If they were so worried about it, couldn't they have supplied their own sink? Otherwise if the job is done as agreed for the price agreed, it is not any of their business what your profit is. We are at your mercy ; ) but the time for research is before paying.

Don't let it ruin your day. It is his problem, not yours and it is a reflection of him as a human being. You did a great job, you know it, they know it. The customer sounds like a jerk and I'm sure he's like this with everyone. Next time go with your gut. I know some contractors that refuse to take jobs because they get the sense that a potential client will be a nightmare and they don't need the stress!

i think it's natural to be curious about the breakdown of materials and labor -- but that customer sounds like a jerk.

Well, as a designer, I do business a bit differently. I can either do an hourly fee to "pick my brain", or if they are actually going to buy something or have it done, I charge Cost/Net plus 20%. I give them all the invoices from the things I have purchased for them, then add the shipping and my fee, plus sales tax. They know exactly how much they are paying (and I paid!) for each fabric/wallpaper/fixture/lamp/furniture. Occasionally, I used to get a discount on something beyond the usual to-the-trade; I did not pass this on to the customer and the invoice was for the regular price I would have paid. It happened very, very rarely - happens to big name designers whose work is going to appear in a shelter magazine; I'm not one of those.

Now, I have no overhead other than my time and some space in my house. I don't have a shop, I don't have to carry workmen's comp as I'm the only employee. I report and pay the sales tax. I also do not have to have a license or continuing education. If I had those things, I would add a higher percentage.

Most of the best design firms in my town have always doubled net; many now triple net. Then they wonder why business is lousy. When to-the-trade fabrics at the big name showrooms start at about $100@ yrd NET, that is some pretty darned expensive fabric. Most are way more than that.

My plumber charges one price for labor if he supplies the faucets and fixtures, and a higher labor charge if the customer supplies them. He told me he knows how much he intends to make on a job and he's going to make it one way or another. His game, his rules!

I agree that your customer was a boor and incredibly rude. But with so much stuff available on the internet - especially bath/kitchen fixtures and faucets - it's no surprise that he doesn't want to feel he was "taken" and paid too much. For me, it's just easier to tell them my cost and add my fee to that. It is very unlikely that they will be able to get what I'm getting for them at less than my net unless it's a discontinued fabric or very low-end.

It's your game, your rules, too Joseph. But you might want to think about changing those rules in today's world where clients typically can find out what things cost. Just up your fee for your labor if they provide the fixture and tell them that up front.

Last summer I worked at a local bakeshop type place for fun. Some people are just demeaners.

The guy obviously was looking to be annoyed. If he really wanted to know how much the sink was, there is this thing called the internet makes makes it pretty easy to find out.

I am so sorry you had to deal with that horrid boor. I feel sorry for that poor man's wife. I doubt he shows that sterling personality only to the unlucky few who work for him.

Sorry to hear that Joseph. You help so many people here that are in need of answers from a professional instead of a hack. We run into the same thing. Now a days people shop around and the internet is also a problem, but that in no way means that we are supposed to work for free on labor and goods. We are running a business after all. Good thing you deposited the check. Continue doing what you are doing Joseph.

We run into this many times in different ways and unfortunately have learned to have people sign for everything and not do favors. Shame.

My goodness, that is rude. And the "lawyers rate" thing is ridiculous. I pay for a service and the price is the price. If I want to compare prices, I do that up front, before contracting for the service. But it's not like I go through a mental calculation of "I'd pay a lawyer $XXX, so a new sink installation should be less."

As it happens, I paid less for my will/power of attorney/health care directive than I did for some electrical work in my house. I paid a comparable amount to have my busted water heater replaced. Maybe my lawyer should be charging electrician and/or plumber rates!

I guess you were lucky you weren't dealing with the guy who looks at the splotch on the inside of the cabinet and says, "This job is inferior; therefore, I'm only going to pay you 40% of what we agreed. If you have a problem with that, take it up with my lawyers. They'll bury you in court filings until you file for bankruptcy. Then I'll sue you for breach of contract and bankrupt your entire family. Too bad if your family got hurt over this." I hear that's how some people do business.

Good for you for depositing that check immediately!

This is not the point you were trying to make, Joseph, but I'm curious about the $2500 you spend in advertising. What forms of advertising do you invest in, and how did you decide or figure out what kind of advertising made sense to go for?

I don't know many other people running small business, so I'd be interested to hear your perspective.

No-one goes into a car dealership and asks the sales guy how much they are making off the sale or how much the car costs them. ridiculous,.

