I would have preferred to see this all done in copper. When you stack valves controls and thermostats it gets complicated with all the ins and outs and hots and colds - so it can look like a spider web, but this doesn't look like high end plumbing to me. And I don't like all the joints / connections - seems like it's just begging for an issue.

My plumber is doing our whole house in copper. Granted we don't have 2x4 walls to support PEX, so there's some "savings" in the less support needed, but I think it is just a higher end product. We do have so pex going under the slab to supply islands, etc - but that made more sense, and he did larger pex in case of a failure - you could use that as a sleeve for the smaller 1/2" that could be snaked inside of it and you wouldn't have to tear up your floor.

Thanks Sophie and just janni.

Sophie, should i have them replace them? Are they a risk for a leak? I was told a plumber would be doing the work, but I never saw one out here.

Yes, they are a risk for a leak. That’s one of the beauties of PEX. One single piece is all you need. Far fewer chances of leaking.

And they need to replace the valve with one designed to attach to PEX. Not copper. That is a sure enough abomination.

The plumbers name and license # should be on the permit

To tag onto what Sophie said: I don't think my plumber installed any elbows or any other type of connections in the PEX runs. The PEX ran right to the fixture/valve and attached. I'm not an expert in plumbing though, just an observation on my recently completed house.

Thank you everyone. Sophie, I provided the three valves. Could that be why they used copper?

The things in red I provided (Kalista). Are the things in green what need to be replaced? Thank you again!!!

freeoscar - I think the contractor’s name is on the permit.

Sorry to keep posting - suru11-it sounds like the pex should connect directly to the valve?

Yes, if you supplied the valve, you supplied the wrong valve, and that’s why they have the stubs to copper. Valves come designed for specific different type plumbing pipe connections. Now you have a stickynwicket. Because that would be something that would be on you. But the angles shouldn’t have been needed. So you have a mix of issues, with mixed responsibility.

I’d want to see the plumbing permit. With the plumber’s license number on it. And if that couldn’t be produced, I’d want full replacement. On them. If they could provide it, I’d go half.

But get the valve designed for PEX.

Thank you very much. I wish the contractor would have told me that a specific valve was needed. No one told me there were even options of pex vs copper.

If I get them to change the angles, can I still use the valves?

I will ask for plumber specific info. I asked in an email if the plumber was on site, and never got a response. They are asking for final payment for plumbing and I would like to know that I am paying for a plumber, not the contractor’s handyman. Only one permit was issued for construction of the whole project, so would not have plumbers license on it.

When I go to kalista’s Website I dont see an option for pex vs copper for the valves. I only see the ones I ordered. Maybe Kalista only sells the copper type?

In our jurisdiction, even though the building permit is in the GC's name, a master plumber must be on site for the plumbing inspection. You might get your answer then.

Your valves seem to have pipe thread fittings. You would use an adapter to go to copper or to pex.

This is what should have been used. No copper needed.

Thank you ppf!!! I will tell him! It needs to be redone I think.

Thank you mojo mom. I will call the city and check on this tomorrow.

The pex should be routed cleanly too. Ideally all lines should drain naturally -- that is no runs that go up then down.

Rockybird - yes the PEX was connected directly to a valve and I believe there was a type of clamp to hold it on. Also, I remember my plumber asked me what type of fixtures I had because he had to get the correct fitting for the mixer (the handle that you turn for hot and cold). He told me it only mattered on my shower, not the sinks.

Also, my DH and I were looking at your pics and really couldn't figure out what was what. What is the large line coming out of the top for? Maybe have the plumber or GC explain. Again, I'm no expert, but it just looks a little whacky to me.

Thank you ppf. I will point this out. I am really not happy with the contractor.

Suru11 - I think it looks wacky also. I cant figure it out. I asked for a meeting tomorrow AM.

Rocky, I took a pic of what my shower lines looked liked before they were closed in. Nothing like yours. I had lots of problems with lots of things, but I can say our plumbers seemed to be good and know what they were doing.

