I always wonder the same thing, as my soil is also alkaline (last test was over 8) and tomatoes do just fine for me. Watching with interest.

Blueberries are gross. Wish I liked them.

Now, it is understood that alkaline and acid soils can interfere with nutrient availability, but if you have plenty of nutrients, that's not necessarily an issue. That is, it may be a nutrient deficiency that is the problem, rather than the pH. I think phosphates are made less available by both acidic or alkaline conditions, and many micronutrients may be less available in alkaline conditions. So if you already have a problem, I guess alkaline soil can make it worse. But the fundamental issue isn't pH.

A phosphorus deficiency in tomatoes is pretty self-evident (purplish leaves) and I sure don't have it.

Same here - 8+ alkaline and my tomato plants do just fine as long as sufficient nutrients available. But no I don't think sprinkling some acidifier around is going to hurt anything and could help with Ca uptake as alkaline soil can affect that aspect.. Most of them aren't that fast acting anyway.

https://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=15737&context=rtd

http://jnasci.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/145-147.pdf

Dave

I just find it amusing that some novice gardeners would kill to get their pH near 7. Why? Because "everybody says" that neutral pH is better for veggies. Of course, everyone says that because everyone else says that, and the real rationale is long lost. A smarter strategy would be to get the soil tested and find out what nutrients it is deficient in. Mythbusters!

Same here, mine grow pretty good as well although my plants do show some signs of iron deficiency- iron does become less available in alkaline soils. I've just amended with iron sulphate which lowers pH and also adds iron.

Yeah, I can't think of anything that doesn't do well for me - assuming I can keep the other pest/disease issues I have under control. My biggest problem is probably peppers in spring/early summer if we have an extended cool season like this one, I do see signs that they're struggling with phosphorus uptake. They're fine in years when we are warmer earlier. Other than that, I don't see the soil alkalinity really affecting much.

It would cost me a hundred dollars to push my pH down by one point for one season in a 15x15 foot bed using commercial soil acidifiers. This myth must be being promoted by those selling soil acidifiers! I'll stick to my potted hydrangea.

It is an extremely well documented fact that the vast majority of plants prefer (and that does not mean require) a slightly acidic soil condition simply because that is the condition that provides for maximum soil nutrient availability. And encourages the most soil biology. But most plants have a much broader tolerance range of pH that they will grow in successfully. If you are routinely fertilizing your plants, this may not be an issue if your pH is not too far out of tolerance range, which for tomatoes is 5.5-7.5. Even acid lovers like blueberries have a pretty wide tolerance range....while nearly every website will indicate they must have a very acidic soil to thrive (4.5-5.5) this is simply not true!! The PNW is home to many commercial blueberry farms (and the largest wholesale grower of blueberry plants in the country) and our soils are nowhere near that acidic - typically in the 6.0-6.5 range - and existing blueberry fields are not continually acidified to lower pH.

If your conditions are working for you then you are either within the tolerance range of the plants being grown or providing sufficient nutrient availability to offset the pH.

That's exactly my point. It's not about pH. It's about nutrients. The "preference" to a certain pH is only indirect. The plant itself doesn't care about pH. So if your soil is deficient in a nutrient and an extreme pH makes that deficiency important, then fix your nutrient problem before you try to start messing with your pH. Around here, soil, tap and ground water are alkaline. That being the case, acidification of a significant sized bed is simply a losing battle.

So the "tolerance range" for tomatoes is 5.5-7.5? My soil pH of 7.9 means that my tomatoes are not tolerant of my soil, which comes as a big surprise to me and them. Dave's situation is worse. Who knew?

daninthedirt, You should't have any problem with Blossum End Rot.

I never do.

We know there is a ton of "everybody says" out there in the gardening world. ;-) Most gardeners outgrow buying into it...eventually. But then even I'd buy into the 'everybody' stuff before I would the 'I read somewhere' stuff so many newbies see as gospel. Maybe we need to bring back the old threads on 'everybody says' and 'I read somewhere...'.

Dave

Let's bring back advice that gives specific references. As in THESE FOLKS say HERE that this is true. In some sense, and in the professional world in particular, references and acknowledgements are what truth is built on. The problem with "everybody says" is that no one in particular knows why everybody is saying it. "Everybody says" is what myths are built on. And there are lots of myths out there. The internet makes it really easy for everybody to say something.

This is a good example of morphing of facts. The fact that alkaline soil can interfere with nutrient availability has morphed into the "fact" that alkaline soil is bad for plants. Nope. Lack of nutrients can be bad for plants. Maybe, if there aren't enough.

digdirt, I'm with you and daninthedirt, I would rather hear what someone has learned by doing and picked up along the way than hear what they have read or what someone told them. Good old experience !

This topic interests me. My soil smells extremely sour, which I'm told is an indication of acidic soil. Of course, I have no idea if that is true!! I'm hoping to get my soil tested this autumn so I can see what all I have. I suspect I also have a fairly high nitrogen soil, being able to grow most vegetables (including sweet corn) with only a couple inches of green waste compost....Even people in neighboring gardens can't grow sweet corn without added fertilizer. Why can my soil sustain it and still get 2 ears per plant (most of which go to the raccoon)? Soil test might clear it up a bit.

