Do your research and you'll be paid for your effort from the savings.

If this is a tract build, you have identified the builder's real source of profit. Whether or not you are getting ripped off is a moot point, the question becomes are there marginal savings available to you?

If your builder forces you to install their items from their showroom, you are unlikely see significant savings from installing cheap items and then paying for a change out to the items you want.

If you can source your own plumbing fixtures, you are still going to pay the builder markup, but it still may be cheaper.

There are costs involved in delivery and warehousing fixtures. If your builder allowed you to handle all such purchases, and have them conplete and on site when needed, would you be able to comply? You have the ability to take delivery of sinks, toilets, tubs, faucets, valves, fittings and have them delivered to the building site by 7am on the morning they are needed? And when the toilet arrives with a broken tank, or you order the wrong shower valve?

Believe me, these are all typical snafus and there is no reason the builder should not be compensated for dealing with them.

You're only 5K over? That’s not bad for the “I want” add ons. You can do that with one single piece of plumbing.

Just remember that similar isn't the same, and knockoffs are not the originals, not the original quality. Stay away from import junk, and check ever single choice against Starcraft Builders faucet report. If the manufacturer isn’t listed, its junk. http://starcraftcustombuilders.com/sources.faucets2.htm

Supplying your own, if allowed, comes at a price for you. You have to know exactly what to order, and how to check it when it arrived to make sure everything is there, and without damage. Then you have to store it offsite and get it to the job site at the right time. That includes the tubs toilets, and sinks. You don’t use the GC’s site labor to unload the tub off of the box truck, and you don’t leave $700 faucets anywhere they can walk. Not unless you pay everyone involved more money. Handling and storage and site delivery is on you to do—and without damage too.

The plumber shows up and installs your stuff, with no installation warranty at all. It’s all on you. If your cheap junk tub filler springs a leak, he will charge you to come out and remove it, and to reinstall the replacement, if you decide to replace it with that similar knockoff, and can get the manufacturer to even respond.

Then there is the water damage that your knockoff provided product caused. Guess what? That isn’t on the plumber. That’s your supplied product that failed. So you’d better have the right kind of insurance for an unoccupied home being built, or it’s out of your pocket.

This is all supposing that you own the land and are hiring the GC. If the GC owns the lot and is selling you the home after it’s built, you might as well forget supplying anything. He does not need the free liability involved in that risk. Not unless he has a change order policy that would charge you way more than you would pay in upgrade fees from his own plumber.

If your builder allows you ... go for it. Don't even look back. Plumbing supply have kickbacks.

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You could also get an estimate from single online place, come to a another supply and ask to give you a local quote, give them the sheet with the existing pricing. They will come done. Walk to your plumbing store show them the price from the local competitor.

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If a plumber give you an account to use, refused to use it, or quietly instead create your own supply account. Make sure to place an order as late as possible. Now understand that for 5k - 10k loss to a plumber [or builder] it will be a mess when they find out.

"Plumbing supply have kickbacks."

In a cost plus contract or any cost plus portion of a fixed price contract, a kickback is illegal. It is called fraud.

I bought all my vanities, toilets, tubs and showers online with my plumber's blessing. I gave him the list, gave him the quote for the items from the online source and he said "go for it." It was same / less then he could do.

I have also been renting a storage unit for 6 months @ $350/mo - so...... probably would have been cheaper to have him buy and store.... (and then I have to deliver them all to the site, too)

It comes down to what your executed contract allows, plain and simple. You made an agreeement with said builder and we do not know what your contract states.

No, by the time you handle everything that needs to be handled, and pay the trip charged you get charged because you forgot something, you pay a lot more buying your own stuff. Also, just try to put together a complicated bathroom order by yourself. You can't, not without checking with the plumber to know quite a few details. That design advice is built into it when he supplies the products. If he has to give you system design advice and has lost the product markup, you just got charged that product markup.

To put things into perspective:

- I've never owned a sink that wasn't builder-basic. I've never had a problem with a sink. Sinks are about as low-tech as things come. Faucets cause trouble, plumbing lines cause trouble, but sinks? Nah, they're simple. Buy your own sinks and save the difference.

- All of the above can be said for basic tubs too.

- On the other hand, faucets, shower parts, etc. are tougher. Some of them are better than others. However, if you find the same serial number online, you're fine. Tread carefully with these "moving parts things".

