What to say? All variegated plants are weaker and more susceptible to maladies than are the standard varieties

I really want to know if it has thorns and how long they are. Suzanne Michigan has one and I am considering getting one from the same grower. If it has 1-2" long thorns, I don't want it. Ruth said it could have thorns, but she didn't say much else. I have seen photos of this variety, but didn't see any thorns. My minneola from Four Winds Growers doesn't have any, but I want assurance of what I am getting or not getting. lol.

Denise - Susanne hasn't posted on GW since around Christmas eve (according to her profile) so I hope she is okay... She had quite the setup and large number of trees.

Thanks jenny. I didn't realize that. She is on one of the FB citrus pages I use, and she hasn't replied when tagged either. Maybe she is taking a break from social media. It gets old answering the same questions over and over.

loneroc1, is the Bitters considered a dwarf rootstock? I Googled it and found info saying it produces a small tree which is great for me.

Funny. When I inquired about the VM, Ruth said they would be available this month and she would email me. I agree not to rely on her for announcing when trees are available. I have found communications from them terribly lacking from past dealings.

Hi Denise,

From the literature it looks likely to be a semi-dwarf, though Ruth called it a dwarf. Really, only Flying Dragon gives you the dwarfest tree, and my satsumas on FD (planted in the ground) are pushing seven feet. If you're going to grow citrus in a pot the difference between dwarf and semi-dwarf shouldn't be super significant.

For my purposes, I like FD because my greenhouse soil runs 40°F for three months during the winter and FD tolerates that well. FD is also supposed to produce the very highest quality fruit, up there with the obsolete sour orange rootstock (not dwarf).

But I haven't found a VM on FD.

Enter Bitters/C-22. It' supposed to be a veeeery efficient cropper. That, and the more vigorous growth than FD might help compensate for the inherent weakness of a variegated tree. The fruit quality of Bitters is supposedly a bit lower than FD. One paper said that Bitters tended to grow the fruit inside of the tree canopy. I would expect removing a few shading leaves would help the fruit sweeten up a bit more and expose those lovely stripes!

Bitters is also more tolerant of high ph soil than FD. That's another plus---less chlorosis if you'e got hard water like I do. Bitters can tolerate higher salinity than most other rootstocks, too.

I could find nothing useful for me on cold tolerance. Bitters has got C. trifoliata and a cold hardy mandarin in its background. That's a good sign.

Just some thoughts. I would never, ever, ever buy a fruit tree without knowing the rootstock it's grafted onto.

Steve H

One note on bitters - mandarins grown on it tend to be larger than on other rootstocks, so there’s a possibility that the minneola will not be so dwarf on C-22. That being said, C-22 appears to be a promising new rootstock and my xie shan on it from Harris has done well so far.

I don't know much about root stocks so the information shared was valuable. I grow in containers so knowing the characteristics of the root stock will help me understand likes and dislikes in growing future trees. I don't understand how the root stock affects the grafted variety of citrus. I thought root stock only affects the bottom part of the tree and not the fruit quality or location of where the fruit actually grows. It looks like I need to take a class in Rootstock 101. lol

Hi Denise, Here's quote from the Monterey Nursery website that captures the citrus rootstock dilemma quite nicely I think. All we can do as a home grower is gather the best info we can about the entire tree we want and want to grow well.

"But we aren't dealing with apples here, where an M26 or M111 will produce essentially the same relative results across the board. Shed completely the idea that you can pick "the best rootstock" because it doesn't exist yet, for any variety. Remember you have to evaluate and trade off characteristics such as ultimate size, early bearing, wet soil tolerance, chlorosis resistance, frost hardiness, total crop size, sweetness, fruit size, suckering, long term graft compatibility, alkalinity tolerance, Phytophthora resistance, Tristeza virus resistance, drought tolerance, calcareous soils tolerance, citrus nematode resistance, root weevil tolerance, canopy fruit position, fruit total soluble solids, seediness, vigor, juice content, trueness to type, Exocortis viroid tolerance, salinity tolerance, rind thickness and texture, fruit maturity date, acid content, mature-fruit hold time on tree, leaf chloride accumulation, rooting depth, mycorrhiza dependence . . . and more. Oh, and in-ground trials will show all those values usually change for each rootstock from one year to the next, sometimes by large amounts. Oh, and a trial in another area, different climate, different soils, can produce different results."

