Bill, keep the humidity up by misting with water and providing a plastic dome or suspending (or just laying) some kitchen plastic wrap over them for a few days until the husks come off by themselves.

I put the domes on last night and there was condensed moisture under them this morning.

I was under the idea that as soon as seeds start to germinate, one should remove the hood to help eliminate things damping off.

Is there anything to worry about if they don't come off? Or so they just sort of disintegrate over time?

I lightly misted them with water now and put the hoods back on for tonight.

nature has a way of taking care of this sort of thing.. all by itself ... across a broad spectrum of plants ... i wouldnt worry about it ...

since you have many.. you can try to do something .. but i would let them get a bit more less tender ..... before you go picking at them ...

i dont think they will disintegrate.. it will be more of the interior expanding and escaping ...

now.. could i take my own advice.. probably not .. i would be down there every hour.. stabbing at them.. lol ...

think in tree time.. whats your hurry ...

ken

ps: congrats on your success .. now try not to screw it up.. by loving them to death ....

I have a few Picea abies recently germinated. They are already expanding husks with multiple needles. So it appears the Thuja are more wimpy in that way with a single needle pushing.

As tender as the stems are, picking at them is not an option. I'll just wait'm out. :-)

If all survive, there are 500+ altogether.

It's for a wildlife project, perfection is not expected.

Thanks!

The last few years I've grown out thousands of Thuja occidentalis seedlings that had been thickly sown in flats, I grow such large numbers in hopes of finding desirable variants. Anyways, most of them do come up with their seed coats attached and those that do not push off in a timely manner will soon die. My practice is to mist them and keep plastic wrap over the flats for a period of three or four days and basically every husk had been shed, and no I have't had an issue with dampening off. Yours might wiggle themselves off unassisted, though since I strive to have as many as possibly survive, I do as above. I also grow all kinds of annuals and perennials and again, this being the way to minimize seedling death due to seed coat adherence.

There's no 'picking' them off. They are stuck to the point you either pull the stem out of the ground or break off the stem. Maybe because they were left on too long?

A few have shed the husk on their own since last night and today. And quite a few show a length of green between the stem and husk. I left the hoods on all day today and will again tonight.

I misted them once more now and will check on them in the morning.

Looks like my 100% germination success may diminish as time goes on.

i figured there was no way to pick them off.. lol ... they are just too tender ...

after sleeping on it.. i wonder if they dried.. they might flake off ...

who knows .. you will... soon enough ...

ken

I can see more now without husks and many more showing partial shedding. I'll leave them covered another night.

It would have been better just to leave the hoods on for a week after noticing germination, live & learn, but as it is, it's looking a lot better than it did the other day.

I have another small food tray, that I seeded T.o. quite heavily, that is starting to poke up now.

And there's also a small pot with seeds out in the cold frame, so may be sick of Thuja o. by the time this is over. lol

I see you have multiple growing from seed projects. :) What are you going to do with so many seedlings (in case all of them survive) by the way?

Don't worry about those hoods. The plant will push them off in due time.

Frank

Norbert,

I lost many of my seeds on the heat mat, thermometer read 78f but it must have cooked some of the containers. I see no response from Ostrya virginianna and only 2 sprouts along the edge from the Picea abies and one of them has shriveled and died. I also have Tsuga canadensis which might take longer but so far no show and I don't know if I got things stratified long enough in the first place. One more Celtis o. sprouted from the egg carton so that's only 2.

The only thing I'll have too much of is Thuja o. that I'm growing for my sons property and there I'm drawing the line at about 100 or so.

I'm hoping to keep for myself: one Ostrya v., Celtis o. and keeping a few of the Thuja o. After that there's always the waste basket. lol

Frank, I see now that there are actually 2 needles that come on the Thuja and they do flex/spread apart when sloughing off the husk. But keeping the humidity high seems to expedite things, although that's possibly just my imagination. ;-)

Thanks!

Been using the high humidity trick since way back when I was a teenager tending to my seedlings. A few years ago, I had significant problems with primulas and lost many to seed coat adherence, though no problems afterwards when really cranking up the humidity for those as well.

oh yeah, It appeared that the husks got softer/looser after misting and I'm sure leaving the humidity domes on made a difference over the last couple of days. Some leave the husk under the ground as they pull up and out.