Sometimes I wonder the importance of being finicky about the soil with fertilizing, soil pH, compost, etc. A volunteer tomato that sprouts in sheet rock next to pavement fares better than my babied soil............But then again, if I abused a plant on purpose it wouldn't do anything LOL

Rain is usually pretty acidic, so remember that it provides waves of injecting some acidity into alkaline soil to help plants take up nutrients after rains. Obviously, it's not going to shift the permanent pH of the soil or anything, but I think a lot of people leave rain out of the equation when they think about these things.

As gardengal points out, there's ideal, and then there's real-life conditions. The two don't contradict each other. It's a matter of using common sense and being aware of context instead of going by absolutisms.

Nope, rain hitting my alkaline soil isn't going to change the acidity. It is all on limestone, so it is extremely well buffered. In fact, throwing vinegar on won't do much either. Rain is acidic mostly because of carbonic acid, which is a very weak acid.

Yes, about absolutisms. But standard garden advice on the web is all about absolutisms, and the difference between a novice gardener and an experienced one is being able to tell the difference between absolutisms and common sense. In fact, common sense is something that has to be developed. It's not that common.

Nothing changes pH permanently. But rain is a big influence and may shift things momentarily enough for nutrients made unavailable by high pH to become temporarily available in short windows. If this happens often enough, plants that have a wide range of pH tolerance can thrive just fine.

The average pH of rain is in the mid 5s. So it's not negligibly acidic. And it can be even more acidic in places with more air pollution.

If you don't have anything there by water and carbonic acid, it will test out as mildly acidic. But throw some alkaline buffer in and it will not stand up to it.

Seeing as we only got about 6.5" total of rain out here last year, I can't count on that to do much to my soil alkalinity. I think our annual average is somewhere between 12-16" per year, mostly in the winter (it almost never rains during the normal spring/summer/fall "growing" season). We rely solely on irrigation for any sort of soil moisture, and my water is also extremely alkaline.

I don't think rain acidity figures in at all for a lot of extreme southwestern gardens with alkaline soil. If not for my reasons (negligible rain and irrigation with alkaline water), then for Dan's reasons.

You're missing the point. I'm not talking about changing the pH a lot for any meaningful length of time by human standards. Nor am I talking about extremely alkaline soil in drought regions.

But fine. If you want to believe acidic rain does nothing to help plants take up nutrients in mildly alkaline soil, it really doesn't matter, as long as the plants can do it.

Vinegar is pH 2.4. So carbonic acid is very weak compared even to vinegar. pH of 5 is indeed negligibly acidic. Now, heavily polluted areas can get acid rain in which the main acid is sulfuric or nitric, and the pH can be a lot lower. Does rainfall help plants take up nutrients in alkaline soil? Sure, when rain lands on minerals, the very mild acidity can put metal ions in solution. But I suspect it's a minor effect. My plants can go for a month or two without rain during the summer, and I don't think my plants behave that differently after it does rain. As the rain seeps through the upper layers of my soil, it will be quickly deacidified. So, by the time it gets to the roots, there isn't much acid left.

Nobody is saying the rain makes the soil acidic. But less alkaline for a brief moment in time is still less alkaline for a brief moment in time. Minor effects can mean the difference between low range of normal and deficiency.

You keep arguing as though I'm saying the rain makes your soil non-alkaline, and that's not at all what I'm saying.

I will also point out that the pH of non-acid-rain rainwater is about as far away from neutral as the pH of your soil. So it's not like we're expecting 5.5 rainwater to have any kind of real effect on a soil with a pH of 12 or anything crazy like that even if such a thing existed.

I don't think it can be argued that the process of the neutralization does nothing in the soil. The process of neutralization is basic chemistry, there will be something left over (precipitates, free ions, etc.).

Whether this, or 'temporary' (whatever that means to plant roots, I certainly don't know enough to) has any meaningful effect I suppose could be tested, and perhaps it has been.

A grade 11/12 chemistry student could probably do the calculations given the quantity of limestone buffer in the soil, volume, ph, etc. but I haven't done any of those in over a decade and have no intestest in learning how to do so again.

I wonder if the local extension office could be contacted or forumulae plugged into wolframalpha ...

"You keep arguing as though I'm saying the rain makes your soil non-alkaline, and that's not at all what I'm saying."

I'm not speaking for daninthedirt, just myself. I'm arguing that the rain acidity and its effect on soil alkalinity is unimportant in a lot of areas with very high soil alkalinity, as it just doesn't rain (or doesn't rain any appreciable amount) when we're growing in the spring/summer/fall.

Last year I think my specific micro climate/area went about 8 months without any measurable rainfall. From July 1st 2017 to today, we've had 6.5" of precipitation total. Rain just doesn't figure into my gardening or soil equation.

It's interesting information, but not useful for me (and a lot of southwestern gardeners) in any practical sense.

Humsi, if we had been talking about your soil, I wouldn't have brought up rain. Dan is in TX.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about whether people with alkaline soil could grow vegetables, like tomatoes, that supposedly don't tolerate alkalinity. I didn't realize that was just about dan's soil.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that mentioning a mitigating factor for some climates would be understood to not apply to all climates, especially those that do not have the climate factor being discussed.

There were tests done to see if pH itself has a negative effect, and it did, from about 10. Otherwise it's all about nutrients (micronutrients mostly). But in soil we have the mighty organic matter and in particular humic and fulvic acids which act as chelators for those microelements. Also there can apparently be pH variations near the roots caused by the roots themselves for a better environment.