I agree, not only is it difficult to compare LED to other types of lamps, it’s hard to compare LEDs lights to other LEDs. Prices seem to be all over the place, no recognizable manufacturers, I don’t even recognize the names of companies reviewing LED grow lights.

I do have some lights made by Apollo that I use to winter some fruit trees in my basement. I do get citrus to flower and produce fruit. I had a mango flower but the fruit dropped. I found them on Amazon for a reasonable price.

You may find this interesting. Light Comparison.

tj

Thanks for your responses. I'm so happy someone agrees with me. TJ, this is interesting, but again, a discussion of spectrum. The concern addressed in my post is really once of overall intensity or "reach." It is well known that, despite a good spectrum, intensity fall-off for fluorescents is a serious issue. They say how great it is that you can place LEDs so close to your plants because there's not much heat. But if you've got a taller plant that wants 3500-4000 FC, or if you want go grow vandaceous orchids, are LEDs your best choice? It's annoying that the LED craze apparently prevents clear statements regarding these concerns. No amount of digging can really resolve this issue unless you're a light physicist, so one depends on practical experience of others and there isn't much being said. There is one article that I found which seems promising. High Intensity White Light LEDs

Thanks, Bob. Nice endorsement. I myself didn't use 1000 watt HID but I was using 500 watts, two bulb reflector, one each of HPS and MH. I don't think the ceramic was around then. And yes the heat was a problem. I just don't know what a "lumen" means to my plant. I can measure footcandles on a filament bulb with x-number of watts and I know what that means because orchid authorities tell me what it means. No one is saying that a cattleya needs x-number of "lumens" to flower. I don't mean to complain about the technology per se, but it seems so odd and suspect to me that there aren't clearer statistics about what a given LED lamp configuration can and can't do. That said, I take courage from your statement, and will try to stop looking for correlations to a technology that is fundamentally different.

What is your grow area like? Are there windows?

I've flowered Catts and Dends using CFL's with large SW windows.

Never dealt with using lights as the exclusive source of light.

Jane

John,

I use a "spare" bedroom with 1 east facing window (with supplemental LED lighting) for my winter grow room.

I flower about every type of orchid using LEDs and flouros. I use 8 LED floods in total all between 23-27 watts and about 2000-2500 lumens each. I have 7 of the floods covering an @ 5'x5' area with several phrags, 3 nodosas, 2 encyclias, an onc, a couple of phals on the outskirts and a few catts scattered throughout, the lights sit @ 10-20" over the tops of the plants. They all do fine and usually flower while under the lights.

I also use 3 2 light 2' LED shop lights in certain areas and have a three-tiered light cart with 12 4' T12 flouros. The light cart was my starting point for indoor growing 15 years ago. I still get great benefit from the light cart as I can stack orchids on 3 tiers thus tripling the floor space. My mini-catts and vandas and other shorter plants go on the cart. When the time and money are right, I'll replace the 12 T12 flouros with the newer T12 LEDs.

I summer my orchids outdoors which helps them get through the winter.

Bob

The LED lights I have are the type with the blue and red diodes which makes it even more difficult to compare the light out put.

Another thing that makes it confusing is that the 3 fixtures I have are 300 watts each. I have them plugged into a WEMO device which turns them on and off and it also tracks power usage. I'm showing around 400W total for a 3 fixtures. So if 300 watts isn't the power usage and watts isn't really the light output, why put wattage on the fixture?

James,

I used to use the red/blue/white combo LEDs too. I think mine were in the 180 watt range with 10,000-15,000 lumen output. Ignoring the pinkish light color they performed very well. Mine had fan issues eventually and I switched to the LED floods, which seem to perform just as well for me.

Good discussion.

Bob

John,

Back to one of your other questions: I think that the more lumens the more footcandles produced, but I am not aware of a conversion factor that can be used. I've never used one but I understand you can use a good camera or there are phone apps that will measure the amount of footcandles in an area.

How you arrange the lights makes a huge difference in the amount of light (footcandles) that gets to your plants. A tight grouping obviously gives more light/footcandles than the same lights spread out.

As far as I am concerned it isn't rocket science, just put up a few and add more or adjust height/density if needed.