- Saving on these items will "cost you" in terms of time /arranging delivery /taking responsibility for having things ready on time /possibly needing to return items ... but the money you're looking at saving is pretty significant. I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Last thought: If you're that far over budget, consider whether you really want THAT MUCH plumbing. Consider whether you want to clean all those sinks and faucets every week and whether you want to maintain them /replace them when the plumbing inevitably gives you trouble. I am solidly convinced that the average upscale house has about 50% more plumbing than it actually needs.

much of your question depends on your contract.

@bry911... these are kickbacks to the plumber. Who may kickback to the builder. Unfortunately it is expensive to change shower valves thereafter.

My clients who purchase via a showroom or local supplier usually get better, timelier & more complete service & deliveries. The value of that service is $____________?

What I mean is when they focus their energies on selecting their entire project of finish plumbing fixtures, my showroom rep gets all the things needed.

Online or big box purchasing leaves us all chasing the missing details.

If you're going to purchase your own, make sure:

Sinks & faucets work together. Raised vessels often need special drains. No guarantee all faucets work with vessels. Make sure sinks fit in the cabinets you have. Disposals, disposal switches for islands, disposal trim, button trim, air gaps, soap & water dispensers in kitchens. Make sure disposals have plugs included (or pay the electrician to connect).

Shower & tub "faucets" online category separate the in-wall valve from the trim, so rough in valves often get forgotten.

Tubs need drain assemblies. Not all play together easily.

Shipping costs are real, especially with 200-600lb tubs. Make sure your delivery includes "into the garage" or equal. Street side drop isn't the same.

CA has special restrictions that eliminate many valves (& faucets) from being shipped here.

Read the reviews about every product you plan to purchase. What do you want to install under your slab counters or bury behind shower walls when their warranty expires or excludes labor?

Some I read recently about a stainless sink I wasn't familiar with: (doesn't drain corners well, scratches easily, etc.) But it sure was priced well! Stainless varies significantly due to gauge, finish & soundproofing plus things I don't know.

Read the "poor reviews" to understand what to look for.

So many helpful comments, thank you all! So when comparing what specific product is in our contract to what I wanted in the showroom she was telling me the cost difference in MSRP. Hopefully that's not the true cost to us with the builder "discount". If that's the case I know we are being totally ripped off. Just for example the tub filler I was looking at is $500 cheaper online vs the showroom. Same exact product number.

No where in our contract does it say we have to go through the plumbing supplier yet in an email exchange our builder is now saying that is how it is. My husband is in the construction industry so that won't fly and we will have to work something out. This is not a tract build, it's a true custom home.

I totally see the advantage to using the showroom for ease of coordination and rectifying any defective materials BUT honestly to me that's not worth a ___% markup.

Mrs. Pete I agree completely!

GreenDesigns I think you're right. The GC owns the lot and although we've put a hefty sum of money down, he will be selling to us after it's complete. We'll see how this pans out.

Thanks again!

I was my own GC for a kitchen and bathroom gut remodels on separate houses. I had a plumbing sub for the bath but not the kitchen. Bought all my own stuff, much of it online. I did not find it that hard to manage the details with a little research, and I saved a lot. If you hate details and are bad at micromanaging, don’t do it. If deep diving details is a strength, go for it. I find the virtues of the plumbers warranties exaggerated if you’re buying quality stuff. Eg, Our Moen faucet with sensor died after we did the kitchen and Moen replaced it. We switched it out ourselves....NBD.

I bought our fixtures from a variety of sources, including used stuff from the ReStore. Sure you have to be absolutely sure the stuff is there and right when the plumber or other sub needs it. Seems like a pretty minimal inconvenience for saving thousands of dollars. We were fortunate in having a builder who didn't play games, he built his costs and profit into his fee (he wasn't cheap, but he was good!) and so was indifferent as to where the fixtures came from as long as they were there when he needed them.

5k is not an insane number for fixtures.

A few things to keep in mind when you buy online vs. the plumbing store your builder is doing business with, in most cases his purchases will be done through his plumbers account.

Benefit in that...

• The builder or his plumber is responsible for the fixtures.
• If they come-in damaged, or missing parts they will replace them quickly no questions asked.
• If something goes wrong down the line or during warranty period, they will cover replacement, parts and labor.
• When you buy in plumbing store, yes you will pay more but you get better product vs,online or box store. Online or in the Box store the name of the manufacturer on fixtures the same but internal parts are diffrent in quality.
• Most importantly you don't have to deal with everything I just said and you can sleep at night.

