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Patio Garden design/plant advice - Zone 6

8 years ago

Great advice in the Houzz threads so hoping this group can provide some ideas for my patio in zone 6 (outside NYC). I have been trying to create a perennial bed that mostly has flowers for about 10 years with limited success. Seems I try new plants every year and mostly they either fail by Fall or only last a year or 2. Background and more details below.


My patio is bounded by 3 walls (North, West & East) with the South being a wood fence. The southern end is the most exposed to the sun. However I have a container bed (for lack of a better description) at the northern end. All the plants all at the North end grow towards the southern light. I've attached a diagram below showing the general layout.


The northern wall/container bed has a vine that I have trained to grow up the brick wall. It is about 15 ft high. Mixed in are what are supposed to be climbing roses (not sure if they are since they don't seem to be doing to much climbing). The bed itself just has mostly small evergreen shrubs at the moment.


We have had some new buildings on the south side so the patio now only gets direct sunlight from about 11am - 2:30pm. The patio also gets pretty hot mid-day. Usually a few degrees warmer than the weathermans temp when there is direct sun. On a positive note, we do get a breeze.


Where i would love ideas and advice is as follows:

1. I have been trying to create a lush growth up the wall that allows the fountain to be a central focus. Originally, my idea was to have the roses dominate around the fountain and the vine fill in around it. The reverse has happened. The vine dominates and the roses periodically peak through. Fountain is mostly hidden.

- I am toying with the idea of ripping the vines/roses out and just starting over. If so, what type of plant(s) would give me decent growth with flowers, especially given the heat and limited sunlight?

- Should I just give up on the roses and let the vine take over? (if roses won't grow well enough to fill the wall)?

- Should I rip out the vine and just keep the roses?

- is the plant bed simply too small to support all this and needs to be extended out and/or made deeper?


2. I also want a nice mix of plants spread around the container bed. I've been trying to create a layered look with the vines/roses up the wall, something tall and flowering in the bed and smaller filler plants for variety and maybe to fall over the wood frame. However, I have tried so many and none except hostas and the small evergreen shrubs have ever done well. Hostas aren't really the look I want and am inclined to remove the shrubs. But then what to put? I have tried plants such as English lavender, Astibles, Baptisia, Columbine, Tradescantia to no avail.

- i am thinking the evergreen shrubs may have blocked sun from all the other plans and just removing them will help?

- are there any recommended plant options I should consider?

- any ideas for a better design/use of the container bed?


I'm stuck. Any ideas would be appreciated!


Patio Diagram - area in grey is the container bed. It is bounded by a wood wall 17 inches in height.



View of the North wall




Plan area - closeup





Comments (9)

  • PRO
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    It is the pictures that make the difference in whether people understand what is said, or if they don't. Here, I'm puzzled, you want a fountain to be the focus of a patio, but I don't see ANY fountain in either of the pictures. Or, maybe if it's there, it's not clear that it's a fountain. To read the description, it sounds like plants aren't performing, but in the picture, it is virtually a solid wall of plants. Roses are not going to bloom without enough light. But there's no picture that clues us as to how much light you're getting. Need to see the opening to the sky relative to the garden. Too much is unknown (unseen.) Try taking a series of slightly overlapping photos from a SINGLE camera viewpoint. That's one way of showing more when you can't back the camera up farther.

  • 8 years ago

    Have you tried just trimming around the fountain?

    Yardvaark, I couldn't see it at first either. It is a plaque on the wall beneath the vine.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago


    Thank you both for taking the time to comment. I've added a picture showing the south wall (from a rainy day) which is where the get sun. And yes, I could also trim the vines around the fountain but my question is more fundamental.


    Let me try to be clearer about my request. My intent with the wall and container bed is to have a layered look with (ideally) a reasonable level of flowers growing up the brick wall. In the container bed there would also be a mix of colorful perennial plants. Yes, the wall is well covered but it is mostly the ivy vine. That seems to be the only thing that consistently does well. Therefore, I am wondering if the ivy is overwhelming everything else and should be removed and replaced with something else. I like the idea of climbing roses but what I have today has done only so so.


    Then I have the issue that the other plants in the container bed never seem to do very well. Again, maybe this is the ivy and/or evergreen bushes overwhelming them. Or perhaps just not enough sun for what I am trying to accomplish and I have to rethink my plant approach.


    Ultimately, I am just hoping for ideas of how to make best use of the space that I have.


    Hopefully this is a little clearer.

  • 8 years ago

    The vine is Parthenocissus tricuspidata, Boston Ivy. Since it's thriving I'd let it continue to do its thing. However it will need regular maintenance trimming to keep it within bounds. In a situation like this I think you have to go with what will grow, not necessarily what you wish to grow. I'm afraid that given the situation 'mostly flowers' just isn't going to happen. GG has given you a good list of shade tolerant plants for this kind of situation. I'd add Pulmonarias and an underplanting of hardy Cyclamen hederifolium in either the usual pink or more restrained white. And cram in the small spring bulbs which flower before the foliage blocks all the light. The lion's head wall fountain is a well know device for small enclosed gardens, such as are found in cities. Another is a weatherproof outdoor mirror amongst the foliage which optically enlarges the space. But that would be better on the opposite fence so as not to blind you in summer.

  • PRO
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    What she said. (Gardengal)

  • PRO
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    some ideas:


  • 8 years ago

    Thanks all for the advice and suggestions!

  • 8 years ago

    Just to add, certain cultivars of Brunnera and Pulmonaria are very silver, and they really light up shady areas. There's also a gold leafed cultivar of Brunnera (sorry, can't remember the name) that also glows in shade.