loneroc1 Steve H

All this talk of rootstocks worries me. What if I got a bad one? My shiranui is on Rich, but people seem to love when it’s on Cleopatra or now c22. Is that why mine still has no new growth after 2 months? Should I not buy citrus from FW any more, since their rootstock seems to be less vigor and somewhat problematic? It’s so much harder for us in the northeast (really, anyone not out west or in the south) because our grower options are so limited. I just don’t know enough about rootstocks and have to trust the growers picks the most compatible pairing.

The problem I see is that the developers of citrus are developing rootstock for commercial growers, not the home grower. Our needs are different and we really are at the mercy of whatever the nursery grower chooses to use.

Home growers want the best tasting fruit. So we need to chose trees on rootstock that meats some of our soil conditions that produce great fruit. We can augment our soil to meet the rest of the roots needs that our area is lacking.

poncirusguy, when I was online shopping for a variegated minneola, nurseries don't advertise which rootstock the tree is grafted onto. Even if you do know, it's a take it or leave it situation because not too many nurseries carry this variety and they probably are not willing to custom graft a tree for you. Four Winds Growers refuses to release the name of the rootstock they use. I was given the runaround when I asked about it. I know of only 3 places that sell it and it's not on a dwarf rootstock. Now every nursery I have seen carries a Meyer so there you can be more selective.

Hello Denise a very good friend purchased me a variegated Minneola in May I will be receiving it in a few weeks . The tag says that the rootstock is obo . I believe that the nursery she purchased the tree from had brought their tree's in from Harris . I read somewhere that obo is kinkoji / bloom sweet grapefruit.

Brian

Thank you nulesm. I am not too thrilled about that rootstock because it means fast growing and more root trimming annually. I will have to explore some other options before taking the plunge and getting a tree from Harris.

Alanna - my Shiranui is on Rich and has exploded in growth and blooms since I got it (in April) and put it outside, and it appears that a few new little fruitlets may be forming on it now. Mine was from Harris. One thing to note is that I haven't repotted it - it is still in whatever mix Harris plants in. That mix is very free draining with lots of perlite in it and it dries quickly. Depending on how it goes this summer, I am thinking to just leave it be this year. It didn't appear to be potbound in the nursery pot (as if it had just been repotted not long before shipping).

Just a reminder, Denise. Harris says the newest crop of VM is on Bitters/C-22, not OBO. I think I can live with it, at least I'll give it a crack. OBO would be a deal breaker for me.

loneroc1

Jenny - I should have let mine be. The mix was very fresh looking. I asked Ruth and she said they do not repot prior to shipping, but mine also looked freshly potted. Neither of my Harris trees have done anything I received them on 4/19 and repotted on 4/26. My shiranui is just starting to show signs of a growth flush

Since I did bare root, I got a good look. It was definitely not pot bound, but had incredibly well developed and dense roots (probably partially why it dries so fast). I’m not sure how long before yours will outgrow that pot.

Heres a picture:

Alanna - I have had a "Miss Kim" (Syringa Patula) lilac in a 20" pot since 1998 and it blooms every year - some years more than others due to spring conditions (i.e., if there are early frosts/freezes that might kill the flower buds some years). I have occasionally taken a small spade shovel around the outer edge of the root mass in the pot to "root prune" it (the entire container is roots) and have done some "structure" pruning on the branches about 10 years ago, but have never repotted it or any of my other large temperate container shrubs (including 2 other lilacs in 20" pots from 2009 & 2013, a honeysuckle in a 14" since 2011, and a blueberry that I have had since 1994 in a 12" that only got repotted once when it's old plastic pot cracked).

