I haven't paid a good chunk yet, so I can withhold until fixed. I assessed my concerns with the contractors after the vanity issue and told them I expected them to be on-site for the flooring while I was out of town to make sure there were no hiccups... And then this happened.

I can't believe what is going on with that countertop. SMDH

Oh yeah and they sanded and refinished old floors so it would match after laying new wood. on site, clear natural finish.

It looks like the subs are kicking back one too many.

Seriously though - this is bad and the gc and project manager need to be micro managed. Good that a good chunk of the money is still in your hands.

Don’t pay them no more until you’re satisfied with the work....is there anything in the contract stating that if the work is not done to your satisfaction that the contract becomes nulled...have you had another contractor come and see the work to give input.

I hate to day it Erin, but this is probably not going to get better. It is good you haven’t paid them and retained a good portion of the payment. Might be time to fire these people and find another gc and review and investigate subs being used. In Texas, GCs are required by law to give the buyer a list of the subs they plan to use.

"I'm going to have to resign from this business right after your project.......sorry"

No, he resigned from the business before he started on your project, he just did nto tell you. If he truly ever was in this business. Fact is, business is good, contractors are busy. Every helper thinks he can go into business for himself because of this, forgetting the reason he was working as a helper to begin with.........................

yeah it stinks.. I'm having the kitchen and bath totally redone and floors refinished.
we are in the home stretch and just need my countertop fixed, which they agreed to do, my floors fixed, which they agreed to do, and my appliances installed and plumbing and electrical finished. Oh yeah and fixing the caulk job.
I don't know how much $ could be withheld if they fix the issues? it's more like a waste of my time and energy and this lurking fear that other corners were cut that I don't know about.
at this point I am just mad that I could have hired and managed all the work myself since now I've had to become an expert in renovations and a micromanager and quality inspector for the team.

millworkman that text was from my gc, who I hired, who has been in business for decades. I think he just couldn't be bothered caring anymore. he's being coy that he should resign because they are effing up so bad...

If they have messed up so badly, why would you want the same people back to fix things? Cut your losses, get someone that knows what they are doing to finish your job.

Well I’m towards the end of a big remodel and I’ve had a few similar issues over the course of the project. I just dealt with a similar bath backsplash issue that really ticked me off. Just this week we all walked around and went over a long list of item DH & I had concerns about. Most are small but still absurd considering the money we are spending.

But maybe the difference is that my GC has acknowledged the issues and made the changes needed.
In the beginning I did feel like he rolled his eyes at me and just wished I wouldn’t notice things. And maybe also wasn’t used to such a vocal woman. But once it was clear I would not go away everyone got on board.

If your GC id doing the arguing and making you crazy I’d say it’s time for a big sit down and also looking around for a new one.

Ps: we also matched new hardwoods with old skinny boards and our floors looked mismatched for awhile. I really don’t think ours would have been able to blend and look the same without some kind of stain on them. New and 70yrs old just aren’t the same.

thanks, at least I'm not the only one..
yeah I recognize the floors won't match perfectly but the old ones aren't a hard size, type and grade to find, and what went in was just plain wrong.
I have no "man" in the house to deal with the contractors and I feel like they definitely roll their eyes at me rather than just doing the right work. I won't go away either but so far I'm not seeing an improvement in quality. idk. thanks everyone for the inputs!

I have to say that here in Denver where construction is rampant it seems anyone who can hold a hammer is calling themselves a carpenter. I’ve had similar issues with my gc and asked him to never send certain subs again. I ended up firing everyone and finishing it myself even though I had already paid. I did a better job and I’m not a “professional”. You don’t always get what you pay for.

Hard to imagine they have a reputation for good work and attention to detail. These are rookie mistakes, poor planning and just sloppy workmanship. It is not unreasonable for you to withhold funds until these items are fixed. I'm sorry you had the deal with this. A remodel is stressful enough, but when you have these kinds of issues, that only adds to the stress. Unfortunately there are way to many of these contractors out there.

The tile would drive me nuts. Along with everything else. None of this work is acceptable. Hang tough, your not unreasonable. They just don’t like being held accountable.

