I could see myself making an exception for that rose. Is it commercially available anywhere? I've admired it ever since you first started posting about it.

Hmf says rose petals has it for sale, and it was offered 2 years ago at the open gardens in sac

I love polys! They don’t like juglone, so I wasn’t very successful with them in my first walnut heavy yard. Right now I have The Fairy, Clotilde Soupert (which I’m praying made it through the winter/Bunny apocalypse), and Marie Pavie is on the way.

Jackie- your yellow is a pretty thing!

I have a few, but the one I really like is Tip Top. It's still a young plant, so not very big yet.

I took Kim Rupert's advice and grow 'Sunshine' in a pot. For whatever reason -- inherent lack of vigor, virus load, etc. -- it simply doesn't make a great plant own-root in the ground. Pampered in a pot, it works better.

:-)

~Christopher

Thanks, Christopher! I planted Sunshine and Golden Buddha along a walkway where I wanted roses that would stay small enough to not encroach on the path...no worries with either of those getting in the way...they are both still laughably small. Although Golden Buddha is probably three times the size of the twig that is Sunshine, it's still tiny after several years. Maybe, I should dig them both up and pot them.

I was thinking they would be more the size of the poly, Sweet Pea:

Etoile de Mai has been on my wishlist for a while, and now I think I have to go ahead and buy it!

Your Marie Pavie looks quite large, Pat. Just how large is it? I have three that I was thinking of growing in pots to nestle under a tall climber. I am having second thoughts now... Btw... gorgeous roses... as usual :)

I've been growing MP in the same big pot (which adds a couple of feet to its height) for about 5 years now. By spring of 2016 it was big, but not out of control:

I pruned it pretty hard this year and it doesn't seem to have minded that...but not sure it won't shot for the sky again soon.

My Marie Pavié has grown as high as 5.5 feet when I don'r prune it, but I prefer to keep it smaller. I prune 2-3 times a year to about 3 feet. It doesn'stay that small long.

I had no idea it was capable of getting as tall as Pat's! But Perle d'Or, which I formerly grew, could easily reach 7 feet tall by 8 feet wide, and did. Gone now. It was simply too large and far too thorny for the place I had it growing, all 8 of it in a hedge. I replaced it with 6 of the mannerly and drought tolerant Callistemon citrinus 'Little John'. I know, not a rose; but it is the right plant for that situation.

I love the airy grace of Cecile Brunner! Working to keep her at five feet or so. She's a big beauty.

Marie Daly is healthier than Marie Pavie here, and a little pinker. I can't compare vigor/ultimate size as I've grown them less than five years.

Out of love with the Fairy; deadheading is such a chore after a big flush and weeding around it is a nightmare.

Excellenz von Schubert is a divine color but the plants I visited had no fragrance. Must be more than one version out there as others say it is.

Perle d'Or is really a great all-round shrub rose; pretty color, healthy, great fragrance. My current plant is in a pot but I'll bet I end up planting her in the ground.I planted her at the foot of an arbor at my old house in Texas; the arbor had Reve d'Or and Buff Beauty. Have often wondered how it is doing but I know better than to go back and look at one of my old gardens. Too painful.

I have Cecile Brunner Spray and Lady Ann Kidwell. They both do okay here. LAK is still a baby. I expect she will put out a growth spurt this year. I love them both.

What gorgeous pictures! I really enjoy seeing other people’s plants. Up here rabbits, short growing seasons, and cold winters do most of the work to keep our polyanthas petite. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen one remotely close to Pat’s- stunning but big!!! Also the squirrels here are madly in love with Clotilde Soupert’s buds. They ate almost every one of mine last year! I know The Fairy can be a bit of a pest down south, but up here, any rose that has the guts to keep trying to bloom until the snow piles on it in December is a treasure.

One that has been healthy and mannerly for me is Gabrielle Privat.

Once upon a time it was said that there were two different versions of Marie Pavié. Just who said this, I cannot remember. But the MP that came from Vintage Gardens was said to be different from the MP that came from Chamblees. I don't remember where everyone else's MP fit in. I have the one (actually two) from Chamblees and have never compared it to the one from Vintage. I should, I know, since I sometimes volunteer with the Vintage Roses collection and have the opportunity still.

I have Marie Pavie, although I don't know which type, but I believe one was fluffier than the other, and I have the less fluffy one. Then I have International Herald Tribune which is sometimes considered a polyantha, Lavender Mist (recently pruned by rabbits) and Aunt Margy's Rose which is over 6 feet tall against a wall.

