whiteleghorn, I have a table with a routed and scrolled edge, so I know what you mean. Could you use a large slab of marble or a large food-safe wooden board as the work surface on your table? I have both, depending on my needs.

In any case, before redesigning cabinets, I'd recommend that you do a trial run. I'd create a box/platform with the exact dimensions you plan to have built, and then I'd knead something while standing on it to see if it works for you. My gut reaction to any pull-out step thing is that it creates a BAD tripping hazard if it's left out.

Could you use one of those small folding plastic stools? They fold so small that they are only 1” or so thick. I have a medium sized stool and keep it in my pullout drawer (24” wide cabinet), along with the trash can and dishwasher soap, etc. Its so compact, it takes up very little space. The medium size is useful for me to be able to reach upper shelves in my cabinets, but may be to high a step for kneading. There is a very small folding stool, however, that would probably be a good height. I found mine at Canadian Tire, but they are also at hardware stores and probably Walmart too.

A built-in pull-out stool may add more than a $1,000 (or whatever currency your location uses) to the cost of remodeling. It takes out a lot of storage space, and may decrease house re-sale value.

A portable stool is less than $30, and you need one anyway for other uses.

Or get a bread machine to do all your dough kneading.

dcarch

I do not understand this concept of how a step would help you. IMO your thinking about your posture is backwards. What makes your back not be in a neutral position, and ache, is too much distance between you and the surface, whether for kneading bread or working with a too-deep sink.

All you will be doing with a step is increasing that distance. You want to shorten the distance to decrease the chances of stooping. Raise the counter by buying a thick butcher block or marble block that is a 2-3 or more inches thick to knead bread on (experiment with some books or other thick objects to see what feels comfortable).

I'd also work on bending more at the hips with a slight bend to the knees, rather than straight legs and bending at the waist when at the counter, and do yoga to strengthen your core. Strong core improves posture and reduces or eliminates back pain. I am not trying to sound lecture-y; it's what would work.

I use a step stool to get above the dough that I am kneading. I am 5'2". If I stand at the counter and attempt to knead the dough I end up with my shoulders up around my ears causing shoulder and neck pain. Plus I can't use the full strength of my arms as I am in an awkward position.

Be careful what height you get for the step stool and make sure that it is long and wide enough so that if you really need to get in there and knead hard you can shift your weight safely.

Often I end up with back pain so I kick one leg out in a golfer's bend to keep my back straight.

I think the most important thing is that the step stool is very sturdy. And not too high so it is safe to get off of.

Yeonassky- thanks for that insight. I had understood from the OP that it is a lower back pain issue, not shoulders. But what you said about shoulders hunched up makes sense for a step stool. Not sure it would work for the OP, but maybe we need more info about why she feels that a step to increase the distance between her and the kneading bread would be helpful. I too am 5'3" like the OP, and find the 36" counter height to be good, and if I were taller, like my DH, I might stoop more over the counter, which is a a problem. This is a very individual situation.

Sorry but this is making me think of a photo posted a number of times by Sophie Wheeler, in her list of things in the kitchen that should be avoided. She often had tongue planted firmly in cheek.

I have a lower section of counter for kneading. It's also good to have if you want younger kids to help in the kitchen.

Most of the kitchen is standard height so nobody is forced to work at a lower level (and really, most things are best at normal level). It's very ergonomic if you do much bread. You only lose a bit of storage.

If you want a very solid, sturdy freestanding step stool, and I HIGHLY recommend this. We got it for my daughter to help in the kitchen (she loves to cook), but I also use it to reach the higher cabinets and love it. It's very solid and not at all tippy or unsteady. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00VAKZQEY/ref=twister_B07BP1CSC1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Perhaps you should consider buying yourself a nice heavy duty KitchenAid stand mixer?

To Shannon-WII have made my own bread for 40 years, and always at the table. I put my body weight into it, and yes I bend my knees and shift my weight from foot to foot. If I do it at the counter, it is too high to do those movements

Straight legs, and kneading from the shoulder is bad! Hmmm. We are the same height, so some other body proportion?