Dis-benefit in buying online or box store...

• Most importantly It becomes your responsibility for everything except installation of fixtures.
• You responsible getting the fixtures to job-site in good condition with all the parts. If something is missing, you have to return and re-order which sets back your schedule.
• If something goes wrong and the plumber needs to make an extra trip back because of something is missing or damaged, and that if you get him back when needed.
• If something goes wrong a month or later and something needs to be changed, the plumber will charge you as a regular rate to exchange the fixtures, only now you be charged to remove them so you can send it back if its under warranty and return to install when replacement arrives.

Now the items you compared, you said similar... what does that mean.

If I buy BMW SUV X5 one being a model xdrive-50i the price is about 75k and you compare similar BMW SUV X7 Model xdrive-50i the price difference is $17k... So you cannot compare similar...

Compare apples to apples like Kirsten mentioned above.

Good luck

The challenge for consumers buying their own plumbing fixtures and storing them for later installation by plumbers is understanding and purchasing "all" the necessary and needed items of equipment, rather than just the faucet, for example. And, thereafter, checking the shipment to ensure all of the ordered and necessary pieces of equipment were shipped and received in good condition.

I agree Virgil, the problem is most consumers have no idea what " the necessary and needed items of equipment needed". Even when everything comes, some things plumbers wouldn't touch or put their name on it even if it was provided by the homeowner.

It's like an old saying when you don't know something... You looking at a beautiful One story house, and after you buy it, it becomes a Second story.

rwiegand I agree, minimal inconvenience for saving thousands. I am very detail oriented and research everything like crazy before pulling the trigger on anything. Especially when it comes to our custom home. He is fine with us buying whatever other fixtures we want, lighting, hardware, front door, etc. So I know his costs are already built in. I'm sure this is just how his plumber does it trying to make money off people like me! I hope we are able to purchase at least some outside the showroom.

GN Builders LLC, We are at least $5k OVER what is already included in our contract. Probably more like $6k. The fixtures listed in our contract total about $10k (not including the valve costs which I didn't calculate but they are in the contract). Guess I need less expensive taste, huh? lol. However I agree to disagree, I am more than competent enough to purchase the correct items online for a full shower or whatever else. But I think you hit the nail on the head when you said some plumbers won't touch what homeowners provide and I'm sure that's the case with ours because our builder is so nice and is letting us provide many of the other finishes. Thanks for your replies.

Yes. Thousands of dollars. Go though your builder and get a quote, then go look on build.com.

Lauren, nothing wrong with having a good taste, it is very common when it comes to women :-)

I remember when I was building my own house, my wife didn't know anything about plumbing, she still don't (but I didn't say that) I took her to the plumbing store I deal with, she went right for Grohe brand, the most expensive display there... and she made her pick. My total plumbing cost including labor was 20k (just 4 Faucets were almost 4k and that not including bidet, Jacuzzi, toilets and shower fixtures) and that was my cost, so looking at the number for fixtures that you selected and I'm sure you have a very good taste and I'm sure the fixtures above Builder grade... 6k for entire house is not a bad price... Again, depends what you picked and how many fixtures and quality, etc.

Good luck and I hope your remodeling project and everything else will go nice and smooth.

6K above your allowance is not—-excessive. That’s just one Kohler Numi. Good quality and stylish plumbing is just expensive. Inferior knockoffs are everywhere.

"The GC owns the lot and although we've put a hefty sum of money down, he will be selling to us after it's complete."

Then you may not have the option to buy your own as technically it is his house.

As @millworkman said...

The owner of the property gets to make that decision. You have a sales contract, not a building contract. So when negotiating that issue, understand your position. You may have leverage, but not the decision.

The seller/builder has already included the showroom's mark up in the allowance given to you for the service they will provide in your initial budget of $10,000. The budget includes the showroom service. That's a decent budget. I have clients who can stay under including rough in valves and clients who have tripled that number in homes valued from $1.1-1.5.

I don't put products into homes I own (spec home) unless I have some control over the product (aside from other issues, if you don't close the sale). Typically I have a showroom handle selections which are billed directly to me with transparency to the future owner. Same with appliances, carpet, light fixtures, and a few other items.

When clients have me build on their property, the position is different, but most still go to the showroom anyway.

A spec house isn’t a custom house. A custom is when you buy the property and have an architect design a house just for the property. This is a spec house. You don’t own anything, and it’s a generic plan.