C: that's CPVC. Pex is the newer stuff. Being flexible it doesn't require near as many elbows to go around corners and such. Also,they come in colors so you can easily trace hot (red) and cold (blue).

Yeah - I have "flexible" pex all throughout my house (and last 2 houses). I put flexible in quotes because it isn't that flexible.

I find that some plumbers like to have a bit of copper near valves. They secure easier/better than pex. With pex near a shower valve, it is harder to really secure it in place to give a solid feeling. So I personally have no issue with the copper the way it is because the valve will feel really solid.

There are right angle pex junctions for a reason. Sometimes they make sense. Not sure they do here but either way, nothing horrible.

Now - my negatives may not really be negatives but here they go. In our area, nearly everyone uses red for hot and blue for cold. I think there is a code requirement for it to be obvious which pipe is which. Now you can mark the pipes every so many feet but color is just easier. The plastic junctions they use aren't what we do around here - we use copper crimps. (we being the plumbers not me). That maybe a regional thing. The last thing is the pipes are not secured as often as they should be. Pex has a requirement to be secured where needed - similar to wire. I see some potential movement when water gets turned on. Movement is bad because it can wear the pipe down and it can make noise.

As far as every junction being a potential leak point -that is true. But is it a real issue? Don't tell CPartist it is. She will have a lot more junctions in her walls than you and she will probably survive without a leak. One of the advantages of pex is less junctions but zero is not an attainable goal. Is what you have ideal? Probably not.

Something else - there was a much shorter way of getting to your handheld. All that distance is cold water that needs to be flushed when you turn it on. This is where I would use a right angle and make the shortest distance possible. You probably should move it closer to the valve also to minimize that issue.

Thank you!

Cpartist - yours looks very clean and neat.

David, this is really helpful. Do you mean the handheld should be moved up?

Shouldn’t a plumber have picked up on the issues that you all pointed out?

Here is the w/d. The pic didnt load on the first post:

I just mean as close to the diverter as possible is preferred so in your case, moved down.

For me I have a volume control and then 6 inches to the side is the handheld. You will want to grab it and then turn it on. So they should be close together IMO. You also will want to turn it away from you to flush the cold water. There is always cold water in the visible external hose to flush no matter how close it is to the valve.

The way you have it, it looks like you reach up and over 2 feet. Then turn it on. Why so far? Maybe there is a good reason, I just don't see it. Either way, it increased the time for the cold water flush. Now 120 degree garage, it won't be a huge issue. Vegas? In the winter, will that garage be cold?

(switched computers to my wife's - oops. David Cary here)

Wow... That w/d pic. looks like they built their own manifold?? Tons of joints and T's, etc.

The more I look at it, the unhappier I get. I think that whomever did that was not a plumber. If he holds a license, I don’t think he has PEX experience. This looks more like a job site laborer with just enough of a clue to get the idea of hot and cold. But not enough of a one to provide the correct material choices or best practices.

This is a difficult issue. Here's the thing: so far I haven't seen things that are a "rip it out and redo" definitive issue. What I see is what others have commented on - that it looks "un-workmanship like" and really suggests someone who doesn't know what they are doing. It shouldn't look like this.

Fittings in PEX branches are completely acceptable. Sometimes you can't get PEX to do a 90 degree turn in the space available, for example. That said, a good practice is minimum fittings because it reduces chances for leaks (and reduces material and labor costs).

Transitioning from copper at valve or appliance is common. If you can get a valve with a PEX fitting, great... but if you can't it's no big deal to use a threaded to PEX adapter. Again, best practices is to do the work with the fewest fittings. I second what David Cary said: copper, used at a valve, and anchored, can make a valve feel much more secure than PEX alone (there would need to be copper straps on those copper stubs). In your example though it looks like they stubbed it out to go a different direction than where the lines were run and so there were unneeded joints and didn't anchor the copper. David is also correct that there's not enough support.