I'm not to worried anymore bc there are 2-5 sprouts coming in each cell so if I'm able to separate any of them, I'm sure I'll have plenty to fill my 'order' from my son. :-)

FB, at what point will I be able to separate the plants in the cells? Wait for a certain size? Secondary leaves on?

Thanks again!

Bill, unfortunately these little guys won't do a heck of a lot in their first season, or even into their second for that matter, I'd be tempted to leave as be until next spring at the earliest and then thin to the best one or transplant as desired.

If I keep them in the cells, will I have to keep them in a dormant state? Like any other potted conifer, over winter?

Nice set up you have there BIll!

I do like to let them have a rest from November until early March and then slowly transition to warmer temps to awaken them up and get a jump on the season.

When you say 'rest', does that mean temps around freezing?

I have a 'cold frame' which I'm sure will at least have freezing temps most of the winter, will this species be able to take it?

I winter seedlings and tons of other stuff in an attached unheated garage that is well insulated, temp in there bottoms out at about 15 F and thuja seedlings have been fine ... though, a room that's 40 to 50 F would be ideal as well..

Removed the Domes for a look with bright sun coming in the window.

Much better that a few days ago. ;^)

" Bill, unfortunately these little guys won't do a heck of a lot in their first season "

I had no idea. These guys are over 2 weeks old and I've noticed the beginnings of true leaves for over a week. I'm used to seeing 3" growth with deciduous seedlings I've grown, in that amount of time. Are all conifers this slow?

Looking good! Bill, you might obtain a faster growth rate than I had experienced, as I had not given supplemental lighting nor fertilizer in their first year.

I have a batch of 'Yellow Ribbon' seedlings now popping up and interesting to see what percentage will be yellow. For me it's been a very burn resistant variety that always shows good coloring, just requires a shearing now and then to keep it tight.

Thanks FB.

I usually think of something that doesn't grow fast on top, must be growing a lot under the soil. Neither seems to be the case with these. :-)

The media contained minute amounts of nutrients so there was something there, right from the start but the media is basically all coir, so a couple days ago, I watered with a very weak solution of MG, just to insure there were still nutrients available, after almost daily watering those small cells.

I've put them out in 'real sun' 3 or 4 times now, for about an hour each time. They appear to respond well but with daytime highs hitting around 40 F, it hasn't been conducive to rapid growth.

Hope your 'YR' does well. :^)

JFTR:

There is one 'husk' that gave me the slip. :-) I noticed it today when watering. The seedling is still alive but struggling to survive. Definitely a detriment to the development of this one.

try not watering one cell pack ... algae makes me wonder if they arent staying too sodden ...

I been struggling with that. That coir mix looks kinda wet on the top all the time. I tried to wait on watering for a few of days and the ends of cotyledon leaves started to turn brown. I have strong white LED & CF lights on them for 14 hours/day so that may explain the algae growth.

I noticed today, when I watered, the water would stay on top, like the surface would become 'hydrophobic'. It took sometimes 10-15 seconds for the water to penetrate and soak into the surface. Once it started to penetrate, it would drain pretty fast.

So there is good drainage with the coir and the water goes right through into the bottom tray.

I thought it might be kind of a juggling act watering these small cells with coir for soil so just to be safe, I moved half of one of the cell trays into plastic cup pots (36), filled with 511 bark mix, so all my eggs weren't in one basket. But honestly after several weeks, I can't see any difference between the two. They both look pretty much the same in every respect of growth and vitality.

I may move more into cup pots but they are easier to handle in the cell trays. :^)

You can see below, it takes 3 baskets of cups to handle one half of a cell tray so I thought I'd wait as long as I can before transferring more of them.

You were right ken.

The coir must be breaking down, getting less porous and retaining moisture.

I moved the other half of that tray over to pots yesterday. I noticed the first half I potted a few weeks ago, are looking greener/healthier than those (the ones left in the trays were turning a little off color).

Tomorrow, potting up the other 72 cells.