Bob

Bob,

Are you using a grow flood light or a regular flood light?

Jane, the area I'm working on now is in front of a large picture window. With Bob's helpful suggestion, I'm going to use LED floods in shoplight reflectors suspended from a curtain rod for that one so there will be some natural light involved as well. Not too worried. Eventually I'll work on a more expansive enclosed growing area in my downstairs "family room." This is the one that I'm trying to gather information about. Completely dependent on artificial lighting for several months. I'm looking forward to working with cooler fixtures than the HID I've used before. I also will have the new luxury of summering outdoors,

Bob, this is some of my confusion. I might have it wrong, but I think taking a footcandle reading from LEDs it would be similar taking a footcandle measurement from fluorescents. It's a different technology, not a true indication of the light's efficacy. So we're really back to the trial and error scenario, which I feel more willing to chance with your experience and success. Thank you so much for providing such detail of your arrangement and technique. I'm kind've a control freak and like doing things by the numbers and knowing the results I can reasonably expect. This approach can be self-defeating.

Also, in general, I think I'm underestimating the benefit of cooler lights. Not only can you get them closer, but cooler lights won't dry out the air so much. Better for aerial roots and new roots heading into medium before they dry out.

James,

Regular floods in the 3000-5000 Kelvin range.

Bob

I had to order the floods but they arrived today. After jerry-rigging one of them to a camera tripod (waiting for my on-order curtain rod) and plugging it in I was very happy. Such a nice clean white (3000K) with just a touch of warmth. I'm excited. It casts a distinct but soft-edged shadow on plants when my hand is held about a foot away. The light is from 22" - 28" away from plants. And no heat !! I'm even a little worried that the light might be too strong for phals at that distance. One of the more pleasant concerns I've had growing under lights.

Not sure if this is the place or time to bring this up but I thought I would.

I am using 100 watt daylight LED bulbs about 6 inches above my orchids. It is very very bright but no heat from these bulbs.

Is there a better set of lights to use or does anyone have anything they use that tops this?

My boss has regular florescent bulbs feet above his Phals and they are growing gang busters.

Does it even make a huge difference whether it is just florescent, LED, or the fancier more expensive bulbs?

Lowe's sell small florescent strip lights T5 bulbs for 9 bucks, strip and all.

Mike

I use both flouros (twelve T12s) and LED floods, I need to have the plants MUCH closer to the flouros (4"-12") to get the same strength of light as from my floods(16"-30"). My floods are 200-250 watt equivalents so they are a little more powerful/give more light (2x or more) than the 100 watt equivalent that you are using.

I also use three 2' 2 light LED shop lights over a couple of areas. The plants sit much closer to these lights (similar to the flouros) than plants under the LED floods.

I always try to find the bargains at big box stores. I usually spend $15-$20 for my LED floods and the LED shop lights were @$15/ea. I replace my twelve T12 flouros about once a year, they're @4/ea.

Although the LED floods are supposed to last 20 years or so, I've blown two or three over the last 3 years. They don't really blow, just stop working. Much better than when a CFL decides to 'blow' and smoke.

As far as your boss, is there any natural lighting? I've had many phals/orchids in an office environment over the years, and they only did 'well' with some natural lighting/sitting close to a window.

Bob

Bob. I think I remember in another post that you had a pic of your setup in the spare BR, but can’t find it. Would you mind showing it again? Thanks.

Here's a panoramic shot of my grow room from last year. Not much has changed...

Bob

Thanks!

Meyermike, I’m fairly new to LEDs for growing plants. I looked up your bulb 100 watts equivalent, 14 watts actual. It is rated at 5000K and 1400 lumens. You didn’t specify brand but I imagine most household LED “daylight“ bulbs at this wattage would be roughly equivalent. They say that 5000k is “like daylight“ but my reading supports a balance closer to 3000 or 3500K, a little warmer and also a little more people friendly IMHO. If you’re trying to use a single bulb for full cycle plant growth, indications are that 3000 or 3500K (Kelvin) might perform a little better in the flowering stage than the 5000 range. This may be so much hearsay but maybe these concepts will help form a base for your further inquiries. I don’t really speak “Lumen” at this point, but Bob talks about his lumen levels earlier in this post

John, it's the Philips 100 watt LED daylight bulbs. I use the cone light fixtures that many use in garages and clip them anywhere I want. I like Bob's flood lights! Seems to spread much more light too.