Buying things out of your own pocket for a house that you don’t own is risky. The builder might cancel the contract and sell to someone else. That happened a lot in prior building boom times with less than scrupulous builders. By the time the house was ready for the mortgage, the builder could get another 100K for it than the current contract. So he took the penalty amount to cancel, and sold it for more.

very helpful and thoughtful comments

we gut remodeled and it was "cost plus" contract..so even though we went to showroom with our builder, we bought only a tub there in the end (which was good because they made a framing mistake and had to purchase another tub because of it..I imagine what trouble we'd be in in we bought this tub not through a brick and mortar store with long term relationhip with our builder..just their restocking fee is 30% I think..was waived for us. ) The showroom was Pirch-it's creme de la creme..I loved being there- but we decided to save some..)))

yes we did save money, and quite a lot of it. But it was very lengthy process..very tiresome..it was like putting together this huge puzzle..and yes sometimes you open the parcel-and they forgot to put there some important part. X doesn't have your finish. Y doesn't have your size. Z has a strange customer service to put it mildly. In short one goes through all the letters of the alphabet..

looking back-I'd rather spend money..and more money..rather than going through it all. In this Pirch they also wine you, dine you..best coffee around too))

of course easy to say now..

then we really tried to keep afloat, paying two mortgages while gut remodeling and adding

we saved a lot on appliances too-lots of legwork and time too, yet still was much easier than plumbing, Plumbing was a huge PITA.

@GN Builders: I believe most of what you have said is 'sales talk', and grossly inaccurate.

I have to say as an engineer - if you want to buy your own fixtures - you need to have a mind for details, and should research how the fixtures are installed. Especially for showers - I would buy all the same brand. Places like EFaucets.com will tell you what goes with what.

This list price / net price kick back scheme is so out of date. It's much more honest to pay for what you're getting. If the plumber wants $90 hr - that's OK. Much better than burying the true hourly cost in the cost of the fixtures.

Name brand fixtures are the same whether they come from a showroom / internet / big box. If the model number is the same - it's the same.

The fixtures are warranted by the manufacturer - not the plumber. As a home owner you should keep all your receipts and also the installation instructions and model numbers. Don't let the plumber throw all that away. This also goes for all your appliances / HVAC / garage door opener / any thing mechanica l / make and model of lighting fixtures. Start folders for every room - keep the installation / operation instructions.

The manufacturer will want a copy of your receipt for in-warranty replacements.

I would not expect a plumber to come back and fix something that has been working properly for a year or more - unless the manufacture's warranty covers labor.

Green Designs, sorry but you are wrong. It is a true custom home. We worked with an architect for 5 months building the floorplan from scratch specifically for our property. Just because the builder owns the lot does not mean it’s a spec home. They are a very well known and reputable builder in my area and I highly doubt they would try to cancel our contract.

Aprilneverends, thank you!! Yes I’m sure I will pay with my time and energy for researching/shopping around. But good to know. I think our first attempt will be to see if we can get the prices in the showroom down a bit more. Having it all taken care of by one person sounds nice.

geoffrey_b, I agree with you. And thank you for the helpful comments! Will definitely be saving everything!!

The design build model on builder owned lots is common, but again, they determine vendors. Its the model that most consumers understand is a "custom home."

The advantage is that you typically know the total price before you complete the design, with the exception of changes from standards.

I bought my own fixtures for the kitchen. No, I didn't save money short term, but I saved money long term as these shouldn't fail for years to come. GC was going to use HD basics.

@Geoffrey

I don't know what sales pitch you talking about because GC or Builders don't sell fixtures. We pick out fixtures that we offer with the house. If a customer wants to upgrade, we send them to the showroom we deal with, have them pick the fixtures they like, and they will pay the difference. Same with the kitchen, tiles, flooring, carpeting, painting, trim packages, etc. i.e if the kitchen allowance is 6k and they pick a kitchen for 8k, they pay 2k difference.

Kick back, I have no idea what you talking about...who you get a kick back from? Plumbing supply don't give you a kick back, they have set prices. A plumber gets paid by check, he has to pay taxes on that and what kick back he can give you from a few fixtures. This kick back thing you talking about makes no sense.

#GN Bilders:

Kick back, I have no idea what you talking about...who you get a kick back from?

Plumbing supply don't give you a kick back, they have set prices.