I have the possible mp, faded pink and it does well and blooms a lot

My best Marie Pavie came from Pickering. It was grafted on multiflora. In my cold zone it would literally spring flush 200+ blooms open at once, on a 3'x3' well shaped, mounded bush. The flower was the 'packed with petals,' form. They nodded a bit, and the fragrance, identical with Rose Milk Lotion, wafted on the air. No black spot, and not entirely tip hardy, but certainly hardy enough to where it was pruned back every spring, were its other strong assets.

All my other Marie Pavies were own root from various sources. Their flowers were looser, fewer petaled, less fragrant or abundant, and never gained over 20" in height.

If the finer qualities of the Pickering, multiflora grafted rose were due to its being grafted or to being a superior strain of Marie Pavie, I cannot say.

I actually believe there are other double, white polyanthas that look so much like Marie Pavie, that they are sold as the real McCoy, possibly unbeknown to the growers. This further complicates the pbenomenon of probable multiple forms of Marie Pavie that are floating around out there in commerce.

Pink Pet and White Pet are also great polyanthas I grew. There was no fragrance to speak of for neither of them other than White Pet which had an odd faint turpentine scent to my nose, only up close. Both were 14"x16" compact, clipped looking little bushes in my zone....blooming a lot though, with just about black spot immunity.

No other polyanthas I grew impressed me as much as these three.

I no longer grow OGRs, in preference for modern roses, but do miss the Pickering Marie Pavie quite a bit.

Moses

To throw another wrench into the works, and related to what Moses wrote, I read it's speculated that some of those "fully double" Marie Pavies out there might actually be the noisette Mary Washington.

The oldest reference at HelpMeFind does comment on the thornlessness, so if someone's Marie is thorny, then it's most likely not Marie.

Thanks, Rosefolly. Yes ma'am, Jim is missed constantly. I had to downsize rather drastically to smaller space and retained primarily what I wished to use for breeding. Sunshine, I absolutely loved, but it really does require budding to be a good plant. Kippy now has my old Sunshine standard (and most of my other polys). Schmidt's Smooth Yellow is a gorgeous thing, but like many of them, the petals didn't hold up to the heat and intense UV, something I seek in my seedlings. It went to Kippy, too. The one I kept and brought with me is Lauren. I had to! It's my seedling, carrying my middle name, I love it and I use it for breeding. Given more room and water, there would be more.

Bellegallica,

All mine were essentially thornless.

While at it, my Marie Dalys were nice polyanthas, more upright with larger, non nodding, and more open bloomed, less petaled than the Pickering Marie Pavie. Also, I found MD's fragrance weaker than MP and did not waft.

What annoyed me about Marie Daly was that it's foliage was annoyingly out of balance with the bloom, several sizes too large. When I first planted mine and saw leaves almost three times larger than Marie Pavie's, I was expecting flowers equivalently larger, but when the blooms opened just a bit larger, 1/2-3/4" larger, I was amazed and disappointed, both. Marie Daly is still a great rose, very disease free hardy...I suppose if I had not grown Marie Parie first, the imbalance would not have been so noticeable.

Moses

I didn't mean for my "mega Marie" to take over the thread, but learning lots of interesting stuff from it. My Marie Pavie came from Petals from the Past. It is basically thornless and not overly fluffy. I do have the noisette, Mary Washington, too. It was a band from RVR spring of 2014. Mary Washington is only about 3 x 3 now, it has thorns and gets more blackspot than my Marie Pavie.

Marie Pavie Blooms:

Mary Washington:

Barbara, if your EvS is from ARE, it's actually GardenDirector Otto Linne. I spoke to them earlier this year and they should be changing their name and description of it. I was going to cancel my order and get the real thing from Burling, but the "imposter" is meant to grow well, just unfortunately lacks fragrance. ( I also think it has thorns.)

I have MP on order from ARE, so I'm wondering which one she is. ) I love the Koster series, but they don't seem to be hardy for me. Cecil Brunner has had a tough winter as well, although that one BSs like crazy for me as do my Orleans polys. The latter are extremely hardy though and always bloom.

I grow Tooth Fairy which may be a poly and really like her. I added another fave last year with Yvonne Rabier and have ordered Lindee, so I'm happy to hear the good reports about her from Pat. My The Fairy cutting has made it throught the winter indoors so I'm hoping she takes off this spring along with my now favorite poly, Cl. Clotilde Soupert. She's looking pretty good after an especially harsh winter.

I wonder, down here where the estimated sizes of teas/climbers are useless because the correct answer is always GIANT, will a polyantha really stay compact? Do any of them have any fragrance?

Yvonne Rabier, MPavie, Cecile Brunner and Mme. LeVavasseur are all fragrant for me. The REAL Excellenz von Schubert is also meant to be exceedingly fragrant with a wafting scent.