We had one of these done for the vanity in the bathroom for when the kids were little. It is just a drawer with a pullout wooden shelf over top that you can either use of not use. Now the kids are grown, I just use it as the drawer and don't pull out the shelf part. I'm looking forward to using it with grandkids one day.

It was not expensive, it's easy to use and after you step off, you push it back in and no one has ever tripped on it.

Every once in a while someone on these boards asks about doing this and I am always amazed by the strong negative comments. It was one of the best things I did in our bathroom reno and wish I had been able to do it at the sink in the kitchen, too.

Most people need to have a lower surface (or need to raise themselves a few inches) to knead or roll dough comfortably. This is why baker's have special counters built lower - every common.

Another idea is to have a large pullout cutting board type thing built. I've seen this done in many baker's kitchens. The only problem I can see with that is that it is usually wood and I prefer to work dough on stone. There may be a way around this.

Someone here made themselves a brilliant cart that pulled out from under the counter and contained all their baking supplies and had a lower counter. If I recall correctly, it looked much like any cab run until you pulled it out. I'll see if I can find it.

I keep my heavy duty stand mixer on my lower counter. It's easier to see into. :P

The Kitchen Aid just would not be so easy for me - I like to feel the dough. It tells me when it is ready. Perhaps in a few years time if all else fails.

My back is still good enough.

There has been enough positive comments about the hide-away plinth step to get me asking the cabinet maker if he thinks it would be easy enough.

I know what you mean. And I'm taller than you.

If I had to knead at the counter, I'd have to use a foot stool to be comfortable.

Standard counter height is too high for kneading. I use my table.

I love the idea of a baking station, but I don't have enough room.

Though even a drop down counter would help if you have the room

Baking station

There has been enough positive comments about the hide-away plinth step to get me asking the cabinet maker if he thinks it would be easy enough.

Many years ago, when I was putting in a new kitchen (2004!), several people had their builders install toekick steps

391 toekick step Discussions | Kitchens

Can't find it yet, but here are some other pics of similar altho not quite as nice as the one I'm thinking of.

The baking cart idea is neat, but what bothers me is that the first 2 images appear to have nothing supporting them underneath, when extended, and I imagine over time, kneading doughs on them could stress the under cabinet area and maybe lead to cracking or detachment?

I have a simple cabinet style kitchen cart with 4 wheels, 2 that lock, and an extension that folds out. Perhaps a niche and separate wheeled cart that fits inside would be more practical for kneading doughs on?

And I agree that having a section of counter put in at the most comfortable height for kneading doughs - like that 3rd pic - seems like the simplest solution.

In our old house we had a peninsula that was table height. I made lots of bread for many years. The table height was just right for kneading - I lean from the hips and push into the dough vs using only my upper back, shoulders and arms. In the new house, we only have counter height and it's just not as ergonomic for lots of tasks. I've used a stool sometimes, but it's not great. If you make bread a lot, I'd definitely think how you could incorporate a table height section to your cabinets. It's also a perfect height for using your mixer and most other baking.

Daisychain - Do you know what the wheels on the first photo would be like? They would need to have a strong brake.

daisychain- Was it deedle's kitchen?

If so, OP, scroll down.

And here's another idea for a lower place to knead dough:

Again, you'd want locking casters.

Please forgive me for not reading every reply. I went through some similar thoughts while planning my kitchen. I loved the idea of a lowered baking counter for rolling, kneading, and even using the mixer so I could see down into it. I tried to fit a permanent lower counter, or one with a flip up higher part, or a pull out baking table. Everything I came up with either impinged on the flow of the kitchen, or in some way made it too hard to clean out all of the flour.

Then came enlightenment. I have some too tall to walk on broken sidewalks in clogs. They raise my shoulders the same height off the counters as I would have with the baking station lower counters. And clogs are the next best thing to barefoot.