The comparison to the PVC plumbed shower isn't really valid. Note that it's all very neat - that's good. PEX will use far fewer fittings than that PVC but it won't be in straight parallel lines - it will be curved.

I think if you pull together your GC and person in charge of plumbing (not the worker) and say... This needs to be redone by someone who knows what they are doing... you will get some pushback, but they will probably agree.

So am I reading correctly that an employee of your GC did this and not a plumber?

You need for your GC to take responsibility for all of his/her contractors. That's the GC's role here. If they don't do it now, it calls into question how much you can trust them on the rest of the job. Sometimes crap work happens on a job - and it's better if the GC finds it before the owner does. But if the GC doesn't take care of these issues then the relationship with the owner can turn contentious really fast. Redoing this plumbing is going to be cheaper than a bad relationship with the client.

You have a little bit of a complication in that I'm not seeing an "over the top" violation, just really bad workmanship. To be clear, it's not the owner's responsibility to know code and "usual and customary" practices. So, when your GC asks you "What's wrong with it?" It's a fair answer to say that you don't know code, but this is clearly a sloppy job.

The good news is that the walls aren't closed up yet and it's not that ugly of a fix if it's done now.

That's a mess. You can bring the hot/cold near with PEX - then use copper.

Thank you for the comments. I have an independent plumber going out to take a look right now.

Sophie - that is exactly who did it - the laborer.

Jake - You are totally right.

When I purchased a Delta shower valve for our rough-in, it had threaded fittings for hot and cold, so at first I thought I needed a threaded adapter for either copper or PEX to attach. However the documentation said the fitting was also sized so that you could solder a 1/2" copper pipe or adapter inside, instead of using the threads to attach an adapter. Since I didn't really want a threaded copper fitting inside a wall (due to the possibility of leaking), we chose to have them solder a 1/2" PEX adapter into the shower valve fitting, and then they crimped the PEX onto the adapter.

There are multiple types of PEX (A, B, C), and the type of attachment is a little different for each. I think the PEX in the picture is Wirsbo brand, since that's the only brand I've seen with that type of plastic ring. Wirsbo is considered to be very good quality PEX, and the fittings hold up well, but you need a special PEX expander tool that is quite expensive. Most of us on a budget use PEX that just slips over the fitting, and then has either a crimper or a compression tool to attach the metal ring that keeps it in place.

Bruce

Not being a real plumber, I don't know for sure about this, but that drain for the w/d looks suspicious. Usually, it should be a stand-pipe with a trap at the bottom, not just a straight pipe which is part of a vent.

Of course, they may intend to put a box with a trap in it at counter height.

It’s a weird installation. If it’s code compliant there may be little you can do to get this improved.

Because of cost (material and labor), PEX lends itself to a home run manifold layout (very expensive with copper so that’s usually daisy chained). You seem to have a concealed in the wall DIY (by the laborer) “manifold”. Strange. There are very nice manifolds available with valves that allow control of each branch. Similar to an electric panel. That’s what I would insist on.

@weedmeister -- you are looking at plumbing for a sink. The washer dryer is on the opposite side of the wall. See the white box with the ears?

@rockybird -- It looks like you have hot and cold here feeding a sink and a washer. Guessing the lines shown in red and green should be hot and cold respectively. If you follow the green line, does it tie into the same line as the red?

It looks like you have a stacked washer dryer -- correct?

My first reaction to those pictures is that those sweated copper joints are sloppy (a lot of excess solder and blobs), which suggests to me that this is not the work of an experienced plumber. I mention this simply because, with that lack of workmanship, I would want to scrutinize everything else he did.

kudzu9: I too noticed the pipes and fittings were overheated - copper oxide turns black. No that it won't hold together - but someone who was inexperienced did the work.

I had a plumber look at everything. He says that there needs to be nail plates and the hoses need to be secured. He said that the cold water hose should be shorter. He thought everything else looked okay.

