Tile installation question

8 years ago

I'm in the process of fighting with my home builder to get a tile shower corrected. It looks like a poor layout, but in one corner of the shower, they had to cut a thin (1/2" maybe) strip of tile to fit. The tiles have a noticeable taper as you go down the wall. They are telling us that the standard is 1/4" per 3' so they refuse to correct it. That works out to 3/4" top to bottom in a 9 foot wall. Is this unreasonable? My wife and I are strongly considering walking away from the house (not just because of this, numerous quality control issues have delayed closing by over a month). Thanks for your input.

Featured Answer

MongoCT

8 years ago

last modified: 8 years ago

It's tough. To the best of my knowledge, building code itself doesn't address the issue of plumb in a straightforward manner.

The National Association of Homebuilders leans (pun intended) in favor of builders, stating that a wall can be up to 3/8" out of plumb per 32".

That is just amazing. Amazingly sad. That the association of homebuilders feels that an 8' tall wall can be 1-1/8" out of plumb...and call it good!

Now, how about the federal government? If it's good enough for Uncle Sam?

The UFGS, or United Facilities Guide Specifications states that for tiled walls with the tile affixed by a latex fortified mortar, that the wall should be within 1/8" of plumb.

Here's a cut and paste from UFGS 06 10 00 Rough Carpentry, Paragraph 3.4.b:

b. Framing members which will be covered by ceramic tile set in dry-set mortar, latex-portland cement mortar, or organic adhesive must be within the following limits:

(1) Layout of walls and partitions: 6 mm 1/4 inch from intended position;

(2) Plates and runners: 3 mm in 2400 mm 1/8 inch in 8 feet from a straight line;

(3) Studs: 3 mm in 2400 mm 1/8 inch in 8 feet out of plumb, not cumulative; and

(4) Face of framing members: 3 mm in 2400 mm 1/8 in 8 feet from a true plane.

Unfortunately, they are simply guidelines for construction.

Guidelines for tile? We have those. In spades.

TCNA had guidelines for installing tile, they are well recognized as being industry standard. Unless there are extenuating circumstances, tiles smaller than half a tile are, in general, not installed if the tile is small enough where the less than half width cut now falls towards the "sliver" category.

I don't know how large your field tiles are, but typically, instead of installing slivers of tile at the end of a course of tile, most reasonable tile installers will shift the entire layout on the wall over a half-tile.

Instead of having an uncut tile on one end of the course and a sliver on the other end of a course, now you'd have a cut tile on each end, with the two cut tiles being the width of a 1/2 tile PLUS half the width of the former sliver.

Slivers show out of plumb quite easily, wider tiles can disguise it. Meaning, it's easier to see that a 1/2" sliver has grown to 1" from bottom to top, versus noticing that a 4-1/2" tile has grown to 5".

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Comments (11)

millworkman
8 years ago
Pictures?
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MongoCT
8 years ago
I'll throw this out unsolicited:

If the builder accepts framing that is that bad...

...and tiling that is that bad?

What does the builder specify for waterproofing behind the tile?

Anything? Or Nothing?
Najeebah
8 years ago
Send pics please. Doesn't sound good. Did you have a tile layout planned on paper and agreed upon?
PRO
Dragonfly Tile & Stone Works, Inc.
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
Mongo's right. Simply ask your contractor to show you how the entire shower build and tile installation conforms to TCNA (Tile Council of North America) Guidelines and ANSI (American National Standard Specifications), specifically ANSI 108.02 4.3 as it pertains to the lay-out, cuts and allowable lippage. As for the prep wok required for a shower as Mongo refers to, there are very clear specifications for that as well. If the installer doesn't own the two books in the first photo to follow, you may have reason for concern.
Kevin Mack
Original Author
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
Here's the only picture I have at the moment. I'll try to get some more tomorrow. Notice how the bottom tile in the corner is wider than the one above it in the third row? It's like that the whole way up. For reference the tiles are 11.75 square.
Kevin Mack
Original Author
8 years ago
Najeebah, all we have is a description specifying staggered lay. Pulte (the builder) basically states that the installer has final say on the layout.

Mongo, Dragonfly, I asked about written, quantifiable standards and he pretty much said they don't have a precise written standard for tile layout. He did say they started on center and worked out, but he didn't define the rest.
PRO
Dragonfly Tile & Stone Works, Inc.
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
That is totally unacceptable. Someone was just slapping it in. I'd walk, honestly. A sign of the quality of work throughout if they think this is acceptable craftsmanship. I can tell you that if most of my clients, or myself, walked into your "now for sale home" years from now, THAT would be a serious detriment. Your average consumer would spot that eyesore immediately and question the quality of the rest of the workmanship in the home. Now we do really want to know what the waterproofing system was (back to Mongos comment).
Najeebah
8 years ago
Awful! sheesh, do not accept that. Ask them if they'd like you advertising for them with that picture.

they don't have a precise written standard for tile layout. He did say they started on center and worked out, but he didn't define the rest.
Oh? like ready? centre is somewhere, just about there, no wait, there, right, yeah, let's go!

(the builder) basically states that the installer has final say on the layout.
As if. This is why designers come in handy, to forsee and avoid these issues with a tile layout, but regardless, that does not justify that level of rubbish.

You've got to decide, based on the other issues and this, whether you should keep at this battle or move on.
kudzu9
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
It's one thing for a regular wall to be a bit out of plumb, but quality tilers insure that all walls in a shower are plumb and square by using shims underneath the backerboard before it's applied. The last tiler I used would only take the job if he could do the backerboard install, and wasn't satisfied unless there was less than 1/32" deviation across every wall surface in any direction before he started tiling (don't believe me...believe my 6' level).
lafdr
8 years ago
Can you post more pics? Unless they made all grout lines wider, there would have to be a small piece at one corner or another. I am not seeing a big difference in the thickness of the small piece at the top or bottom. More pics please from farther away so we can see all of it.