I only have Perle d'Or, and it's not really hardy here, but I love this sweet little rose. It's fragrance is lovely.

It's about as hardy as my hybrid teas.

I have, though, ordered Leonie Lamesch for delivery this spring! Those sunset colours and purported fragrance intrigued me no end.

I am also interested in White Pet, Marie Pavie and of course others when considered reasonably tough and fragrant!

Steven

I love polys for their rapid bloom production and ability to handle TX summers. These are a few great ones that are thriving: international herald tribune, marie Pavie (from ARE & Vintage), Lavender Mist, Pookah, perle d’or, mr bluebird, Lauren, excellenz von schubert, clotilde soupert, cecile brunner regular, white & spray, purple popcorn, pink pet, little white pet, pink poodle, fairy queen, la marne x mutabilis, rayon butterfed, softee, pink chiffon, marie Pavie x mutabilis, Denise cassegrain, sweet pea.

Hmmmmmmm okay revisiting my rose limits...I wonder if any of the all-stars (perle d’or, Marie Pavié, Cecile Bruner etc) stay under 4’x4’ down here? Sabalmatt, do you have any recommendations for anything fragrant that will stay smallish in the heat?

I’ve seen Marie Pavie grow to more than 5’ tall and Perle d’or to more than 8’ in TX. I prune back two marie pavie’s to the 4’ range that are growing next to my patio to enjoy the wafting fragrance. The Vintage clone of Marie Pavie seems to grow slightly more compact with fluffier flowers than the MP from Antique Rose Emporium. Lavender Mist, little white pet, international herald tribune, sweet pea, mr bluebird, Lauren and Denise cassegrain have stayed compact.

I love polys because they blooms so much! I have three but have tried several others over the years. Not all of them cared for my long cold winters.

Blanche Neige

Verdun

Zenaitta

I grow only three polyanthas, Katharina Zeimet, Marie Pavie and Mevrouw Nathalie Nypels. Only Katharina Zeimet is common in Sweden because of its hardiness. It was the only modern rose to survive an extremely cold winter in Oslo, Norway in the 80'ies when public gardens had to grow potatoes for a season in many beds until nurseries could replenish their stocks.

Baby Faurax, White Pet, and Excellenz von Schubert. Agree that EvS has little or no rebloom (I think it wants a big haircut after blooming), but that initial bloom is fantastic.

Katharina Zeimet is so beautiful, but unfortunately it appears to prefer full sun to my garden's half shade (I also read somewhere after I bought it "full sun" for Katharina). Mine has never bloomed much. Sniff. I love this plant. Maybe I will give it away to someone in a cold climate -- someday -- but first -- maybe this year.

Little White Pet stays 2-3 ft tall in my zone 9 North Calif climate. I have 3 of them in different places, and all of them do that. I love them - here they bloom for 8-9 months of the year, depending on what the weather does. Always compact and neat too - one of the only roses I have which does NOT seem to want to take over the world!

Jackie

I agree about Little White Pet, Jackie. Mine is still young, but what a good little bloomer! The blooms are so elegant and petite. They go perfectly with the foliage and compact habit. I really like Little White Pet, and I’m glad to have you confirm that it won’t surprise me in a BIG way, if you know what I mean. That’s so often an issue in So CA. Lisa

Aunt Margy's Rose is fragrant close-up, a sweet old rose fragrance, but it doesn't waft. However, it has pretty pink flowers, and has had no disease for me, and even now is putting out new leaves and blooms.

I wish Aunt Margy's were more available. I lost mine to a cold winter and I can't find a replacement.

Quick! Email Burling! Aunt Margy's Rose is on her list as available. She sent the list to me about four days ago.

I got Aunt Margy's from Burling inspired by Ingrid, and it is adorable.

Okay, I admit that now I am confused with sizing but it can base on your location, location and location. I am not not worried about height but I do have two roses that is polyanta, Perla d' Or and Cecil Brunner

When I googled on HMF and Dave's gardens I get width smaller way smaller and some of you Rosarians have. So, here is my question, how much space should I give. 8 feet wide, wow ;)

I need to know before I plant them and short them of space. Thanks all you guys and gals. But I am kinda getting worried now.

Rosefolly, pls don't think I am hijacking your thread just reading through and I realized the sizes. I apologized ahead of time. Sorry Rosefolly .

Jin

Jin, there are three versions of CB: bush, spray and climbing. The spray and climbing versions can get huge, but I don't know how big the bush form would get in your climate.