Oh Joseph, I think we’d work well together. In part because of what I’ve learned through your posts, I had a flawless remodel. My GC and I interviewed and hired each other. He was delighted when I asked for his certificate of insurance and said, “No one has asked for that before. I’ve been paying those rates for years, so thank you.” I always figured I was paying for materials, labor, expertise and a perfectionist streak that exceeded my own.

I agree with Kidshop. I usually supply my own fixture(s), and pay the contractor for his labor and supplies. Gets that whole issue of discounting or whatever off the table. For plumbing jobs, I've supplied my own sinks, faucets, and toilets. I get along great with my plumber.

Maybe next time you could respond by saying that while it might be some lawyer's rates, it's probably less than the rate of the other contractor that gave you a quote for the same job.

Keep your eye on your bank account for a day or two. Just because you deposited the cheque doesn't mean that they can't enforce a stop payment on it (ask me how I know).

Some people are just jerks. The couple in your story remind me a a couple I used to wait on regularly when I worked at a nice restaurant in high school. The guy was an ass - complained about just about everything. His wife was a sweetheart - she took care of the bill, and I was always tipped well.

Some people just aren't happy unless they are complaining about something.

When I run into crabby people, I just assume they have hemorrhoids. The guy in your story, Joe - he has an especially bad case.

I feel sorry for all the people that do jobs for him, regardless of what it is, including his lawyer.

The difference here is that it is easy to find a lawyer. Not so easy to find someone with your skill set Joseph.

Charge what you want. Supply and demand. why should you work on the cheap when you have a skill that saves the client a large chunk of change in the long run.

If the client doesn’t want to pay your fee they have the option not to hire you. Simple.

He is a miserable cheapskate that tried to bring you down. You are an Eagle who soars and succeeds. He is a turkey that runs around bumping into things and complaining.

Keep flying high for you are an Eagle.

Thanks to everyone.

This morning I wrote this to clarify in my own mind what had transpired. I hope young contractors read and learn before getting a one-foot-in-retirement reminder as I have that you need to qualify your prospects and control the sale.

If it isn't bragging if you back it up, I have the online ratings over the years to demonstrate that I'm the guy you want to hire. This story flies in the face of those who advocate for getting material and labor breakdowns from contractors. You're alienating the very guys you should be trying to attract.

Interesting discussion. I have mixed feelings. If they tell me, like Anglo, that job will be cost/net plus a percentage I’d be fine with that. Wouldn’t pursue it further and would happily pay, assuming a job well done. But if by coincidence I found out the person bought sinks for $20 and not the $150 charged, I’d be pissed, as that is 7.5 times the cost and would consider it gouging. I’d pay the person but doubt I’d use them again, ever. If he found a deal on sinks, paid $20 and charged me $60-75, I’d think nothing of it. But $150 for a $20 sink to justify operating expenses he didn’t include in his pricing would not be ok. I do not believe I should make up for his mispricing, especially in such underhanded manner.

The people that are thoughtful about their pricing and its components (rent, gas, advertising, uniforms, etc) never feel compelled to explain it. They know what it takes to run their biz, Customer accepts or rejects quote and he moves on submitting the next bid.

This guy had given me warning when we met initially and when they gave me the down payment for the job. He asked me how much the sink was then. I should have taken the hint. They asked if there was a discount if they paid cash. Another hint.

If you’d told him cost of sink, he might have not hired you or he might have hired you with eyes wide open. He was rude and overreacted to his feeling fleeced and perhaps to what he perceived as evasiveness, since you didn’t answer the question the first time but I’m not sure I find his questions out of line.

full disclosure would have been good for both of you.

i always ask about warranties or special discounts. I wouldn’t be a savvy consumer if I didn’t.

When I was seeking quotes for various bits of work in our kitchen update, I observed that the old-school types would send me a quote with a $ number in it, and that was it; no break-down of labour or material costs, no indication of material types or finishes, etc. Whereas the younger ones were able to give me detailed quotes.

This may not be true of all contractors, but this was my experience. These quotes were for various details in the kitchen such as flooring, lighting, cabinetry, plumbing, painting, backsplash, etc.

I went with the quotes where I actually knew what I was buying. I'm happy to pay a decent hourly rate, or however it's calculated, because I'm hiring professionals and they're worth it. But I don't like being ripped off (and there were a couple of those buried in the lump-sum quotes, we discovered).