Thanks for all that info. I have not got a clue as to what it all means. I know the ones I use are doing great for my citrus trees and use very little energy, thank God. It's all about the electrical costs with me. It's so darn expensive if you are not using the right lights. I was using CFL but they heat up quite a bit.

Bob, did I ever tell you that the Angracium you gave me flowers? I will show you once it's in bloom! I will never forget that. Nice set up.

Bob, can you take another picture of that shelf set up you have? I would love that. I really need to see that set up closer. Get some ideas.. Great job.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-100-Watt-Equivalent-A19-LED-Light-Bulb-Daylight-2-Pack-462002/206923041?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CG%7CVF%7CD27L%7C27-1_LIGHT_BULBS%7CPhilips%7CPLA%7C71700000033101434%7C58700003865771159%7C92700035077037211&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwInSz7HG3gIVkoizCh39tAUCEAQYASABEgJ7b_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Mike

Here's the exact cart I purchased @15 years ago: 3-tiered cart. The only difference is that mine uses T12's not the T8's shown. When I purchased mine, T8's were pretty new technology. Cart is 4'x2' with 3 tiers and drip trays. I added 4'x2' light egg crate filters (the kind used to help conceal flouro ceiling lights) to sit my plants on over the drip trays.

I like my cart because it flowers things well (shelves and lights are easily adjustable up and down) and triples my useable floor space from 8' to 24'. Most plants sit anywhere from 2" to 6" under the lights.

Here's a closer shot of the cart from last year, it's actually much brighter than indicated in this pic.

Bob

Bob, what is the catt on the top shelf? Looks a mini or compact variety....

Bob, I LOVE your set up. I too have a three tie cart. I am trying to figure out if I can rig up lights like that. I am not sure if you mentioned up thread where you got the bulb holders?

Did you tie them to the rack to support them? Looks like it's very bright even in this picture. I'll bet you leave water in the drip tray to collect moisture for humidity? Do you use a fan or no need to? maybe the warmth fro the lights evaporates the moisture enough to not need one?

Great job! Looks like you have room for another small fragrant orchid))

I love the mini chips ones. So easy to grow and they smell so good

Paul,

Sorry but I can't tell what specific catt that may be from the pic, as I have @12 mini/compact catts. I freed myself of 5 standard sized catts earlier this fall to make room for the growing minis.

Mike,

The fixtures came with the cart. If you look at the pic in the link, you can see where there are adjustable 'screws' on each side of the light that ride a track up and down, the shelves have adjustments every 4".

Bob

Paul,

I found the orchid: It is Slc. Circle of Life 'Mesmerize' x 'Pot. Lynette and Alan 'Gene's Flare' from Carter and Holmes. I think that was it's first bloom and it is still with me and doing well. Here's a couple of closer shots of it from December of last year, one with it on the light cart and one with me holding it in the room light after staking two weeks later. You can see the slight color change over the two weeks.

Thanks, Bob! Quite nice. But only 12 catts?! Come on man! Buy, buy, buy! heh

If any of your catts areready for dividing this spring, drop me a note. Orchid-wise, I do mostly mini and micro-minis in general and more specificially with catts only mini and compact catts. (True mini catts being no taller than 6" and compacts being 12" tall or less.) Perhaps a trade can be put in the works. :-)

Bob,

thank you for letting us know the cart you use and your set up. Was it expensive and where do you even begin to find one?

How is your electric bill with the lights on now? Is it a significant jump? You are right, even for me it seems the LED are the best and more cost effective.

You like Cattalaya?

Is that one fragrant and does it stay compact? I love it too. It so unusual in color and not big at all. I am looking for smaller fragrant ones that take up little room as you have on your set up. Some Catti's can get way too large. I had to throw out several over the summer to make room.

You remember sending me the Angraceum a few years back? Would you like to see a pic of it?

Oh, what is your favorite type of orchid?