There are two sets of prices: wholesale - called the dealer net, and list - suggested retail. So the homeowner purchases at or near retail, and the plumber pays net - there's a difference and someone pockets that difference. That's the kick back.

This is why the same fixtures are available on the internet for much less. The internet site has lower costs, and sells the fixtures somewhere between net and list. There's so much margin, that these sites can ship for free if you buy over a certain amount. But you know this cause you deal with wholesalers all the time.

• When you buy in plumbing store, yes you will pay more but you get better product vs,online or box store. Online or in the Box store the name of the manufacturer on fixtures the same but internal parts are diffrent in quality.

This is an outright false hood. Whatever make, the same part number is the same fixture.

If something goes wrong down the line or during warranty period, they will cover replacement, parts and labor

Is it really worth paying $1,000's of dollars more? Besides the manufacturer warranties the parts.

My family has been in the wholesale business for many years.

Geoffrey,

"There are two sets of prices: wholesale - called the dealer net, and list - suggested retail. So the homeowner purchases at or near retail, and the plumber pays net - there's a difference and someone pockets that difference. That's the kick back."

That is not a kick back, that is doing business. How much you think he pockets on a $600 faucet... a plumber will get 20% discount if that and that would all depend on the amount he is buying. So if gets $120 cheaper, now he has to go and pick it up, this is time and money, he will spend at least 2 hrs on that... going to supply house, from there to the job site, if he got a helper with him lets say he gets 15 in hour, thats $30 + gas, etc so what ever is left he made a few bucks.

I don't know what faucet or what tub this poster picked and I don't know what she compared them too, but this comparison numbers sound ridiculous especially online, most of everything you find online (same items) are close in price...

I know for a fact, that some builders or some tract home developments will nail you with a high price for extras because they rather not deal with extras, they want to give you a house with included package and call it the day and if you agree to the price they ask for extras, they make money because it's all about business and making money... not to mention now you go from a spec house to a custom home. This why they have prime lots, this house on this lot you don't pay extra, that lot at the end will cost you 10k extra, and they look the same etc.

When you start upgrading and getting extras, it involves extra time, extra work, more detail,etc so it is very common you will be charged extra.

You ought to know that actual retail margins on plumbing products range between 15-40%, clustering mostly around 25%, if you‘ve been wholesaling “for years” . Just try to operate a real B&M on mostly 15% sales. Customer service and knowledge is not free. It can be very cheap, if you outsource it all overseas with a phone call and have “Betty” read from a manual. Or hire at minimum wage and promise s commission on sales that never comes because the CSU can’t get to the margin required for the commission. Lots of tricky ways abound.

And the wholesaler charges a markup to the retailer too. Don’t you think it’s unethical that the wholesaler won’t tell the retailer how much that faucet cost them so that the retailer can then tell them how much money they think they “should“ be charging them? It’s none of anyone’s business if that faucet that they’re paying $200 wholesale for costs that wholesaler $100, and only costs the manufacturer $20 to make. Just as it’s none of anyone's business if the contractor pays that $200 and charges the customer $250, when the retail selling cost is $300.

Charging a markup is not a kickback. It’s how businesses keep functioning. That’s a product markup for fixed price. Typically trades will share their markup, so the consumer does not pay full price and the contractor still gets a fee for the handling and delivery coordination services. Plus the install labor amount.

On a cost plus, it’s a contract stated percentage. A roofing contractor buys 10K worth of discounted roofing shingles and the the homeowners pays the 20% markup for 12K total for materials. Plus the 10K in install labor. 22K total.

In a fixed price contract, the retail price is 13K, and the contractor pays 10K. The homeowner still pays the contractor 12K plus the 10K labor. They get a discount from retail, and the contractor still charges the handling and coordination fees. The job is still 22K.

The only other way is a time and materials charge, which is a ridiculous and expensive way to build a house. That’s 10K worth of shingles and 15K worth of itemized labor, including at least 2K for selecting, ordering, followup, delivery, inspection, and site staging. Plus time for that type of billing. Because itemizing billing is time that gets paid for too. It’s just folded into the costs of the overhead by others. But if you want the cost of every bucket of screws, and tube of caulk, that’s gonna cost you to account for.

Change orders are are a whole other subject. Contractors hate changes from products that they already know and understand. New means problems. So they charge gor the problems on the front end.

Words have meanings and those meanings sometimes matter quite a bit.