OT: Dragonfly, I can't understand why we don't see more people entering the trades. I thought we needed jobs for people who used to work in manufacturing. Wouldn't this kind of work be a good fit for those workers?

Dragonfly,,,one more reason you left out,,,undocumented workers who work for dollars an hour less than a skilled tradesman. the customer loves saving thousands of dollars so they go w/that bid. How many time have you heard of small business trades people (painters, tilers, flooring, roofing, etc) say, "there is no way I can do the work that they do for that price. My business would collapse because of what I have to pay". When you don't have to pay taxes, med insurance, workmans comp, etc, and you pay your workers $14 an hour, then that's when you get the crappy and sub par work. Until the consumer is willing to pay more for quality work (and I'm not saying that's what's happening on the job w/OP,,,I don't know) then we are going to keep seeing these horror stories.

And Rita, why don't we see young people? back in the old days when schools had wood shop, metal shop, auto shop, etc, and they went as journeymen w/the dads or relative, you had younger people who did take up the trade. What do you see in school now? All they do is push these kids w/taking tests so their schools score higher points. All they push for is college. 'Go get a degree so you can make 6 figures". kids graduate and wonder why they don't have 100K a year job. Work?? you mean physical work? this generation? pul-eeze. (I'm not saying all of them....but most of them have no clue about blue collar work)

Hi, Pink Peony here, queen of the builder nightmare. Some wonderful designers gave me some invaluable advice on here and I listened. The main one being to make an excel spread sheet with every item that was of concern. Every request made and then the dates of these, what was discussed, when reported what the outcome was etc. I did that and took it a step further, Under the outcome column I wrote every outcome that was done correctly and in my favor in green and every outcome that was not handled satisfactory to us in red. The items are listed most recent to earliest and anything that hasn't been addressed yet ive highlighted in yellow. The last column is what an acceptable trade off would be to us for anything not done to our satisfaction. This column we have not shown the builder but we are keeping it noted so when we get closer to closing on this home we know what types of things we will be "discussing". We sent this off to our builder on Sunday and when they didn't address it we sent them and email demanding they stop all work on the project till they could meet with us and go over every option they thought we had chosen and went over everything that was left to do and everything that they had done incorrectly. The second piece of advice was to choose my battles and to work on getting the biggest things done from them first. That meeting mentioned took place yesterday. We won some and we lost some but we are keeping those lost items in a be patient and see how this pans out and keep working on them file. No one ever wants to be said no to and have to battle like we have but it has helped us work through a lot of issues. It also has let the builder know we are holding them accountable. At the meeting my PM brought up my list on his iPad and went over it with me item by item. So it was reassuring to know they had it and were working off it. We were clear on what we were willing to put a final notation on and what we weren't. In the end I will say nothing surprises me at this point.

Rita, Manufacturing jobs are in high demand now too. Many sectors are competing for workers. Of course there are regional differences but in our area there are many initiatives to further the recruitment and training of people for manufacturing as the need is so high. The "trades" use to hold more esteem than they do today. There is a major societal shift toward "college degrees" (many reasons) in the past 20 years or so. We belong to multiple professional organizations within the construction field (nationally and locally) and paramount among the issues is finding qualified labor. Are manufacturing and the trades the same workers? Of course you can find cross-over in any career fields. Take for example Welders (extreme shortage right now), and some find their place in manufacturing but there are other sectors requiring those same skills. Assuming all manufacturing workers could be qualified as potential construction trade workers is perhaps an over-generalization. In our own trade, math skills and artistic sensibility, for example, are desirable traits. May or may not transfer to some manufacturing jobs. We also require a high level of interactive cooperation (understanding other trades requirements) and good customer service skills as we work directly with the homeowner. So there are some differences. Once you learn to operate a machine, or run that part (manufacturing) you can often deliver consistently. Not better, worse, or easier, in the trades, we need to adjust daily/hourly based on the technical challenges, the design, the uncovered and unforeseen conditions, and of course, the human factor related to working in people's homes and serving them directly. One reference regarding the shortage: https://www.tradesmeninternational.com/news-events/the-construction-labor-shortage-where-did-all-the-skilled-labor-go/

Thank you, Dragonfly. I didn't mean to suggest the workers were interchangeable- just that the pool of possible applicants might overlap a good bit. And by no means would I think manufacturing sector people would not need training to learn how to become skilled tradesmen.

