I think it looks great so far!

Adding some more images for various times of the day.

11:00 AM

1:00 PM

3:00 PM

4:00 PM

5:00 PM

After this time most things are in shade.

check out this guy:

http://www.midfex.org/App_Pages/Yale/intro.aspx

i used to have a link to a personal video tour.. but i cant find it ... dont focus on his apple fixation .... its about the use of space ... for your purposes ....

have you looked into how many years or decades it might take for nut production ...

where are you ... z6 isnt enough info ... many peeps are having problems with picea pungens.. long term ... location might matter .... doug fir.. on the other hand.. can get HUGE over the decades ... what is their purpose.. to give up so much space .. i can guess ... but i may as well hear it from you ...

i have used stark .. no downside for me ... but i bet the fruit nuts ... see what i did there.. probably have better sources ...

good luck

ken

ken_adrian, I will look at that link. According to starkbros their walnut trees bear in 4-5 years and get 30-40(made them 40 feet in my model). I picked starkbros because a friend used them, I already ordered the plums and they can in pretty decent shape, growing them in some rootmaker pots in my patio until fall.

I live in the SLC valley in Utah, some places say we are 6a, others say 7. The Douglas Fir are to replace a Box Elder tree that gives some privacy to me from my neighbors. I chose it because according to arbor day, they get tall but only 20' wide. Because they are on the far north end of my yard this means I give up very little in terms of sun except directly under them. When they get older I was hoping the Blueberries would get enough sun and I was hoping the needles would help keep the soil more acidic for the Blueberries, sound reasonable?

First, Arbor Day is not a reliable source for plant info....or plants !! I'd do more research but Doug firs get to be enormous trees. They are native to my area and I can guarantee you that a 20' width is grossly understated!! Individual branches can be easily that long so I'd double that size. And in Utah, I'd have to think a Colorado or blue spruce would make much more sense. And you can easily find smaller growing cultivars of this species, which is not the same with the Dougs.

Second, conifer needles do not make soil acidic - that is a persistent but inaccurate gardening myth. Soil acidity is based primarily on the underlying mineral content of the soil and the amount of rainfall received. Plant material has virtually NO impact on soil pH at all.

most trees never stop growing ... so its very hard to get good info on future potential ....as an example:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Douglas+Fir+forest&t=ffcm&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

i agree on stark .... but i know the mavens ... the professionals.. have professional sources .. where all variables are know including grafting history.. understock types ... etc ... thats why i hoped some of the orchard peeps might chime in ..

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mavens+define&t=ffcm&ia=definition

here is a general planting guide

https://sites.google.com/site/tnarboretum/Home/planting-a-tree-or-shrub

pH is an exponential function ... to change pH... you would probably need a thousand feet of needles.. for a couple thousand years.. to move the pH slightly ... an exaggeration.. but the point is made ...

i wish you luck ... ken

I have seen others who have been unhappy with getting rootstock information from Stark Bros. I have just trusted that they will send me something appropriate for my location, and i have only had one tree not make it from them (so far). I would have to agree with the others on ArborDay. Do not buy from them, and take their information with a pile of salt! I live about 45 minutes away from them even, and i don't trust their information or product. They have great amenities and it is a nice place to tour, but not worth ordering from.

Personally, i would reconsider the walnuts. You give up a lot of space for them, and their roots are detrimental to nearby Apple trees and berry bushes. Even the space you have given between them, i would not risk investing 10-20 years, for the walnut tree to then kill the apples. Chestnuts, Almonds, or even Pecans may be a better option for a nut tree.

Here is a link to some high-density planting options, where you plant multiple trees in a single hole. http://www.davewilson.com/home-gardens/backyard-orchard-culture/high-density-planting

You will need to be a bit diligent to prune for an open center to make sure you don't get disease and bacteria, but this will let you get more varieties planted in less space. I am also a fan of the multi-grafted trees, i only have one (a cherry that is still too young to produce) from Stark Bros, but my others (apples and pears) have already produced and are awesome for extending the harvest. My 4-in-1 Asia Pear tree produces delicious asian pears for about a whole month!

For the evergreens in the back, I would recommend looking into Columnar Spruce trees. these only get about 6 ft wide, and then 20-30 ft tall. I have 5 of these in the corner of my yard for privacy (they are slow growing so i don't have that privacy yet), but are another option which will open up space in your yard to allow for more fruit (or a veggie patch for a well rounded diet). These do tend to cost a bit more, i had to pay $200/tree from my local nursery (which also included a 3 year warranty as i had them plant it as well).

i bought some mail order walnuts .... from various mailers.. 18 years later ... i have not harvested a nut .... and the trees are barely 10 to 15 feet tall ... in MI ...

oaks i planted at the same time.. are 25 to 40 feet tall ... just as a comparison ..... as to growth rate ....

look into juglone toxicity and black walnuts ... and try to avoid such ...

