Wow remind me to never work with Nicole... if she is a “pro” her last statement is terrifying!

Nicole, as a client I insist everything be done to code and I insist on insured and licensed contractors and I insist it be finished beyond codes and in the case of tiling, I included industry standards in my contract.

A person who does not build things to code or industry standard is a hack whom should never see a dime of your money.

Ignorance can be cured. All that takes is education. Arrogant stupidity cannot. Pride in hackery is inconceivable.

Yeah, I'm of the mind that code is the minimum. It may take money away from my "dream" whatever but I'll live and insurance won't deny my claim if something catastrophic happens because we blew it off or didn't even attempt oversight.

The fact that DH and I aren't lucky people may have something to do with my Murphy's Law outlook - LOL!

Studies have shown over and over that people who are not good at their jobs have an exaggerated level of confidence compared to people who are decent at their jobs.

i think the poster wants to know how to FIX her problem....not start over. Making fun of her and saying how awful it is....is not helping her to move forward.

I'm sure everyone here is a perfectionist....a type A personality and a billionaire who can afford to get what they want. But the poster needs THEIR bathroom fixed.

Telling her that a half ass tile job that leaks like a sieve is fixable isn't helping either..............

Thoroughly enjoyed reading some of these comments..good times

Thank you all for taking time to respond. I had a licenced contractor in to assess my situation. we decided to remove the lower tiles, the floor tiles and also the feature wall including the durock. He then will determine if the entire base needs to be removed. ( most likely it will need to come out.) he then will waterproof and add a new base. We also determined the ceiling behind the tile was not waterproofed and is actually greenboard. I will have another pro hear tomorrow to get another opinion and decide what's best.

Tina. As entertaining as this thread has been perhaps I can help. Try this link.

https://www.ceramictilefoundation.org/homeowners-guide-to-hiring-qualified-tile-installer

It may also be helpful reading for others:)

nicole, with all due respect, some of us are trying to provide actual professional advice as dedicated tile and stone professionals. We don't live on HOUZZ offering thousands of comments on who knows what. We are serving our clients and our industry, hopefully for years to come. Why do we do this? The only reason we spend any time on this site is because A) We have a passion for excellence in our industry; B) After 37 years dedicated to tile and stone installation, we feel a responsibility to pass our experience on, particularly as fewer and fewer people (especially the young ones) are dedicated to this (and other ) trades; C) We won't be here forever and we have this thing about making a difference. And Tina, we would be irresponsible not to suggest that you seek, as we stated previously, a licensed, vetted, tile professional to assess your situation on site and advise regarding next steps. Update: Glad to hear you have new pros in. I see you have a shower seat as well so don't forget proper treatment there. So sorry you have experienced this.

The assumption that a “licensed contractor” knows enough to be a good tile technician is a dangerous one. It IS a step in the right direction for someone to have a contractors license. And insurance. And all of those basic things that all too often do not actually get checked.

But that doesn’t mean that she knows enough about a specialty job to do that job. She may. But that’s why you unfortunately need to educate yourself to be able to at least spot the “pain points” that the contractor may be lacking in knowledge, ability, or integrity.

And, some contractors may not be above board in assessing their skills. They may lie to you. Some even believe their own lie. Some may go to the trainings, and just not get it. Or they never get trained at all.

I’m personally attending a 2 day Schluter class this week to be able to keep my hat in the ring when it comes to industry knowledge. And I’m a 75 year old retired designer! A good tile technician will seek out training on new products and new techniques. The continuing education should be by desire. But nothing can create desire to learn when its lacking.

Just as no one can make someone want to do something the right way the first time. Or want to fix it when they find out they have made an error. Sadly, a lot of people are proud of their shortcuts. You can’t fix that lack of integrity either. All you can do is try not to hire them on the front end. And if they dupe you and slip through, get rid of them as fast as you can.

Sophie, You hit the nail on the head! Clearly this licensed builder/ contractor misrepresented his capabilities. Not everyone has pride in what they do. Unfortunately we believed in him. A very expensive lesson has been learned by believing a licence insures quality.