Due to having to bring these citrus in for winter, they will need to stay in a certain maximum size pot (i.e., one that I am able to carry up and down stairs), and that's it.

I have a 14" to put the Shiranui in once it seems to need a bigger pot and that will be it for it. I recently repotted a plumeria (4 years old this year started from a cutting) into a 14" (a resin/composite pot that is much heavier in weight than the standard plastic pots) and it is currently taller than the Shiranui, so at some point, I may have to cut that back.

Jenny - Like all of us container growers, root pruning will be in our future. Most of us don't have a fork life or the indoor space for giant containers. One day I hope to have a heated greenhouse, but right now most of my trees are still in small pots. I did put the Shiranui in a 7 gal pot and it can probably be up sized once more before I seriously think about pruning to keep it at that size.

I didn't know you could grow lilac in containers. You bring it inside, even though they can handle the winter? I've always wanted honeysuckle too. I thought about growing blueberries in containers too, but my citrus took over. If I ever own a home, I'll have plenty of blueberries. Can you take pictures for me?

Hey Alanna (with apologies to Denise for hijacking her thread temporarily)- My old GW mantra has always been that you can grow just about anything in a container! When you go to a nursery, 9 out of 10 times you are buying a plant that has been "grown in a container" (some may still have very large/mature plants balled and burlapped). ;-) All my temperate shrubs/perennials stay outside year round. The lilacs are Zone 3/4 plants. Note that my townhouse is a rental too so this is why everything I have out there is in a container.

My "baby" lilac (a free "Beauty of Moscow" lilac that I got in fall 2013 with a bulb purchase) was a 6" twig in a 3" pot and was "overwintered" by being sunk in the soil in what became its final container. It spent its first winter outside (in 2013) on the balcony wrapped in frost cloth and a small hand towel, under a foam cooler chest with a 60W light bulb inside, and with an old comforter wrapped around the chest with a final covering of plastic (didn't want to try to overwinter it indoors). In spring 2014, I moved it to a 6" pot and then after a couple months, to a standard nursery gallon pot around the end of June 2014, and it looked like this (plant to the right of the windowbox next to the amaryllis) -

I eventually potted it up to a 2 gallon, overwintered it in that outside with an old towel around it, and then in 2015, I planted it in its final container. This is what it looked like blooming in May this year (2018)... lol (fence is 6ft) -

My oldest lilac is the "Miss Kim" (2 gallon size bought 1998) -

And this is my "James McFarlane" (2 gallon size bought 2009) -

These were all on my covered balcony until 3 years ago and when I moved, the overhead sun literally tripled their growth! lol My citrus all sit as a "2nd row" in front of these so when you see pics of my Eureka or ST or Shiranui, this is what is behind them!

My "Blanche Sandman" honeysuckle May 2018 (bought 2011) -

It is a cultivar of the native American Coral honeysuckle (Lonicera sempervirens) and the hummingbirds ignore the feeder to go to it when it is blooming! It is semi-evergreen.

This is why I say I have little or no room left out there. lol I have like 7 citrus out there too and I have had to juggle where to put stuff based on the sun and the plant preferences.

Wanted to edit to add a pic of my oldest shrub - my 1994 "patio blueberry" (not sure of the "real" cultivar but that is what it was called). It was part of a pair of 6" twigs ordered mail order from some place on the back of a credit card bill envelope. lol

This was from May 2018 -

Its twin finally bit the dust right before I moved. Over the years, I was cutting out the oldest canes (7 years old) and letting the new shoots take over as the new fruiting canes and basically treating it like a bog plant (lots of peat and water with Hollytone fertilizer). Because of the crazy cold/rainy weather this year - especially when this was blooming (which was LATE!), it didn't get pollinated as much as previous years (bees generally go inactive in temps below 60 F). When this was on my hi-rise balcony, I mainly had carpenter bees up there do the pollinating, with an occasional bumble bee finding the flowers. Their probiscuses were often too big to get into the flower so they sometimes punched a hole in the side of the flower. But I got a couple pints of tiny dark purple fruit! And now being on ground level, I do have better access to honey bees in general. My profile photo is of my first "juvenile" male hummingbird perched on this blueberry back in 2006.