**WARNING** The pullout step you're talking about should work fine, but there's a very good chance that at some point you'll be very used to it, and working on something fiddly, and forget you're on a box, or where you are on the box, and take half a step too far. This is one of the worst kinds of falls and can lead to any number of kinds of very bad injuries. They put railings around the ones made for little kids nowadays. I don't know how to make the box safer. If you go forward with this plan, you might put some time into thinking how to stay aware, always, that you're not of the floor. Maybe build in a squeak. :)

Leela, I'd forgotten about deedles well thought out kitchen, but while it's a good example, it's not the one I'm thinking of. I think this one had painted white cabs with a marble counter and was fairly small. I can't believe i didn't save a pic of it.

Love that last pic you posted.

The woman who built the house I live in now added a lowered area of the counter almost exactly like daisychain's last photo, but she used butcher block on the top instead of the surrounding counter surface (tile). It is so perfect for doing everything from chopping to kneading - the most used space in my kitchen. I wouldn't want anything that rolls around or that I'd have to lock the casters.

Deedles kitchen is brilliant! I love that extra piece of worktop she created out of the pullout. These ideas are so good. Thank you Daisychain, and Pillog, though I am perfectly capable of going over my ankle in tall clogs.

I want a roll under the worktop island cupboard now.

I wonder if it would slither about?

Actually that green one Leela4 has shown, is even better!! So very cool.

The roll under is plenty safe and a great idea. I've never stepped wrong in the tall clogs in the house, but I won't wear them where there's an uneven floor, and I totally hear you on it. That single step to the ground, however, is just really horrific (a rolled ankle is much preferable!). Both feet on the floor is a much better idea to either.

Talk to your cabinet guy. There should be something like those retracting roller skate sneakers or other clever invention that would allow you to lock and unlock the rollers without having to find and engage a castor lock. For instance, there's a kind of more industrial castor system where the object sits securely on the floor and there's a pedal that raises it so you can roll it, then press the pedal again and it lowers. This kind of think means you can push against it more securely without it moving. Even locked castors will move like a chair, by sliding.

Hey Pillog and all, thanks. I am going to bed now. It is 10 to midnight and cows to feed in the morning! Night night.

whiteleghorn, I'm 5 foot nothing, and I use one of those exercise type steps to cook at my regular height cooktop. My double ovens are in the wall behind me and the step also helps when I'm using the top oven and trying to remove pans. It's both wide enough and long enough to be comfortable and not step off the edge off inadvertently. However, it does get tripped over by other people when I forget to slide it under the counter edge.

My husband and I built an island when we redid our kitchen, and were fortunate enough to find a cabinet that matched my wall cabinets. He cut that down and we topped the entire island with butcher block, so my island is in two sections. That short section is perfect for chopping vegetables, kneading bread, rolling out Christmas cookies and the grandkids use it for decorating cupcakes or cookies. It was really the best idea we had when planning the kitchen:

I hope you are somewhere warmer than I am, and that you get a good night's sleep. We fed cows today at 7 below zero and it's going to be a high of 2 below on Wednesday. Cows have to eat anyway, so we bundle up.

Annie

You can use your Kitchenaid for the majority of the kneading and finish up by hand to avoid back pain.

I have a big piece of corian about 30 by 24....it goes where ever I need to work. I say buy something like that....or find someone to make you a kneading board with an edge on the back and part of the sides and put that on your old mahogany table.
Lots easier than dinking around with a stool or a lowered section of counter.

All those counter tops that pull out worry me. I see the potential for flour getting all over the place and long term cleaning being horrible.

I have a lower part of the kitchen for my gas hob. Lovely.

I bought a good mixer for kneading lol I know it's not the solution you're looking for.

monj47 - I have saved your picture of the rollable baking cart

Or get one of this. Variable adjustable height. Comes with casters.

https://www.workwhilewalking.com/luxor-crank-standing-desk-workstation-reviews

dcarch

Annie 1992 - It is a lovely morning here. Sunshine, blue sky and frost lifting in the sun. Cows fed hens done and time for some paperwork (waste of a good day but needs must).

Your husband and you are both imaginative and clever. I love the fact that the work top has an overhang for ease of knees.

I hope you don't mind me quizzing you about it?

Is that a the step below the hob?

How long is your island in total?

How is it kneading bread on the butcher block. Do you need a silicon mat or does it not stick horribly?