This clearly begs the question of how to protect oneself against this level of incompetence. Most people remodeling don't have expertise to determine whether work is being done correctly unless it is patently and egregiously so wrong that even a layperson can tell.

At some point, one has to take a leap of faith of some size - get recommendations and due diligence.

Not to hijack, but I am using a GC recommended by a designer. I am familiar with the designer's work because she did extensive remodeling work for my building.

When I ask her about shower construction and disasters I've read about, she is extremely knowledgable about what is necessary; what is required by Code and what is required by Code for my specific situation - high rise condo in Los Angeles.

She said that the Los Angeles Code for a high rise is extremely strict and the shower would be inspected three different times and must use very specific materials and technique.

So do I assume that between the City Inspector, my designer and the recommended contractor, the work will be done so that I won't wind up in my downstair neighbor's bathroom one morning :-). I can educate myself to a certain level but I certainly am not qualified to know whether stuff is being done properly - I am trusting that my designer will be my advocate - that the GC who is recommended is competent - and that the City inspector will determine whether appropriate materials and techniques were used.

You're on track with that. You might want to check in at http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/index.php We there deal exclusively with DIY'ers and people looking for referrals. Great tile site and VERY knowledgeable.... not that the folks here are not, and some share both sites.

Helen: bonding insurance

Jim Mat: The GC I am using has $1 million liability insurance and there is the standard one year warranty. I don't know how a bond would help. In my case, in order for the shower to be up to very specific Code requirements, it would be built properly and I personally don't have the expertise to know whether it is being done by inspecting it. Isn't that the point that one hires licensed plumbers, electricians, relies on referrals etc. and I would be relying on my designer who knows construction to also oversee it and assure it is being done pursuant to Code and specifications.

Avanti: I don't know how my reading about proper shower construction would really get me to a point where I can adequate judge whether something is being done right unless it is being done so wrong that there is no question about it.

I'm a professional in another area - I can tell immediately whether another professional in my field is competent based on their work product but I went to grad school and practiced many years. I wouldn't expect a person not in my field to have that ability to judge competence - they would rely on referrals and even if they educated themselves, they would still not be able to determine whether the professional in that field was mediocre or brilliant to a great extent.

My point - and not to hijack - is that you can take all reasonable precautions - can educate oneself to a certain level so that at least one can ask appropriate questions - but in the end, speaking for myself, I have to trust the "experts" I hired using due diligence to be competent and doing what is required.

Helen, The link Avanti provided would be used to post in progress photo's as I always encourage here. This provides you with trade specific eyes looking out for you. Those of us who take pride in our profession do not want to see folks getting substandard work as it harms our trade as a whole. If Tina had posted some photo's here early in her project this thread would have been much shorter and she would most likely be enjoying her dream shower now:)

Palimpsest, I was a conservatory-trained classical musician for many years and we always had a saying, "You're only as good as your last performance, and if you think that was fine, you're not as good as you think you are."

Thanks Creative Tile - I did not understand that it could be used as a pair of "second" expert eyes. That is really great to know.

As soon as I get the exact specifications for how the shower is built, I will start a thread. My designer was reeling off how it has to be constructed per Code but I didn't write it down. The only thing I remember is that "hot mop" is not permitted.

So I'll post the specifications of built to learn whether that is the appropriate/best way to build and then I can post progress photos to ensure that it is actually being constructed pursuant to the specifications. Just because the specs are correct, doesn't mean they will be followed or that they will be followed in a craftsmanlike competent manner :-) Trust but verify as President Reagan was fond of saying.

When I meet with a customer, I let them know that there certain parts of the project that need licensed professionals to perform them, I also inform that a permit will be required for the work, if needed. But showers, I find it important to look at the project, where it is located in the building, and what is the best building practice available for the job. I know my limitations and try to keep up on new building practices, this is one of the reasons I employ subcontractors who specialize the scope of work being done. I have come across work done by a person that was not done correctly and have worked with the homeowner to get it up to code ,etc. I also work in an area where a lot of contractors do not have insurance if something goes wrong, or they are a handyman who does electrical, plumbing, etc with no license, or insurance. This causes distrust of every contractor, so you educate your customer about your process of doing business and get the project maybe.