@ppf - yes it is a stacked w/d and the other side of the wall is a sink.

@kudzu9 and geoffreyb- thank you. His laborer did it. He is telling me that his plumber looked at everything. Are you saying it wont hold together?

I'm not saying the copper won't hold together. It's just that people who are supposed to be plumbers and who sweat solder a lot worse than I do may not put other things together properly, or care much about workmanship, or do things in a way that won't fail down the line.

It will hold. It's just sloppy. Like I would have done the first time I ever soldered any thing.

I really appreciate the help. I dont know what else to do at this point. The contractor is upset with me for getting a second opinion. This AM I told him I wanted to speak with the plumber. He got angry but said we could have a conference call. I told him to forget it if it was gong to irritate him so much. I dont know enough about plumbing to point out what is bad about the job to the contractor. If there’s a chance it will fail, it needs to be redone. I spent a lot of money on the bathroom tile. I dont know how to approach this.

rockybird

Let's be clear about a few things:

1. You are the owner. You have hired the contractor. The contractor is providing a service in exchange for a significant amount of money.

2. You do not need to worry about the contractor being upset or angry - that's on him, not on you. You are not responsible for his feelings.

3. You are not an expert on plumbing, you don't have to be an expert on plumbing. Do not be bullied into thinking that because you are not an expert on plumbing, you do not have standing. You are the owner and the customer.

4. The work that was done doesn't inspire confidence. It looks bad. It was not done in a workmanship like manner. You know that instinctively or you wouldn't have posted on here. We confirmed your suspicions that it looks like crap and like it was done by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. That's all you need to know.

5. If your contractor is upset that you want a second opinion, that's too damn bad. Seriously. If he doesn't like it, then he shouldn't hire workers who produce that kind of work. Here's the test I've talked to all of my guys about: If I posted a photo of the work that was done and put your name on it, would you be embarrassed or proud? If you would be embarrassed for someone else to see it, then you better fix it. That's exactly what I would say to your contractor. Most people in the trades have pride in not only doing work that is "up to code" but also work that isn't sloppy or un-workmanship like.

6. This is a defining moment for your relationship with your contractor. If you don't stick to your guns, then you are going to have trouble with him from here on out. You aren't out to bust his chops, you aren't being unreasonable -- he screwed up and you want him to fix it. Again, I don't see anything that is going to cause imminent failure, but this is really crappy workmanship. If he doesn't like you calling it crappy workmanship then he shouldn't produce plumbing work that looks like that.

Conference call my a**. Tell the GC that you want the plumber who will do the work to show up and do it correctly. A real plumber - not a helper.

geoffrey_b

I agree. The option would be for your GC to get a real plumber in there and do it right, or you will hire someone and deduct it from his contract.

It’s time your builder gets metaphorically smacked around. He is being a jerk.

Presumably, there is a plumbing permit tacked in the window somewhere or another that lists the name of the Master who holds the license. Helpers are not supposed to perform the work except under the “supervision” of the license holder. That supervision does mean more than shooting a phone pic to him for grunts and giggles.

If there isn’t a plumbing permit, that’s due to your builder. And that is a come to jeebus meeting. It’s not acceptable. Period.

If there is a permit, and a not even plumber’s helper, but a builder’s gofer was allowed to do this work, and the plumber is OK with that sloppy work, he won’t mind it being publicized. Nor will your builder.

That conference call is a ship move. He needs to have an in person meeting, where everybody does a touchy feely standing right there. Would he accept something so sloppy, and unprofessional looking in his own house? From a total novice without adequate supervision?

Sophie is right, this isn't a conference call. This is an in-person meeting where the three of you are looking at the work that was done and everyone can see that you aren't happy - and that you mean business.

I would say - "this looks like crap! Both of you better figure out how you are going to get a real plumber in here to do this right, because if you don't, I will." I'd tell the GC that this isn't the quality of work that I expect from him going forward.