic matter. I think that roses, like humans , thrive on the "wide variety diet". So I'm trying to use bought materials like manure, cracked corn, alfalfa hay horse fodder (with molassses) but also collect other people's garden trimmings,cut grass, etc, as well as stuff I gather from the woods when I have the time and energy.

Digging stuff into the soil is important,but so is just plain mulching: in one neglected area of my garden I put down cardboard and mulch in the middle of summer,and was amazed to see how grateful the poor roses there were for this simple act -I didn't even water them or anything, just mulched, and they clearly appreciated it. It's also a big help to just pre-mulch an uncultivated area; makes the ground SO much easier to work. However I can definitely sympathize with Melissa; it seems like the soil just sucks up the organic matter almost instantly. Sad to say, I still don't have a decent earth worm population. I wonder if the yearly summer drought has something to do with this: can they survive in totally dried-out soil? or does the lack of moisture kill them off on a regular basis? (badgers love to eat them, too;having those foul pests around undermined a lot of my work...) I strongly suspect that soil that remains irrigated either naturally or artificially is easier to improve then that of our gardens which must rely on what comes down from the sky during the rainy season; ours has to cope with a yearly "set-back".

Luckily I haven't had too many erosion problems,; actually I think my poor land was already fully eroded when I first started work on it. However I still have a lot to do about directing the flow of rain water. I like the dry riverbed idea; it is similar to the concept of swales, I think. I tried making swales on my land; they certainly aren't good enough to fill with water,but I think they do help a bit.

Bart I’m probably logical and methodical because I grew up on a ranch and a few things just stuck in my brain from a very young age... So I hope you feel proud of the learning you have done over the last 20 years. :-)

If you can befriend an owner of tree trimming service that has a wood chipper, they may happily dump wood chips at your place for free. The only drawbacks about that is.::

1) Yes they are heavier to move around than hay. Raking and smoothing wood mulch is an exhausting total body workout. Maybe a good job for a helper?

2) Sometimes the trees they’re cutting down and chipping may have large amounts of bugs like beetles, etc., since they may be cutting down diseased wood.

Depends on your attitude about it, but it still could be a good option to think about. It would be free and bugs aren’t all bad. Sometimes it could be good.

I agree that pre-mulching helps the soil underneath, although others may disagree. In my experience it improves the soil underneath in addition to just what’s on top by attracting more life (bugs, microbes, etc) that work the soil for you by burrowing and tunneling into the mulched area.

Also in my opinion, ants and termites are just as good as worms for tilling the soil from underneath in dry areas where worms may struggle. But again, all this is just based on my opinions and experiences. No formal professional knowledge or education.

its too bad we can’t train animals like badgers, gophers and dogs to dig where we want them too.

Ha! So true! since the nasty lil' suckers are so into digging...

Here in Italy people sell the wood chips as fuel for our wood-burning stoves; my guess would be that here there aren't specialized "tree-trimming services". The people from which I bought my wood chips in fact also do tree maintanence,big-scale-type garden stuff,maintaining woodlands, etc; there are other such companies in my rural area. I'm pretty sure nobody would give me wood chips for free. What's more, my garden is not accessible to trucks; it is necessary to dump stuff up on my road and then lug it down to the garden. 20 years ago I just did not think of stuff like this; if I knew then what I know now I might have decided to make the garden in a more accessible area (which, btw , also has better light; morning sun , afternoon shade...). Instead, I chose the spot that I did because of the stupendous view. If I did get hold of a big bale of hay or the like, I would have to bring it down gradually to the garden. But it would be much, much easier and faster to do than to bag up and transport the heavy wood chips.

Eventually I probably will have to hire help,though it would be difficult to find the right sort of person. For now, we can't afford it.

I might be able to get hay/cut grass for free. You often see large bales sitting around that were for some reason were neglected outdoors and are just rotting away, useless as fodder or bedding. The gentleman from whom I hope to strike a bargain of some sort has horses, for example; I'm hoping he'll trade stuff he can't use for some rose plants, or at any rate will sell it to me marked down.

I read your post with interest, Bart, and feel like it was my twin talking. As far as the hay is concerned, you pay for hauling, not for the hay itself, which has value only to a gardener. Don't spread it thickly: water can't get through the mats; you have to break them up. I find thin layers spread a few times a year are best. We're almost out of hay, having almost used up what we received two years ago. We have another load coming, fourteen 400 kg. bales, our usual amount. Each time we buy hay I hope it will be the last time, as the bales encumber the garden considerably. But so far, we've always needed more.

The reason I haven't been entirely unhappy about the "gelicidio", our great December ice storm, is that it left behind a huge amount of limbs and tree litter (as well as downing quite a few trees I was glad to get rid of). Of course I have to gather it up and move it. We're going to be processing that all year, with dividends in the form of improved soil arriving in a year or two or three. It's frustrating that areas that need the most organic matter are the ones furthest from supplies, though when we get the new load of hay I plan on mulching lavishly. I'm still waiting to see a fundamental change in the character of the big garden. I think that a point will come when the plants in the garden will begin altering the soil and other elements of the environment significantly without heavy input from me, but we're still far from that. We've gotten there with the small area around the house: the only amendment in the beds is organic debris from the plants that grow there, and the soil is abundantly fertile.

I share your loathing for badgers, but think they may offer one benefit: I believe they eat rose chafer grubs. I noticed a while back that there were none in the decomposing hay I was spreading, and think the badgers probably got them.

Haven't you been working on living mulch as well? I allow annual herbaceous plants in the beds, grasses, vetches, peas, and others, shearing them when they just get to be too much, but they make their contribution to the sum of organic matter in the garden. They're not enough, but they help. Untidy, of course. DH years ago sowed clover in the paths, and that was a brilliant idea. I don't know how much of it survived last year's drought.

We have a lot of young growth now, the little annual plants that sprout and grow in the winter and spring. There's a forecast of partly cloudy weather for a few days starting tomorrow, and the days are noticeably longer now--we've had a week or ten days of strictly gray weather, and when the sun came out yesterday evening I saw how it stayed light well past five--the Cyclamen coum survived last year's drought and is flowering, and though most narcissus struggle here, 'February Gold' is well up in hearty clumps, as is 'Van Sion'. Spring is coming!