In this situation I hired a licensed builder. He has been in the industry 30+ years. In hindsight I should have spent as many hours reading these posts as I did saving pretty photos. I called the tile store and asked for suggestions on what to do about the poor layout on the ceiling as he installed without asking my opinion and I didn’t like it. It looks unplanned. Tile store owner cautioned me to babysit my contractor. Until then I never questioned his workmanship other than his disrespect of our home and his own tools. The quality of work declined rapidly and huge messes led me to have him pause. Once a flood test done by us (first one) failed I delved into researching how to properly build a shower. Only then was it clear he was doing so many things wrong. Homeowners insurance doesn’t cover poor workmanship so we are just out the $. Please be aware of what’s actually being done in your home. Trust your gut. Thanks everyone for the advice. We are tearing it all out.

When my realtor SO (who has a background in commercial institutional interior design) and clients ( husband who came from a family of builders) challenged the builders of this house over their use of non-waterproofed greenboard for vertical surfaces and showed them documentation from the Gypsum association and the websites of the various products as well as International Residental Code and local code their answer was "These things all say Should in so many words, They do not say we "must" and the local inspectors never say anything. We always do it this way, we are right."

Of course it was a battle of terminology, and the inspectors probably never even see the bathrooms at that point here, (it's lax and there aren't enough inspectors) and these bathrooms probably last at least the warranty period and probably until the house is sold at least once. That's how they get away with it.

What does your contract say. You might have recourse on labor if not tile costs. Did the builder do the tile? In my bath addition my GC managed and in actuality paid the different subs. he handled the tiler and insisted that the tiler replace all materials for the redo and either return the labor costs or redo the work himself. In my state by law the contractor had to allow the tiler a chance to make good on his work before claiming damages. Your contract could protect your investment but you might have a fight on your hands. Keep records of all work, payments and contact via email only going forward.

Helen, a performance bond is different than liability insurance. Once again, bonding insurance.

Roarah, The builder contractor as he calls himself did the tile and base himself. My only documentation is my photos, videos and bank statements. We did not sign a contract. His last day here he randomly cut approximately 40 tiles that will be scrapped along with the entire shower. At this point I’m hoping others can avoid a contractor like this.

Jim, I understand performance surety bonds in general. Do all residential projects involve that level of insurance for the homeowner? What is the owner's recourse when he/she thinks the work is shoddy?

Jim, I think this is enforced by the state/locality. In Tx, GCs aren't licensed. Plumbing, electrical, mechanical, asbestos abatement are. Surety bonds are~5,000 where I live but I can't seem to find my city's online. Those nearby don't require the same amount of liability ins but I know that my area is $250,000. There's a range.

Why did you not have a contract outlining exactly what was to be done, a payment schedule, start date and estimated completion date? I can see have a service contractor not having a contract with you because they are doing something that usually takes less than a day, but a shower is a big deal with all it entails and the detail that needs to be done.

FWIW, in California, a licensed contractor is required to have some kind of surety bond with the licensing commission. However this just ensures that theoretically there is some kind of money available to collect if one leaps through whatever legal loopholes are necessary - as a consumer - one might wind up having to sue to prove damages and no legal proceeding is ever a slam dunk.

Frankly, the money (at least in my opinion) for a faulty shower construction is the LEAST of the heartache involved with this kind of egregiously bad job performance. You are still going to go through the hassle of finding a new contractor to rip out and redo the work - there might be delays in getting replacement tiles depending on what has been done and whether tiles or marble are salvageable and certainly there will be delays while one finds a new contractor and goes through the process of obtaining estimates and signing the contract. For many people like myself, one would not be able to move back into one's home or condo because it is still a construction site.

This is exactly the kind of nightmare most people try like hell to avoid.

So again, for the average lay person, you can take the reasonable precautions of a prudent person but in the end, it is still a leap of faith to trust that the professionals one hires are in fact doing what they are supposed to be doing since it's not possible for a lay person to be able to know that things are being done properly.