I asked you questions about the drip trays. I was wondering how you provide humidity and if that is even a concern for you during winter?

Paul,

you are too funny! I can never get enough of orchids! I have a ton in just one room on a window sill flowering as we speak, and then some in the greenhouse, and yet others in my warm grow room upstairs...Ugh

Have you ever seen an orange flowering fragrant one? Once it's able to be divided, I will keep you in mind. James here got me hooked on orange flowers.

Mike

The variety of different orchids has always been an appeal. Most folks only know of Phalanopsis or maybe Cattleyas. Soooo many others out there.

Paul,

I grow about 70 orchids in total, I believe catts and phals are my two biggest groups, but I grow a little bit of everything. Not all compact and/or mini either, I have some fairly large phrags and phals. I also have 2 specimen sized dendrochillum wenzelliis (red and yellow) which have at least 1000 growths each. One is in an 8" pot, the other is in a 7". My red wenzellii is spiking currently, I'd guess at least 100 spikes have formed with @50 very small flowers per spike. The yellow one (which is the larger of the two) had >250 spikes last year. I was going to divide them this summer, but they were doing well and I thought I'd see what they looked like in flower one more time before dividing.

Sounds like twould be quite the impressive sight in bloom! Personally, I force myself to stick to mini to compact plants with very few exceptions. *sigh* Just too little space when one is an apt dweller.

Bob, did you see my post I addressed to you?

Paul, I did offer you a division on my Cat when it gets bigger, but I guess you did not see that also.

Mike

Mike,

I purchased the cart with lights for @$600 from the sight I gave you in the link.The cart comes with 4 drip trays per shelf. I water my 'kids in place on the cart where the drip tray collect any excess. As far as humidity, I spray/mist the collection once or twice a day when the humidity gets below 25% in cold, cold winter. As far as electricity, there is a slight increase but I'm not sure how much as I'm total electric so it kind of 'blends' in with the rest. No fragrance as I recall on the mini. Yes I do remember the ang, it must be huge by now.

Bob

@Mike: Yo Mike! If it was the orange orchid you mentioned, I wasn't sure if it necessarily was a catt or other orchid -- not that that would matter. ;-) I actually have two orange catts. One is Jewelbox 'Orange' which hasn't flowered for me in a couple years. Not 100% sure why though the fact it hasn't been fertilized in a few years could be part of the issue. (Surprisingly, have a number of chids that bloom despite my forgetfulness with feeding.) The other is which has a flower similiar to Slc Ginny Champion. Actually got it as a replacement for a Ginny Champion I had had for over a decade that died on me. Still prefer the GC -- it was a much smaller plant in stature and bloomed several times a year with one blooming always in October. I totally understand you're getting rid of the large catts. Just take up too much space. I only have a handful of large plants for that very reason. (The one large plant that comes to mind is a parlor palm which was in an arrangement from my grandmother's funeral years ago.) Plants which are minis or micro minis are my preference ... though some compacts do creep in there.

Rather aggravating how few true mini-catts are out there anymore. Many of the old hybrids like Slc. Psyche are no longer available. (That one was a great vibrant red minicatt.)

@Bob: You are a kinder plant parent than I, Bob. Except for my terraruim plants, mine have to deal with my abysmally low winter RH (usually around 10-15%)

Bob, I have been so sick the past few weeks, lack of sleep that I have missed some of the points made here, including the link and other stuff you shared. Now that I have out it all together, thank you and thanks for your patience. it means a lot. You have a great set up you have there and once I save a few bucks, that set up will be mine.

Yes, I can't wait to show you a picture of the plant you gave me in flower. She's spiking now and getting bigger. Not that huge though. Smaller than you think but it flowers every year for me thanks to you. I never forget the kindness shown here. Very time if flowers I thank you in secret.

Paul, exactly! I love the mini plants now. Do you have any that are very fragrant? A favorite? I love the micro chips, oncidiums, fragrant pahls, and mini Cats. I also have the coconut maxillaria and encylo's...Boy can they waft in the air when in bloom! I am going to look up the one you replaced and see what it looks like. Thanks ) Not sure if I spelled all those right.lol