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=juglone+and+black+walnuts&t=ffcm&ia=about

ken

I cannot find a scale anywhere on the graphics or text, and it is hard to determine the overall size of the square (100+ per side?) given the gray circle is 40 feet in diameter.

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Douglas Fir make a fine forest, but as individuals or groves, they shed (when mature) branchlets during any significant wind event (15mph+). They are unlikely to reach western Oregon size in Utah, they are a very wet-climate tree.

In my experience Douglas fir (the rocky mtn variety) have similar growth rate and size to blue spruce, like exactly the same. They are fine trees and I don't notice any issue with the wind. Just a little messy with all those cones. They should be planted a lot more in my neck of the woods

This sounds like some detailed planning, but I have to ask do you plan on being there in 35 years? And if so will you be in a condition to maintain the trees?

Lots of responses, going to try to address each, I wish I didn't have a job...

General: I am evaluating my sources, but planting plants can be as unforgiving/rewarding as gambling, in fact I believe it is another form of gambling, for us brown thumbs :) Since I believe it is gambling I will 'try my luck' until I hit a streak, or a crash, for now starksbros delivers on time and the plants are alive. But if you have a tip I will take it.

Location: I live in a city and have culinary water. I have almost exactly .25 acres. My property is roughly 90'x115'. My lot is south facing.

gardengal48, still learning, was just looking for a way to objectively judge size. The internet has a lot of (mis)information. Thanks for letting me know about the myth.

ken_adrian, I take your points. The issue I have is that it is very hard to judge how a tree will do in a spot. My area is semi-arid so it is hot and dry in the summer and although I will be watering, I am not in Oregon. I settle on drip systems with lots of bark mulch. Point taken on the PH, I think for the Blueberries I am going to do them in a raised area so I can control the PH easier.

From the comments, the privacy trees are in question. I will research more for a tree that fits my requirement(minus the PH myth; also I am putting the Blueberries in a raised bed of some sort). A primary requirement is I want to create an area for relaxing, here is a zoom in from an "updated" model.

Under those trees would be mighty relaxing at 5PM. Maybe I put a bench there... How much sun do I lose is the key to me, plus I get privacy, which is important to me in this direction.

jason long and ken_adrian, the model is true to north, do you think the walnuts will make it under the driveway and/or around the house?

The Logician LLC, see location above but it is roughly 90'x115'. The walnuts are 40' and most the fruits are 15'

Ike Stewart, thanks for reminding me of mortality, but I am 40, I plan on living here for 20 more years. It may not be done but I think I will be around.

Another note, this is estimating 35 years in the future, I plan on estimating backwards in 5 year increments. I also understand planning 35 years is impossible and estimating is almost as bad odds as planning, but... If you don't aim you won't hit the target.

Eventually the roots will get there. The apple trees are the only thing you are looking to plant that would be an issue with the walnuts. Plums are not impacted, and neither are peaches. It will take a long time for it to get there, may take 40-50 years, but eventually the roots will grow that far out. It will depend on tree and soil, but in best conditions, roots can grow out 38" per 1" of trunk diameter, though often a 12-1 ratio is commonly used to estimate.

I generally think fruit tree planting on a 5 - 10 year payback timeline, anything longer than that is just too uncertain, though I too hope to be around in 35 years, though the actuarial statistics say chances are more like 33 years.

I think the issue of harm to the apples would only be for black walnuts, and I don't think it's clear whether we're talking English walnuts or black walnuts.

Sorry for the dormancy, work life balance isn't where I want it to be...

Ike Stewart, the important part to me is finalizing the walnut trees, those trees are the most important to me since they will shade my house a lot and take the longest to grow. I understand that the fruit trees will be more dynamic, especially in 30+ years. I think I can change the fruit trees on a 5-10 year period better than the walnut trees, which will survive me, and maybe a couple generations.

laceyvail, I will have a black walnut, my plan was a carpathian walnut and a black walnut. I think the black walnut will be the one in the lower right. If I need to shift the apples with the plums, will that help some of the anxiety?

I am now trying to model backwards from 35 years, so I have the following for the walnuts only so far:

30 years:

15 years:

5 years:

I have estimated growth at:

5 years: 10'x10'

10 years: 15'x'15

15 years: 20'x25'

20 years: 25'x30'

25 years: 30'x35'

30 years: 35'x40'

35 years: 40'x40'

So all those are based on a bad source, the trees will get a lot bigger(maybe), what is your opinions, are the above growth rates in the ballpark of a walnut tree in the first 30 years?