And thanks for the advice on posting on the tile forum - but I would doubt that even the most prudent and cautious lay person would realize that this kind of resource is available. I didn't until it was explained to me on this thread and I am actually aware of that other forum and have read a few threads on it :-)

The best way to guarantee safe guarding your investment is to only use contractors who insist on contracts. Read over the contract very carefully and add clauses specifying the scope of work in regards to waterproofing and tiling methods. A huge warning flag and indicator that you will likely pay for subpar workmanship is hiring contractors priced below market value and contractors willing to work without a signed contract. They are called contractors for a reason and one working without a contract is really nothing more than a handyman...

well said

This was not a underpriced contractor. We had several estimates prior and felt comfortable with our choice. I’m hoping someone will see my situation and know what to watch for when faced with choosing a contractor. I learned the hard way. Here’s the beginning of our discovery.

OMG that shower wouldn't have lasted 15 minutes of showering, much less many years. My sympathy for this horror. Are you demoing yourself or have a contractor who is documenting so you can go after the original contractor in court?This should be considered fraud not poor quality work.

I couldn’t agree more! I do have a contractor doing the demo. I had our homeowners adjuster come look also. Our policy wont cover poor workmanship. Reason for having him in was he has no horse in the race. Every contractor could claim it was inferior based on getting the job. We cannot find any information regarding contractor A. Appears he’s not licensed bonded or insured. 2500.00 in tile is in my driveway in shattered pieces.

Thinking about it, it might be fraud. If he represented himself as licensed and bonded you may have more than a civil case he defrauded you. The problem would be getting the DA in your community to pay attention. I would consider contacting them as he may have a track record of doing similar things to others.

Tina, Post in progress photo's of the new build. We can't change the past but may be able to provide assistance in the future. Require your contract to state "Tile work according to TCNA standards and manufacturers specifications"

I will post the link again.

https://www.ceramictilefoundation.org/homeowners-guide-to-hiring-qualified-tile-installer

we are looking for a contractor for our shower and this post has been really helpful.

Tina, I am so sorry and know you must be beyond stressed out about this. Thank you for sharing your experience. I'm looking to redo a bath as well and appreciate all of the information provided here. Please keep us posted.

I second the suggestion to go to a Schluter class or look up the detailed info found here ( use Schluter as a search word) and in the John Bridge forum.

Even if you don't install a Schluter system you'll learn plenty about proper installation. . We did happen to use a contractor who is very experienced in installing Schluter showers and I also researched extensively .

Our shower test lasted 4 days ( probably overkill) but it was at least reassuring that the shower didn't leak.

I can’t express how grateful I am for every single response to my post. I didn’t have a signed contract. I had put my faith in the contractor to do what he said he would do. My advice to those who are planning a remodel is watch closely,Research products, google the contractor to find anything that is online either positive or negative. When you go to buy the tile... Watch the reaction of sales person when you tell them who your working with. A poker face may be a sign they have heard negatively. I was blessed to have gotten the right person in when I did. He has gutted the shower. We found more screws through the vinyl bench than on the tiled DRYWALL ceiling! The chances of a tile falling from not being glued properly were not as likely as the entire sheet collapsing from no glue and a dozen short screws. Had I trusted my instincts and stopped the gc when I sensed he was a joke we would have saved thousands of dollars and weeks of chaos. Thanks again for all the guidance and compassion.

My dream bathroom is now a reality! I was saved by Charles from 3R restoration. What a difference a knowledgeable contractor makes. We tore out everything including the ceiling and used a Schluter system.

Lets hear it for charles

Please make this a new update thread because many people ignore older threads

nice job

WOWOWOWOW!!!! This turned out amazing! And you have peace of mind now :) Enjoy that beautiful new space!!

Beautiful! Please give us details of the products used. Who makes that bar for the handheld shower?

We ordered the shower fixtures and as a set from Signature Hardware. The tub fill is also from there. There is no name of manufacturer on them.They are Very good quality. The rain-head could be wall or ceiling-mounted. Fast delivery as well. Tons of pressure and the body sprays can be redirected. It functions separate or along with up to 2 other water sources.

Your new shower is stunning, and you found a real pro. Thank you for sharing the update. Hip hip hooray for Charles! I'd be shouting good reviews and recommendations locally from the rooftops for that guy!