Where I live you have to wait about two to three years to get a top tier builder (and maybe that is the wait for any builder, IDK) for your house. We couldn't wait that long and bought a completely remodeled house and paid a significant premium for the privilege.

What an interesting conundrum we are in. I can't imagine why we would not encourage people to study skilled trades along side general education classes in college- like at the community college level.

I apologize for going OT.

PS I enjoyed the articled you linked to- thank you, again.

One thing I'd like to add regarding feathering in wood flooring. I have 20 yr old white oak floors that I want to feather into. I've had 3 different flooring guys in to take a look and each one has told me that even though what I have may look "standard" and is still available none would guarantee that the feathering would look seamless. Their reasoning is that the grain in the current strand of trees being cut may be a different "pattern" than what I currently have. This appears that may have happened in this case?

@Rita, no apologies necessary. It is a conundrum we are all facing. And to Erin, sometimes a thread takes a twist (sorry). @Beth, we do not have the same issue you mentioned regarding undocumented workers BUT would suggest the same concerns hold true for any workers/contractors that do not "follow the rules" that we must conform to. Could produce a whole other thread on the warnings/recommendations for homeowners regarding that.

This looks bad. And your GC is straight up gasligting you. Not cool.

ted, I think in this one they went with a lower class of wood; one with knots and such. she should have gotten a higher select grade. and she said it was white oak, and they insisted it was red. It obviously doesn't match anyway you look at it. Them telling her, "just stain it darker so you won't notice it", is ridiculous. I've seen floors from 80 year old homes feathered in w/the same type of wood and i've not been able to tell the difference, so it can be done.

dragonfly,,yes,,it's almost the norm out here. Even if you find the ones that aren't undocumented, you just can't compete with how cheaply they will work. And the reason they work cheap is because they do shoddy work with low skill levels. It's fast and easy. In and out.

Beth, I actually have old common #2 oak all around, and it was obvious because we took down a ceiling and that was what was stamped underneath. furthermore my floor is a mix of white and red. they ordered and installed prime red oak. apparently the sales person tested four boards and they all came back as red. should have been obvious to a professional though..
he blames my gc for putting "prime wood, stain and finish. " on the contract, thinking even if it weren't a perfect match, a dark stain would cover it. claims no one told him we were going natural...
at the end of the day way too many ppl dropped the val for this to have happened. we had words.. the flooring company delivered a batch of a mix of number 1 / 2 red and white oak they called character wood. They are ripping up the new kitchen floor as well as the dining floor and laying all new wood, to match the rest of my house, in both rooms. there will be a horizontal space between old and new where My archway from living to dining is... we are really hoping this turns out or I'm going to lose it.
the additional flooring is going in at no charge.

erin, it's amazing to me what contractors will try and pass off. so sorry you're dealing this goof. all I can say is be there when it goes in. if something isn't right, put a stop to the job.

Man this is just never ending. I have had so many issues with darn near every tradesman (not my plumber though - he is awesome!) I have had in my house (and to my parents as well). It is so so frustrating. And it's why I get so annoyed when someone on this forum says "you are being too picky". It's not being picky. It's expecting what you paid for. I sure hope things turn around.

This whole post resonates with me. I was the "girl" that wanted to take wood shop (1965) and was told, "Only boys can take shop classes". My mother was appalled that her very bright daughter wanted to work with her hands. As you can see by my "handle" I found my own way to satisfy my interests. BUT, I really wish I had been allowed to become a Professional in a trade.

I had a customer tell me she replaced her whole kitchen, cabinets, countertops, the works, for less than 10K in 2008. She's paying me 25% of that just to replace her sink.

The time's they are a-changin'.