Oh ... and it does sound like your ex-client is a prize jerk and a bully, Joseph. Some people would rather eat their granny than not try to dicker and bully. Next time you get those red flags, add in a nuisance tax!

Catt Combs

"No-one goes into a car dealership and asks the sales guy how much they are making off the sale or how much the car costs them. ridiculous"

Actually savvy car buyers do know what dealer cost is and negotiate from that figure rather than down from MSRP. There are services that provide this information or you can go to a car forum and find that information out.

I am a little confused by Joe's business model though as I thought he charged by the hour. If that's true, the cost of materials would be the total less hours charged.

And I don't understand how someone would not be choosing their kitchen sink and therefore would know what the cost is. If someone is installing a sink or a faucet, I would think most people would want the exact model and style they selected.

I am more familiar with supplying materials where there is such a huge range of options and styles and paying for installation of fixtures I provide. And even when materials are being sourced or supplied by a trade professional, it's often on a cost plus markup so that theoretically the consumer does benefit from procuring from the tradesperson and the tradesperson receives a profit on supplying the materials.

However, the time to question pricing structure is when you receive a bid and not when the work is completed and it's time to pay - whatever the terms of the contract are, they should be binding on both parties

Going to the car analogy if as you are driving off in your new purchase you ask your salesperson at the only place you shopped for the invoice price of the car and what incentives are available, information that will is readily available online with a few seconds (maybe minutes if you don't know where to look already) of "research," and are mad at the answer you best be mad at yourself. Because it's your fault...

As a now retired carpenter/contractor for over 40 years, I learned early on that I was interviewing a prospective client as much as they were me. It's usually pretty easy to identify people you don't want to do business with, and those that you know will work well with, but once in a while the toxic ones can fool you...

When we gutted our house for a 6-month whole house reno, we decided on a specific GC and let him know that he would be primarily dealing with me. I specifically asked him and the project manager if they thought they could work with me and they said yes. We didn't have any issues that came up during the process.

"I am a little confused by Joe's business model though as I thought he charged by the hour. If that's true, the cost of materials would be the total less hours charged."

Fair enough. If your condo association won't let lowly contractors use the lobby, believe me, you're going to pay dearly for that luxury. Hourly.

If you hire me for a sink job, I'm giving you a fixed price whether or not I take a beating.

If you hire me for a sink job, I'm giving you a fixed price whether or not I take a beating.

Two important things: Make sure 1) your pricing reflects ALL your cost, fixed and variable and 2) that you might lose a potential client if you hold firm to your no breakdown policy. Using a single $ amount to adjust for pricing mistakes or b/c you’re guessing some of the costs is not Wise or biz savvy. If a customer does his research and your price is within a 20% range up/down, they might not insist on breakdown.

I might be more insistent on requesting a breakdown if overall number sounds off, otherwise, maybe yes maybe no. In a large project, you bet I will insist on a detailed quote.

ive read and enjoyed many of your posts so can’t imagine your not knowing your costs or having problems detailing items.

It sucks to do a great job and be unappreciated, but rest assured, we love you joe.

Tomorrow I’m going to pay $153 for the small piece of mirrored glass that goes in my passenger side rear view mirror. Just the glass. I know this because the guy installing it warned me over the phone. I didn’t even ask what he is going to charge for the labor, as I have no interest in doing the labor myself or shopping the job out. At some point in life you come to the realization that you’re not going to be your own dentist - by which I mean that you have to trust someone to do the things you can’t. My philosophy is to try to find someone good, then pay him what I owe him and say thank you.

My philosophy is to try to find someone good, then pay him what I owe him and say thank you.

This.

There is no excuse for those customers' rude and disrespectful behavior. Craftspeople do specialized work and should be appropriately compensated.

That said, I don't like this hush-hush secrecy about prices and wages in many pricing models. Keeping people in the dark creates more distrust of the trades. Yes, I understand there are expenses for overhead/insurance/travel/training/advertising/annoyance(HOAs *ahem*).

He wanted to make himself feel big and you feel small. What a miserable person. Can you imagine what it's like to be married to him? Heave forbid you had to work for the man every day.

Now, the poor wife is going to have to hear how he was ripped off ad nauseum.

Too bad you didn't have advance information to charge him extra for the hassle factor.

It's a lot harder to find a good plumber or carpenter (or countertop guy) than a lawyer.

My SO's way of dealing with checks that might go sour was always to take it immediately to the bank it was drawn on and cash it.

There's not possibility of the transfer being blocked.