The counter in the baking area in our kitchen is significantly lower than the rest of our countertops. Even though I use a stand mixer for most of my kneading, I love having the lower counter. It's much more comfortable rolling out dough, and working with the mixer and its attachments.

BTW, I'm 5' 9" and my wife is 5' 6".

Eh, I have a 7 qt proline Kitchen Aid and I still do a lot of hand kneading. It's a tactile thing. Once you've learned the feel of the dough you're making, it doesn't do at all to try to stop a mixer every two minutes and test a little bit. (The KA IS amazing for GF bread, which is too soupy to knead. I can make 3 loaves at a time with that thing and it takes a lot of beating to get it smooth.)

I'm trying to design my kitchen to accommodate my baking, too. Think about what surfaces you like to work on. I almost prefer to knead bread on wood. There's just enough grip that I'm not chasing it around, and the flour doesn't "whoosh" out from underneath it as soon as I start. OTOH, I prefer to work pastry on stone, for the thermal sink. I'm 5'7", so I find counter height about right (although I strain if I chased my ball of dough all the way across the counter). For me, it's more about getting my body over my shoulders so I can push down with my weight and not just my upper arms. Less tiring, that way.

I really like that green one above, too. With locking casters, I think it would be ideal. Not only the right height, but having it sort of open on the sides lets you both scootch up closer to it and not worry about stray bits of flour getting in all the crevices of the door moldings. :-)

Thank you for all you support bread makers! It is interesting to see how many of us have issues.

Wouldn't it be great to have a telescopic baking cupboard. On activating this piece of storage, a motor would lower it by the depth of the plinth. - The plinth would disappear into the cupboard walls!

It might take a lot of electrical power to raise it back up though???

If I have time, I would be building a bread station with the following features:

1. A work surface that is temperature controlled. It can be cold or warm. (using Peltier thermal junction devices which can keep both cold and warm by flipping a switch.)

2. A precision temperature controlled proofing box below the work surface.

I already have #2 made.

dcarch

Make it more strong than the office bench shown earlier, and rise and fall makes it duel purpose. It might act as a kitchen radiator too!!!

whiteleghorn, my cows were all in the barn this morning, I leave the door on the south side open so the animals walk in and out at will. The horses were at the feeder but I'm sure they went right back in as soon as they were full! The eggs weren't frozen in the nests this morning, although it was 12 below zero, but I have a snow drift in front of my door about 3 feet deep and my son in law won't plow until tonight when he closes his repair shop, so anything laid today is just going to be sacrificed to the cold!

OK, so my counter is 8 feet long, total, 3 feet wide. 6 feet of it is the "higher" part with the cooktop, and it has a good amount of space to the right of the cooktop so when I do my canning I can remove the jars from the canner and set them on the counter top. The shorter "baking space" is 2 feet deep and 3 feet wide. The left end of the higher piece overhangs the shorter space, giving me about 4 inches to push things like the butter dish or my salt jar under so they don't get knocked over or spilled but are still close at hand.

The black step is that exercise "step" I was talking about, the step classes were a big thing a couple of years ago at the local gym and I bought one. It's the perfect height to just slide under the edge of my counter, but it does get in the way if I forget and leave it out. I guess probably anything would.

I don't have problems with the dough sticking to my butcher block top. AnnT sent me a bench scraper, I'd never had one before and it's great for scraping that butcherblock. I don't worry about marking it, n fact, I wish I had forgone the other counter materials and put butcher block everywhere in the kitchen. It was inexpensive (we bought the "slab" at Menard's and cut it to size ourselves), and I bought a gallon of oil and just kept oiling it until the oil pooled instead of soaking in. Now when it gets terribly nicked up, I run a palm sander over it and re-oil. Voila! Good as new. I don't knead much bread by hand anymore, with my carpal tunnel issues, but I have a Zojirushi bread machine. So it mixes and kneads, then I shape the loaves or buns or whatever and bake them. I also use the space for folding biscuits, rolling pastry for pies and tarts and decorating cakes.

And yes, I love the overhang. Someone can grab a stool and keep me company while I cook or do the canning, or Mother can sit there and chop onions or while saving her back.