Thuja can grow a lot (from seed) in the first year. I kept this seedling (and many others) under a dome for the first few months and in a sunny window (about 6 hours sun per day.) Then I replanted in a bigger pot with regular soil. Have kept under 8-bulb T5 fluorescent fixtures for about 9 mos. now. (For reference, that's a gallon trade pot).

wow! That's a one year old seedling?

Seems like whenever I put plants in 'regular soil' we get 3 weeks of steady rain, the everything stays too wet and drowns out.

I have six cells that went into homemade pots with a cactus mix/bark based soil combo. Hopefully will drain good enough. We''ll see how they react in comparison to the 511. 'real sun' today. :)

Must you put them outside yet? When I tried to put a bunch out early they did not do as well. Also, experiments indicate that the bigger the pot the better the growth with these guys. For the first (maybe) six months it's slow, but then they really take off. (Just FYI, I use Black Gold All Purpose Potting with all my indoor seedlings from Abies to Viburnum--A to Z that is. And I use their seedling mix to stratify and germinate.)

You must be careful the first few times you put plants out into 'real sun'. Too much ultra violet rays, that unfiltered sun contains, too soon on a plant that hasn't been acclimated, can set them back, possibly permanently with a worse case scenario being sun burnt leaves and stems.

So the first couple/few times I set plants out, it is only for a half hour to an hour. Then I may extend the time depending on cloudiness etc.

I start as early as I can because even though plants don't photosynthesize very well below 50d F, they can still get used to the full spectrum of unfiltered sunlight, if set out for short periods, even if the temps are mid 40's. and that's the minimum temp I use to decide whether they go outside or not.

My choice of pots is economy minded. I wanted a pot that would be large enough so I shouldn't have to re-pot again, until they go in the ground (a year from now). And small enough I wouldn't need a dump truck full of 511 to fill them, AND they would take up minimal space, in the cold frame next winter, if they don't get planted this fall. I maybe pushing it on pot size but you have to account for this is a non funded charity donation to my sons project. :^)

That leads to my other problem of having to move my plant baskets from the light station in the basement to my patio doors up stairs in the kitchen, everyday! Another reason I like to get them acclimated to outside sun. I can put them out and leave them out, once danger of frost is past.

The one thing that mine really didn't like was small pots. Last year I grew a couple hundred of them in the deep Jiffy peat strips and exposed them to different conditions. A common thread was that after about 6 mos. (?) half the plants in the deep Jiffy peat strips were were turning brown. I repotted a bunch and found that their roots had outgrown the containers. On the plus side, even when almost totally brown (some are still in those tiny pots and get replanted whenever I can make more room--their roots are growing in squares around the plastic strip trays) all it takes is planting the Jiffy pot in a bigger pot to bring them back! It's quite something...

The thing that will give outside plants the most trouble is heat. Plants sitting in the sun for a good part of the day can quickly dry out and/or roots can get up to unhealthy temperatures, basically cooking the plants.

I usually try to find a spot that gets morning sun and afternoon shade or dappled shade and try to keep the sun off the pots as much as possible.

If these need to be up-potted, I'm calling my son over to do the work! 8-o

Or if they are that big by end of August, they're going in the ground.

If mine would've looked like yours Norbert, I wouldn't have bothered removing them. :-)

Hey Norbert!

Just had a Tsuga c. seed pop out of the ground and left the seed coat behind in the coir mix. Wish they all did that. :-)

Thats a tough guy, from the looks of it haha. I wish you great success growing them. As always, keep us posted. Its always fun to follow these threads.

Didn't know how such small seedlings would do in a 511 that has pretty coarse bark in it, probably be a better mix for larger tree potting but it's all I had with no way to chop it up any finer.

Left the trays in the sun for 8+ hours the last few days with temps 60-70.

Gave them a weak mix of MG this AM. They seem to like the 'real sun'.

I had sprinkled a few beads of Osmocote just on the surface when I put them in the cups because I didn't mix any into the 511 when I made it and thought a little would be a good idea in case there was a 'nitrogen depletion' problem with my mix.

Thuja beginning to grow 'real leaves'.

They are appearing as shoots or branches on the main stem.

Do I just let them grow for now and prune for 'single leader' later on?

Watering every day now with the hot weather and root growth.