Chess, I'm sure you already do this but, treat that plumber with the utmost respect. Pay him immediately upon service. Ask him about his family and how they are doing. Put his number in your phone contacts. Ask him who else he would suggest for other trade tasks (who do you like to work with?). Build that file and nurture it. Give his name and number to others who will treat him the same (but never to someone who will waste his time). It is a network folks, and it can be a tight one. Learn how to work it. The problem often develops from a mistaken sense of who needs who.

chiflipper,,right? boys got woodshop and auto, and us girls got HomeEc. I took AutoShop one summer just because I wanted to learn (early 70's) and was the only girl. It just wasn't done back then. We could learn to cook and sew and type, but god forbid we learn how to change our oil or build a table.

In middle school everyone had to take home ec, sewing, drafting and woodshop. Whether boy or girl. In high school you had to take home ec to graduate. Also drivers ed consisted of 6 months in a simulator as well as auto shop then 6 months behind the wheel. In order to get your permit you had to pass the class which beside written tests and driving tests included being able to check tire pressure, change a tire by yourself, check the oil, windshield wiper fluid and if they were low add oil and windshield wiper fluid to the car. You also had to be able to use jumper cables to jump a dead battery. My kids don't believe me when I tell them this.

pink,,,good lord,,,where did you go to school? East Berlin? I remember having drivers training. it was a semester w/3 separate days behind the wheel w/the teacher and two other students. we all got to pick where we wanted to drive. I took them up to Hollywood to 'cruise' the boulevard! I was so surprised when my son said they no longer had drivers ed. or the home ec stuff. He did take woodshop. But all this other stuff you had to do,,,wow. I think it's great. Kids today would die if they had to do all of that. They ought to throw in life classes like how to do banking, credit card maintenance, balancing your accounts, writing a check (do young kids even do that now?) , etc. I made my son do all of this stuff, as well as maintenance stuff around the house. nothing worse than a 20 something year old that can't do crap !

@Beth: And our apprentices side by side, challenged with mitre cuts, both saws set at 45 degrees for optimum efficiency as they were working as a team to support the Tile Setters installation requirements.

Dragonfly Tile & Stone Works, Inc. Chess, I'm sure you already do this but, treat that plumber with the utmost respect. Pay him immediately upon service. Ask him about his family and how they are doing. Put his number in your phone contacts. Ask him who else he would suggest for other trade tasks (who do you like to work with?). Build that file and nurture it. Give his name and number to others who will treat him the same (but never to someone who will waste his time)

LOL. I know how to treat him. I assure you, he would not answer the phone for me if I did not. He's been a marvelous help for my elderly parents as well. And it's not just him, it's he and his son working with him. He is a retired detective, who decided he wanted to be a plumber in his retirement. He took the classes, got certified, and has a successful retirement gig. His son works full time and works side jobs beside his dad. It will be the son's gig when HE retires. If I didn't hate plumbing so much I might consider taking the same leap. :-)

dragonfly,,,sigh,,,this is what should be taught in school (in addition to the other classes,,duh). there should be a requirement to graduate that you have to have learned a trade. They made me take Algebra, and not once did I use it in my grown life. I sure could have used the knowledge of auto, wood shop, metal, construction, etc. I'm fortunate my dad was one of those guys that could do/build anything. absolutely anything. and if he didn't know it, he figured it out. the man was amazing.

Beth, classes in the 70's?!? I always thought you were a very smart, hard working 30 something!

Beth- I agree about offering classes that teach a trade. These have all but disappeared from schools today. I taught algebra in the public schools for a very long time and currently teach algebra at a community college. I believe you learn how to problem solve, think sequentially and logically by learning algebra.

Mary Elizabeth,,,lol. when I was 30 I did work very hard. Now I'm retired and old as dirt!

Mark- when I went back to college after I retired, I had to take 4 semesters of Algebra to satisfy my degree requirements. You know, I actually got into it! I had to completely relearn everything because it had been over 40 years, but I actually did very well. And while I could have used it for some construction elements I was doing, by that time I had forgotten how to do the formulas! it's definitely something you need to keep up with if you're not using it daily.