I was thinking of putting Cecil Brunner here that is 5 feet 5 length

That is the measurements of the tape where I placed. And below is the width that is 4 ft 1 at the tape again.

Or should I put them else where.. any suggestions ?

Jin

I don’t grow any of the forms of Cecile Brunner, but while Perle d’Or can get quite large, it can also be kept smaller with regular pruning. It is a thorny creature, so that pruning can be an adventure.

Bush is 3 feet but 5 feet of spacing. 4 feet height.

Okay, that is a relief thanks Vap. I feel so much better. Did not dong on me on climbers and sprays if that is the case..hahaha

Carry on :)

Jin

Thanks Rosefolly, for your advice. I truly appreciate it. I will bare in mind not to freak out that quick. Prune with care and watch out for huge thorns . Got it :)

Thanks

Jin

Though I do not advise it, there those who whack the daylights out of both Spray and Cl Cecile in attempts to "contain" them. Believe it or not, it sort of works. Of course it seriously reduces the amount of bloom you get, but it has been done.

What a lovely little spot Jin! Here in MN I could get a few things in there, but in FL, with no cold dormancy things get so big!!! The only thing to remember is you will have heat reflecting with the concrete. I use it to my advantage up here to zone push, and please plants like lavender and rosemary that love heat they might not get otherwise(I’m looking at you Clotilde Soupert!) I’m sure the warmer weather gardeners can help you out with any special planning that might be needed to deal with the summer heat.

Sorry I'm a little late to the conversation. I can grow poly's. They do well, for the most part and are healthy and bloom a lot in my no-spray garden. Mine are own-root and most have few thorns. In this day and age of "Smaller Is Better", I don't know why they aren't more popular.

These came from Vintage:

Tip-Top- Pretty little rose that starts out pale creamy lemon with a deep pink edge (think Mrs. Dudley Cross) that slowly broadens as the bloom ages, till it is mostly pink. The buds have an almost hybrid tea look but the petals quill and twist as it ages till it looks like a pink dandelion. Mine have never been orange in any way. Broader than tall. Nice fragrance. Foliage is different; matte with a gray undertone.

Charles Walker's Mignonette- Tough little white rose of many little petals. In cool weather they are tinted pink. Remind me of tiny chrysanthemums. They have a nice fragrance. The bush has stayed short, 18" +/-,. but is wider than tall for me. Super healthy, able to rebound from bad weather, injuries and the like, resistant to blackspot for me in the South East. Think about giving it a try.

Anna Marie de Montravel- Blooms in bunches of little cup-shaped white flowers with a terrific fragrance. They really do smell like lilies-of-the-valley in spring on a humid day. It blooms its heart out during the spring flush and then off and on again the rest of the summer. They will pink up a bit in cool weather, but not as much as some of the others.

These are from other mail order companies:

Lullaby- New last summer, a fragrant white descendant of Cecile Brunner. It is one of my most fragrant polys, rivaling Clothilde Soupert in flower size and fragrance. In cool weather mine has a lavender pink tint. It went through a cold winter and looks good this spring with no die-back.

Marie Pavie- Can't say more than has been said.

Clothilde Soupert- Reminds me of an old-fashioned rose that has been shrunk. My most fragrant poly. Has a lovely blush center. Many people have this one.

Lady Ann Kidwell- New last year, a Cecile Brunner descendant that seems to have her size, if not color. I may have lost her over the winter, but hopefully she has only died back to the mulch line. It may be a more cold tender poly but I hope it will be more hardy over time.

Dubious Poly's

Baby Alberic- A wonderful little white rose with a lovely form that has handled the cold winter without missing a beat. Mine is always white. It blooms individually, not in bunches. It is a small bush but doesn't look or grow like a poly at all.

Polly Sunshine- A Ralph Moore creation that seems much more like a mini than a poly. It's pretty with soft sunshine yellow blooms that fade to cream. My least healthy poly, it struggles with blackspot and I've thought about removing it. Came through the winter OK, though.

Honorary Poly's

Sweet Chariot- A Ralph Moore creation that should have been a poly. It looks, blooms and grows like one with the poly toughness and good health. There are even poly's in its pedigree. The spring flush covers the bush with lavender blooms in bunches that nearly obscure it. A wonderful fragrance that wafts.

In Memorium

Mevrouw Nathalie Nypels- Sweet little pink rose, tough and long-suffering that didn't survive the 2nd time it was run over by the city utility truck.

Sweet Pea- Lost during the polar vortex

Sunshine- Lost twice. Seems too fragile for my garden.

Karen, I never thought about the concrete. You, are right about reflecting heat. Next week , I am going for ARS meeting. I will ask them . Thanks for pointing that out to me.

Jin