A couple follow on questions.

Most my fruit trees in my model are 12'-15' wide and tall. Is this accurate? If I modeled 0, 5, ... to maturity, what values would you use?

You might also plant some other smaller fruit trees, placed on the 10-15 year size projections for the larger trees, to be thinned out later if needed. As this gives you a backup plan in case one of the big trees dies some years down the road.

Original graphic implies neighbor would have to enjoy 1/2 of a walnut tree.

jason long, I plan on planting 3 of those urban apple trees, look at one of my previous picture for the 3 trees in the triangle in hot pink. I am hoping they can give my patio a little more shade at 5pm, prime time for a BBQ. Thinking I can put a post in the middle to help support them. As for Apple selection so far not counting the Urbans, I was going to do a Honeycrisp and Jon-A-Red Jonathan, still debating on the 3rd tree.

Ike Stewart, I am doing the 5, ... , 35 year modeling so I can figure out where I can fit a couple more trees between now and 35 years. Was going to plant a couple cherries knowing they will come out in a decade or more.

The Logician LLC, that is a fair point. Their half will be over their driveway. What is it like under a walnut tree for cars? Here is a photo of the area:

I don't know about under walnut trees, but under large pecan trees it is a mess, lots of droppings, etc.

I thought about some of the comments and this is my latest design:

The tree in the upper left will be the Black Walnut. So I moved the peaches and plums to the back, also added another of each type. The Hazelnuts got moved to the front along with the Applies, hoping the Apples are far enough away from the Black Walnut to avoid the Juglone. I moved the Blueberries to the front middle bed and added a Mulberry tree. From my reading Mulberry trees can handle around the same PH the Blueberries will need? Was going to make the middle bed be my lower PH area, it will be easier to control the PH in the smaller area.

Some brand new editions are the 5 Kiwi vines I want to grow on a trellis above my back patio and the pink additions are Raspberry plants.

What do you think about the changes?

I like this layout. it looks like you still have some room to play with if you so choose.

I already did a little more playing, added 3 pear trees.

Here are the trees in the plan.

Trees I have in the plan:

Kwik-Krop Walnut (40-60' tall x 40-60' wide)

Carpathian English Walnut (30-40' tall x 30-40' wide)

Barcelona Filbert Hazelnut (15-18' tall x 15-18' wide)

Casina Filbert Hazelnut (15-18' tall x 12-16' wide)

Lewis Filbert Hazelnut (10-15' tall x 15-18' wide)

Shiro/Redheart 2-n-1 Grafted Plum (Semi-Dwarf, 12-15' tall x 12-15' wide)

Burbank Elephant Heart Plum (Standard, 18-20' tall x 18-20' wide)

Santa Rosa Plum (Standard, 18-20' tall x 18-20' wide)

Bubblegum Plum (Standard, 18-20' tall x 18-20' wide)

Reliance Peach (Standard, 12-15' tall x 12-15' wide)

Burbank July Elberta Peach (Standard, 12-15' tall x 12-15' wide)

Redhaven Peach (Standard, 12-15' tall x 12-15' wide)

Moonglow Pear (Dwarf, 8-10' tall x 8-10' wide)

Bartlett Pear (Standard, 18-20' tall x 12-13' wide)

Delicious Pear (Standard, 18-20' tall x 12-13' wide)

Gala Apple (Semi-Dwarf, 12-15' tall x 12-15' wide)

Honeycrisp Apple (Dwarf, 8-10' tall x 8-10' wide)

Jon-A-Red Jonathan Apple (Dwarf, 8-10' tall x 8-10' wide)

Issai Hardy Kiwi

Anna Hardy Kiwi

Hardy Kiwi Pollinator

Shangri La Mulberry

Other Trees I have:

SunGlo Nectarine (Standard)

Black Tartarian Cherry (Standard)

Montmorency Pie Cherry (Semi-Dwarf)

I strongly recommend keeping chicken wire around the kiwis for the first few years to prevent critters from killing them. Rabbits destroyed mine.

I see you are going for European pears, if you are unfamiliar with them, the blooms are not the most pleasant smelling (Asian pears are less fragrant, IMO). Also, you must pick them before they are ripe then let them ripen on the counter, or they will rot on the tree. If you haven't read up on these, there are two very interesting varieties that you may want to consider: Colette (an ever bearing variety that keeps producing flowers and fruit until frost) or Maxie (a hybrid of Asian and European pears). Personally i prefer Asian pears (tree ripened ones as what you get in the grocery stores around my area are garbage).