A kickback is an after invoice rebate paid from the vendor to the purchaser. An example of a kickback looks something like this: A paint supplier offers a painter a monthly rebate of $3 per gallon of paint purchased. That rebate will appear after the invoice because the painter will pay in full and be cut a check for the $3 per gallon.

Although a few industries still use kickbacks, e.g. the hold back for new cars, most industries, including contracting/building industries, have largely gone away from it. The reason being is that the word "cost" in contract law has a very specific meaning and that meaning is net of all discounts and rebates.

Because of its prevalence in bid rigging and purchasing frauds, the government has enacted several pieces of legislation resulting in harsh penalties when cost is misrepresented in government contracts and some industries are forbidden by statute from paying kickbacks. Because of the inherent danger in providing a misstated bill to a contractor (who then presents that bill to a government agency) leaving both the vendor and the purchasing agent criminally liable, industries understandably moved away from the practice.

My interpretation of a kick back was, I tell my plumber there is a project about to start you can make a million in profit... give me 50k and I will get you in there or like Bry mentioned above about bid rigging, etc

Expecting a kicks back from my plumber on 2 1/2 baths is a joke.

So the profit is tied to the list price at the 'plumbers account'? This means he will make more money installing expensive faucets, rather than inexpensive faucets. Yet it's the same amount of labor.

Geoffrey, since you an engineer, stick to engineering :-)

On the other hand, you going out to a customer house, you charge them $400-500 and you look at the foundation for 10 min, you look outside for 10 min (not to mention the min you get there you already know whats wrong in most cases) and you go home and you provide them with a letter and repair recommendation.

Why $400-500 and not $100-200? Paper cost a penny and type up a letter will take 10 min.

Why you in a plumbers pocket counting his money? :-)

dear armchair plumbers: high end Plumbing fixtures take more time to install and significantly more time to run down all of the special items it takes to make them work right because there's always something and they aren't standard.

if you want it done as inexpensively as your off-the-shelf stuff from The Big Box store find a really naive plumber or builder (lack of experience) and put them to work.

Many many things have a higher cost of install for higher priced items. The risk to the contractor if he damages a $200 a square stone is much greater than if it's $30 a square. A $200 light fixture vs a 7K chandelier. A $300 HD special tub filler vs a Sherle Wagner Swan tub filler that I don't even know the current pricing for but it's at least 3K.

This means he will make more money installing expensive faucets, rather than inexpensive faucets. Yet it's the same amount of labor.

Why stop at the plumber? I bet the faucet company makes more profit from making expensive faucets than they do from making inexpensive faucets. Should we ask them to charge more for their cheap faucets and less for their expensive faucets because every faucet should make the same profit?

In the end, this is the business model that works for plumbers. Plumbing has a pretty low barrier to entry, so if this wasn't the most efficient way to charge we would expect to see more plumbers offering higher hourly rates and lower fixture prices. We don't because it largely doesn't. Overhead is lower when it is allocated across more direct labor hours. If a plumber can get more work by deflating his hourly rate and inflating his fixture charges then it still results in a lower net average cost than any other billing scheme where he gets less work.

OP: We did a complete tear down and rebuild and purchased every single fixture ourselves. Our builder was pleasant about it and did not charge us his markup on items we purchased directly so long as we made sure to have the item on-site when he needed it. We saved quite a bit and have had zero issues. We also ended up with vastly better products than what the “show room” wanted to sell us at a much lower net price. We did negotiate that arrangement in advance in our contract. I doubt you’ll win a battle if you didn’t put that into your contract.

So the interesting thing about this thread is that the folks in the construction industry who are replying are basically saying either (1) that’s just how it works or (2) those who are skeptical of the current pricing practices just don’t understand and should not question current pricing practices. That’s just silly.

In my industry (law), we face constant pressure to come up with new fee arrangements to bring more value to the client. That’s just part of the job. And the advent of technology and decentralization of information has accelerated that process.

It is perfectly reasonable to ask why a plumber should make more to install a $1000 faucet as opposed to a $100 faucet if those faucets are of fundamentally the same design. Maybe there are extenuating circumstance, such as greater complexity, that would justify an upcharge—but probably not an order of magnitude‘s worth of complexity. The arguments supporting mindless cost-plus models that are disconnected from actual analysis of the increased value to the client and usually degenerate into hand-waving and “trust me, if you’d seen the things I have, you’d know I’m right...”. That’s not about an emphasis on bringing value—that’s an emphasis on fear of the unknown.