Building more trade schools and requiring shop classes isn't going to solve the construction industry's personnel problems. Those would be relatively easy fixes compared to changing the social status of construction workers. When you want your daughter to marry one, instead of that doctor or lawyer you always thought little Suzie deserved, threads like this will disappear, but not until.

My daughter is entering high school next year and I see that the schools put everyone on a college prep track, which was not the case when I was a kid. I grew up in farm country, and my high school offered ag classes, wood shop, metal shop, and auto shop, along with home ec and business classes like typing (showing my age--I was in high school just as word processing was in its nascency), bookkeeping, and accounting.

I co-own a duplex with my ex-husband, and it needs painting this year. HE wants to hire the guy across the street (literally) to do the work, but the idea of a person who I KNOW doesn't have appropriate insurance working on ladders or scaffolds gives me the heebie-jeebies. My ex works from home and is confident in his ability to supervise the quality of the work, but...heebie-jeebies. It's hard to win an argument with my ex though, one of the reasons we are no longer married.

Joseph, Doctors and lawyers have always had more social status than skilled tradesmen, so I don't understand how that is a problem today. Not everyone wants or can be a doctor or lawyer. Not everyone wants or can be a skilled tradesman (Dragonfly made that point abundantly clear to me earlier in the thread- Archie Bunker probably did not have the social skills to work collaboratively on a project that requires any level of artistic judgment, for example.)

It seems to me that the farther we become divorced from manual labor ourselves, the less we will be able to respect or appreciate a job well done. Our grandparents knew how to do a great deal more with their own two hands, regardless of social status, than we do. A doctor today is not likely to be able to fix things around the house nearly as much as a doctor yesterday. So in my mind, yesterday's doctor, lawyer, whatever, would appreciate the work of the tradesman much more than one today who has no notion of what the job entails- or the satisfaction of being able to make something tangible with your own hands.

If I were the working on this marketing problem, I would start a series of YouTube interviews with people like you, Joseph and Dragonfly and Sophie, and show their work and discuss how much thought and effort go into a job well done.

ETA The more I think about the more I think this is a symptom of something very wrong with our society. A lack of respect for good work cannot lead anywhere positive.

schools don't have the funding that's needed for implementing trade courses. it's all they can do to keep wood shop alive. They already take much needed days in order to have 'practice test taking' for the state exams. weeks of preps for these state tests that supposedly measure where your child is academically, how they compare to all the other kids across the nation, and how well they score at each school. the schools admin places a lot of pressure on their teachers to get the tests aced so their school can 'shine'. It's a load of crap. It's all about money. higher ranking schools get more money, more prestige. From the time the freshman come in, they are already gearing up for their SAT's. (in my community this actually starts in the 6th grade). Not every child is college material. Some kids actually like working w/their hands. There really ought to be trade courses offered so that the kids that can't qualify for Yale, can actually go out into the world and make an honest living. Instead they're living w/mom and dad until they're 25 working menial jobs. I'm being a bit facetious here, but you get my drift.

as for little susie wanting a doctor or lawyer,,screw susie! doctors make lousy husbands and affluent attorneys aren't far behind. Let susie go to medical or law school herself instead of relying on some man to support her. Joseph, this isn't 1955. Susie will find out soon enough that picking for status alone has severe consequences.

So well said, Rita. Came across this gentleman last year and we exchanged some thoughts regarding our love of our crafts, our history, and more. You may enjoy the two minutes to view his video as it expresses the sentiment of so many of us old world craftsmen/women (and Rita, perhaps this is the kind of message you were referring to): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcjaHEJfczo&feature=player_embedded

Erin, I am sorry you are dealing with this. I love Pinks idea of an excel file to stay organized. I would keep your money and not pay until items are acceptable to you.

Sending positive wishes your way that this all works out fairly to you.

Beth I went to school in southern CA. San Diego school district.

I created the excel file.. sent it this morning, we'll give them time to review then schedule a meeting. thanks everyone for the tips.

Spreadsheets are so helpful. I get everyone using them to track and follow their "open items". Very useful. Creates great documentation record as well. Good luck!