Wow! Those are amazing - I despatTely want more plants, but I’m weary of logging more containers until I can find some place a little more permanent. Blueberries and honeysuckle have long been in my list. I even started collection giant pots to put them in, but I keep waiting to ‘settle down’. Now my citrus are my priority. I can’t wait to own my own house and yard...

Alanna - one thing to note about lugging (and that includes the citrus too) - dollies can be your best friend! When I moved, I had to get my plants down from the 18th floor (including down a long corridor to a freight elevator) and me and my sisters did the smaller ones while the movers did the big lilacs. We rolled them on those round wheeled dollies and it made a big difference! :-)

Harris shipped me a variegated minneola on C-22 today. Ruth says that she only has a few that are ready for sale at the moment so it's not going on the website yet. I also ordered a Hirado Buntan and Xie Shan, both on Flying Dragon.

loneroc1 Which size was available and what was the price? Thanks for the heads up. I inquired right after reading your post. I have been waiting a long time to get one of these. I am keeping my fingers crossed that I get a positive response. Thanks again for thinking of me.

Hi Denise, it was the "citrapot" at $20. Shipping to Wisconsin was $16, which I thought was a little high. Still cheaper than a trip to Florida.

Steve H

I bought the 3 gallon. Can you believe the shipping was $20 and I live closer than you. Oh well. My wish list is pretty much complete. If I find a dwarf Byron Sunrise finger lime, I may have to get that and a couple of special lemons from Kelley. I really need to stop adding more trees. I am dreading December. Where am I going to put them all? lol.

Three gallon, huh Denise? I'm confused. If I'd have known that Harris had larger VMs I'd have gone with that. Are you sure that you didn't get the "plain Jane" minneola in a 3 gallon by mistake? I think they had those on Flying Dragon. I almost got one of them, too. In case the VM on C-22 didn't do well in my cold winter soil. But I stuck with just the VM. It's not hard to find regular minneolas.

Steve H.

I asked what sizes were available and she said a 3 gallon and a citripot. I had never heard of a citripot and asked what it was. I even asked if she had a 5 gallon but the answer was no. I doubled checked my receipt since you made me doubt what I ordered. lol. It shows a 3 gallon and the picture on the website when I ordered said 3 gallon. If I was charged $36 for a citripot, I would be really ticked off. There will be more forthcoming she said. I hope I get a really nice looking tree with a straight trunk. Every tree I have ever received from them has had a crook just before the canopy.

A citrapot is a tall gallon, ideal for a commercial grower to plant in the field. The 3 gal that I see on the Harris website looks like a non variegated minneola. I'd double check with Ruth directly if I were you, to make sure they're sending you a variegated minnie If I were me, I'll wait till Friday and see what arrives. My tree shipped this morning and I'm stuck with what cometh.

Steve H

Steve, I spoke directly to Ruth. She said she would have to add the variegated minneola information to the website so I could order it and as soon as I was done, she would take it down. So I had to wait about 15 minutes for the website to be updated with the size I wanted. When it was finally there, I ordered it and called her back to let her know I was done with the process so she could remove the variegated minneola information. Since your size isn't listed either, I would assume she had to do the same thing for you.

Hi Denise, I'm glad you got the variegated version. Glad I got one, too. I'm reaching the age where I hear the siren song of "simplify" and I've gotten rid of tons of "stuff"........ but I keep buying more plants. Steve

I am crossing my fingers that it's a nicely grafted tree because there were only 5 of them total. Not sure if these were just being held back because of the small amount available or somebody was learning how to graft. I am a bit nervous and wonder if I should have waited for the rest of them to be ready. It's going to be a long wait. That's what you get for being impatient. lol.