Annie

My twin sister had a really tall window in her kitchen, that was framed too low in the wall for standard height counters. When she redid her kitchen, i suggested she drop the cabinet height in that area. She LOVED it, as the slightly lowered height makes it easy to use your own weight when kneading dough.

We did something similar in our new build. Having varied height counters allows both you and your husband to work at a height that is most comfortable for you, without worrying about falling off a stool, or casters marking up/gouging your floors.

Annie's exercise step sounds great. If it's a standard style, there's a little give to it, just enough for it to feel like it's not the floor, making it much harder to forget and make a bad step/stumble.

Yes Pillog, I was looking them up on Amazon last night. Trying to find one the right width and height to go under the proposed cabinet when not in use.

I found a picture here on houzz of one made of wood that pushes under the cabinet . The wooden one looks a bit shallow in the picture, but I expect part of it is hidden under the main cabinet. It looks quite heavy too, so I would be afraid it would mark the floor.

I immediately thought of Annie's kitchen when I saw this post.

Almost every new built or renovation the past 10-15 years has a baking station or an end extension often harking back to the ye olde 'butchers block'. The neighborhood butcher. The big block where they butchered with thick turned legs.

Table height, chair height, counter height, are a standard not a rule. For good reason so appliances will fit. But no reason we can't accommodate ourselves especially for specific needs. And why not build the entire island 4 inches lower than counter height. like many are doing in a counter run or side. Coffee stations, blenders, juicers, baking, grinding (meat and grain), even chopping/meal prep is often best 3-4 inches lower.

My blender base is built into my counter. it is dreamy and so much easier to use with the blender jar right on the counter. Perfect height.

I'm 5'7 and still like doing many tasks lower. Especially all the tasks I mentioned above. if I was 5' I would definitely have a lower entire island and have a kitchen counter run at standard height. Sink run lower.

DH at 6'1 likes a bit higher than standard. So we have 2 and 1/2 foot long 2" high butcher block at both homes for his baking prep station. he just moves them to wherever he choses to work.

lots of pics like your pull-out step. I think I used 'kitchen counter toe kick step' in a google image search.

Any good cabinet maker could make one easily. lots of hardware choices to keep it rolling out smooth and not damage the floor. I would want to be able to pull out with my foot and push it back in same. One I saw used library step-stool wheels.

For a pull out if you have the room, I'd rather have the entire cabinet pull out. (needs a back cleat/stop so you can push your rolling pin back and out of the way without rolling off and to contain flour)

Personally I would just build into the counter a lower baking station. A counter depth butcher block could easily slide on a backsplash cleat towards the sink covering your baking station and making your counter back to standard. All but one of our baking recipes could rest/proof right where they are and out of the way.

My gut renovation station is based on the old Hoosier cabinets. (all were 3-4 inches lower than todays counter height)...I have one in the barn. I have the exact one in the link, [HERE[(https://www.houzz.com/magazine/must-know-furniture-the-hoosier-cabinet-stsetivw-vs~39817241) ,the first pic. Mine will be a custom built-in and 30inches deep. That renovation is on hold as I can't bare the disruption, ; ). An 1880 seaside saltbox that functions fine as-is for now. Vacation home.

I would have the top surface of the baseboard pullout platform painted a vivid color.

Depending on where it is located in the kitchen, it can be a dangerous tripping hazard, especially if you are holding a boiling pot of soup.

Also, it would not be a big deal to design a hidden pulley system so that you don't have to bent all the way down to pull it out and push it in, which can be an issue to people with a back issue.

dcarch

Good ideas sleevendog.

I am sorry to here about your reno holdup but strangely comforted too.

I thought I might have been the only one in the whole world who chased the builder in the middle of the reno because I could not stand the disruption and things were changing away from my plans faster than I could cope with. That was 4 years ago. I then had some caring to do, but now is the time to get going on this reno once more.

I would love a kitchen island which had a lower part.

But I am coming to the conclusion that since the kitchen is the dining room too, I need to prioritise the location of the dining table and the circulation space around it.