I have bubblegum plums as well, though mine have yet to produce (only 2 years in the ground). But my research on them is that you have to let them ripen to the point that they are falling off the tree for best results, otherwise they may not have the flavor/sweetness that makes them appealing.

Your plans are advancing wonderfully! I would like to second the wire recommend, but think about hardware cloth below, gophers got through the chicken wire and ate up the roots before on an above ground garden, we needed the above ground to keep out bunnies. Good luck!!

I will cage the Kiwis when I get around to planting them but I don't think I will have critter problems, I have very little wild life in my area, not even squirrels.

jason long, I will research those pear trees.

Rearranged some more stuff, started reading that grapes grown next to fences can have issues with sunlight. Here is my latest thoughts:

Each vine will get a 8' trellis with each row being spaced 6' on centers. The rows run north/south so they should get sun on both sides as the sun goes across the sky. This arrangement game them sun between 9AM and 7PM with only small periods of shade from the trees.

Thinking more this may be a better layout:

The pear trees are dwarfs, the grape rows are 2' longer, and more sun for the grapes.

I have been following this thread and enjoyed the pretty colors. However in the real world of the picture of you lot, I believe what you plan will significantly over plant the lot.

There is practically no side yard on the right side of the house. Someone has planted trees in this area which are already brushing the side of your house.

Based on the width of the house and cars, it looks like you have about 25' to the easement in front of the house and about 40 to the street. the side yard looks to be about 35' to the lot like and maybe 50' to the other house.

As you can see the mature tree in the neighbor's lot behind you, takes up and area greater than the area in the left side corners of your lot. The smaller tree I believe in your neighbor's lot behind you takes up more area that you have in the area directly behind and in front of your house,

I believe that you should plant no more that three trees in your lot. One in the bend of the white line (hose?) on the right side of your house, one near the middle of the outer edge of the planting on the the right, and one in a similar area in the area on the planting on the right front.

Any more trees and you are going to have problems with mold an mildew on your house, and the branches will be damaging the roof and gutter areas of your house.

Also it looks like you may have a real fireplace. if so you need to avoiding plant to avoid problem that affect the draft of the chimney and cause a possible fire danger from sparks.

krnuttle, the tree in the north-west corner of the satellite photo is a Cottonwood tree in my neighbors yard. It was part of a thicket of them, I removed all the thicket on my side because there used to be a power line running down the property line so the power company would come in year after year and cut a V in the trees. By the time I cut them down the trees were losing large branches regularly and the trees were growing into my western neighbor's house and my house. This is the last photo I have of that the trees before they got chopped down(notice the large branch that broke off):

Here is a photo of the stump, notice they were partially hollow because when the power company cut some of the branches they did it with no angle so water slowly dissolved the trees from the inside out(the hydrant is a decorative thing, already removed it):

The remaining part of the thicket in my neighbors yard is showing similar signs, last year a branch about 8 inches thick broke off. The tree is doomed and I am planning on working with the neighbor to use the walnut trees to replace these Cottonwood trees. If I can't get buy-in from my neighbor the walnuts will have to be rethought.

The tree in the north of the satellite photo is another thicket but it is Box Elder trees. Half are in my yard, the other half in the neighbors yard. This is another set of trees that I want gone, again the power company destroyed them and they are slowly dying. Last year a branch 6" thick almost fell on my house.

The trees to the east in the satellite photo are Chinese Elm trees that will be cut down when my neighbor and I redo the fence(probably the next neighbor since these neighbors are selling). They were not planted, they were volunteers and are 25' tall and only a couple years old. They are growing so fast it is amazing.

I may decide to reduce the number of trees but I think 3 is a bit extreme. I am in Utah and it is pretty dry here, not sure how much of a problem mold/mildew will be here.

I really like your last layout and I do not think you should only plant 3 trees there are plenty wooded lots with trees much more closely spaced than what you are planning, everything has plenty of space to flourish. I did want to remind you about shade considerations, most plantings require 6-9 hours of daily sun but also some shade is important otherwise they may burn up and it will require more watering.

This is the never-ending thread, but... I am trying to now model increments of 5 years. As an example, here is a guestimate of the walnuts for the next 20 years:

The growth rates are entirely made up but it will take many years for the walnuts to get big. What would you project at 5, 10, 15 ... 35 years? Hoping to get some input on the fruit trees too since I want to plant some cherry trees by the walnuts until they get big.

you could look at the romance series of sour cherries, they are naturally dwarf, hardy, and have a brix rating similar to sweet cherries. i think that you would do well with two or three of those in by the walnuts for around 20 years.

As a side note, though long, i am enjoying following this thread. I wish i had put half the thought into starting my garden/orchard as you are, instead i have thrown tons out there and am now going back to make things look nice and bring it all together.