By all means, protect your margins and your modes of doing business. But don’t be surprised if folks start demanding a greater say in their choices than what the “show room” will offer them. Informed consumers can—and should—demand that the folks to whom they are paying their dollars explain how they have brought value for the marginal dollars spent.

Lauren, there could be a million scenarios to your situation and most will not do you any good.

It all comes down to the person you dealing with and the practices how they run their business.

You buying a home from a builder, you have a contract which probably includes listed items that come with the house. Any deviation from these items the builder can charge you anything he wants...and nobody can do anything about it... It's pretty much comes down to "take it or leave it".

Most custom home builders that I know don't do that, it is all about the person you're dealing with and their reputation and in your case if they try to jack-up the price that much, this is not a very good practice.

I will give you one example of a similar situation.

A few months ago I was doing 3 basement designs and layouts for homeowners who purchased new homes in the same development of 13 homes...most homes still under construction, they the 1st-3 to move in.

All 3 homeowners were telling me the same thing that its impossible to get anything from their builder.

Anything they want to upgrade is quadrupled in price, i.e you want oak stairs $6k extra, you want crown molding 3k per room, etc

Its beautiful close to 1m homes, and when I came to one of them the 2nd time, they had a contractor there building coffered ceilings, doing crown, trimming out a few openings, etc. Back to drop cloths, back to dust, back to painting, when everything could have been done long ago before the closing and the builder reputation wouldn't be diminished.

Most of the homeowners who purchased this homes know each other, 8 of them out of 13 homes are friends and work in the same field, and the first 3 who moved in warned everyone else that builder is impossible to deal with and he won't budge on anything.

That said, there is always a mark up on upgrades because it involves extra work and you endure extra expenses, but the mark-up is not to bankroll a homeowner, its reasonable and its priced in the way to be worth while for the homeowner and so they keep on smiling while they job moves along.

We not living in the stone ages, today you give a price for something within a minute you can pull up the phone and look up the price online, and everyone knows that and every industry is trying to stay compatible with pricing or nobody would be buying anything from them... and I'm sure nobody wants to look like an idiot for giving unreasonable price.

Now put all that all mambo jumbo aside, I wish you best of luck with your new home and I hope everything will go smooth and you end up with a well built home!

@Loki7154: We also ended up with vastly better products than what the “show room” wanted to sell us at a much lower net price. We did negotiate that arrangement in advance in our contract. I doubt you’ll win a battle if you didn’t put that into your contract.

We've owned several homes, that I have completely remodeled. I have found the 'challenging' fixtures are the mixing valves in the shower. I never saw a Grohe thermostatic mixing valve - you need to read and study the instructions. I suppose this goes against a lot of plumbers that just want to rip into the box and not be bothered with reading.

Years ago we went to a 'showroom' - we were amazed that they didn't have many of the fixtures in stock or on display. But - they would order them for us. Hell, I can order my own, and get them shipped for free, and no sales tax.

My latest bath remodel, I purchased a Toto toilet / Kohler Tub / Floating Vanity / Sink / plumbing fixtures / electrical switches / towel bars / floor heating system - all on line.

In my industry (law), we face constant pressure to come up with new fee arrangements to bring more value to the client.

Far too many of the people I went to law school with have ridiculous fee arrangements based on recovery amounts rather than work performed.

You are ignoring the existence of something which is far more unethical and just as prevalent in law. Where its existence is, in and of itself, an abandonment of our fiduciary obligation.

Had the GC and plumber buy/install everything in my gut reno. I couldn't afford to pay me my hourly rate to research, track, and control all the items. My time was worth more than the "overage".

@bry911: yeah, I don’t like those arrangements, either. Doesn’t make either practice right.

Side note: it’s worth noting that at least those encourage an alignment of interest on some level: bigger recovery means bigger paycheck for client and lawyer. The cost-plus model means a more expensive item costs the client EVEN MORE. That is a complete misalignment of interests.

Thanks for all the interesting insight into this topic!

@GN builders, Thank you! My builder has informed me that the reason they go through the showroom is to streamline the process and make sure all materials are correct and on site the day the trade is there. Totally understand that. Hoping we can negotiate a bit with the showroom prices because they are charging MSRP (unsure of our builder's discount with them, waiting for the total quote, the builder's discount could possibly be significant enough for this to be an unnecessary original question). For instance the sink we are going with has an MSRP of $1,538. Online I can get it for $999. And we need 2 of them! Yikes! Thanks for the thoughtful replies.