joealvord

Would you name this rose after William?

Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
July 10, 2019
last modified: July 10, 2019

It is the second year in the ground for my William R. Smith from ARE. I was looking at him today and wondered if he is a William. Others seem to report a paler rose. This rose is large, healthy, vigorous plant.

Comments (33)

  • roseseek

    Maybe. It's a lot pinker than it gets here, but how hot is it where you are right now? Mine isn't in bloom (it's been downright chilly!) so I can't compare pink levels and temps, but if you've been hot there while this was maturing, that could account for it.

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked roseseek
  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR

    Yes, Kim, it has been 90 F typically lately. It did seem paler in cooler weather. The HMF photos seem to capture his paler tones. Some of my Teas do this, and others are consistently their one color like Etoile de Lyon.


    This one always looks the same.

  • Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal

    Wow he is beautiful with 3 colors on one bush! Very unusual looking. How do the flowers hold up in the heat? Does the plant seem to really like 90 or just tolerate it? I am always on the lookout for roses that do well in heat. I have two teas, Monsier Tillier and Mrs. Dudley Cross; 2 Austins, Golden Celebration and Darcey Bussell; and a HT Climber Compassion (RVR mistake) that are just budding another flush and we will get almost 100 for the next 5 days. So I will be able to find out how they do in heat.

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal
  • roseseek

    Thanks, Sheila. Etoile de Lyon isn't phototropic, it doesn't morph like Mutabilis, Double Delight, etc. but MANY others considered "Teas" do and William is definitely one. I would think your nineties (OUCH! I'm SORRY! Our "heat wave" this week will take us all the way to 80! Then drop us back to the high sixties to low seventies) could easily make him that pink. It WOULD me!

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked roseseek
  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

    My WRS looks exactly like yours, Sheila, but I could swear that this one doesn't look like the one I had some years ago which did not change color as readily and which I thought was actually more beautiful. Mine is also from the ARE so it would make sense that they look similar. My previous one was from Vintage Gardens (photo below). Your Etoile de Lyon, by the way, is gorgeous.

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR

    I feel better if yours looks the same, Ingrid. Truth be told, some of these color changes are outrageous. I am not sure what to think sometimes. Your Vintage one is gorgeous. Stephanie, William is so strong and healthy in the heat. He pumps out so many blooms that he always looks fresh. Some blooms are fading, but so many new ones overwhelm the old.I would call him an absurdly healthy rose. I probably would not have named him William, looking like a luscious confection like he does. Thank you too, Kim.

  • Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal

    If he does well in heat, then William is what I need! I actually like the name William because it is so normal and this rose is so “outrageous“ as you put it. But then I have always found juxtapositions delightful. How big across are the blooms and do they change much in size in the heat? Is he super or moderately thorny?

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal
  • jacqueline9CA

    Sheila - I looked on HMF, and was astonished that all but one of the photos (including the old hand colored ones) show a very very pale rose, like the picture above of the one Ingrid had years ago, and not the one which turns into very dark bright pink blooms as it ages . Kim, it seems as if you have the same William that Sheila does, and thank you for the term "phototropic" - I knew there had to be a word for those roses with at least three different colors on the bush at one time! However, at least the info on HMF about 'William R. Smith' does not seem to jibe with that sort of rose. Confusing, as usual.

    Jackie

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked jacqueline9CA
  • roseseek

    You're welcome, Jackie. I've been looking for the lists from Bluegirl about where each of my Teas originated, and, of course, I can't find them. I'm pretty sure mine is from ARE, also. I'll have to email her to see if she's come up for air long enough to know where her files are. She's moved and is settling her father's estate.

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked roseseek
  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR

    Stephanie, William does have large to huge blooms (3-4 inches) and is prickly. He is akin to Maman Cochet that way but less gawky and rangy. I think he has better foliage too. Heat does not seem to affect bloom size. My worst that way is Jesse Hildreth who shrinks his blooms in the heat and they turn brown. No matter because his blooms are so gorgeous and huge the rest of the year. This William is a good specimen rose I would think, looking so healthy and having lovely burgundy new foliage.

    Jackie, I agree the HMF photos were not really showing this side of William. I looked up Marie van Houtte and the photos in my roses' mood looked more like her. That bloom darkening in heat is dramatic in my Madame Berkeley and Mme Antoine Mari here too. The MAM also pancakes flat and bloom petal count drops, as does my Adam, in the heat. I can see where IDing these roses is very difficult. My Madame Berkeley does seem to have more china like foliage which is not as attractive and healthy as the Tea foliage here.

  • titian1 10b Sydney

    Hi Sheila, I've just removed my WRS (diseased and deceased!). He was a very rangy plant for me: two canes that were around 12' long. The blooms were pale, even in heat (our summers are usually in the 80's, occasionally hitting the 90's), unlike Marie van Houtte, which goes very pink in warm weather. The blooms of WRS were much larger than MvH, and the petals a lot more substantial.

    WRS



    MvH


    Whatever rose you have, it is lovely.

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked titian1 10b Sydney
  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR

    Trish, I really wonder after reading your comments about mine being William. I better consult my Tea ladies book. It is really great to hear your experience. I've never seen Marie van Houtte. Or maybe I have.

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

    Trish, a larger and paler rose with petals of more substance describes my original WRS very well. As I remember the bush was taller, with more stout canes than my present one, and the leaves were also different, larger and thicker. The present one has thinner and prettier leaves, like Sheila's specimen. It does seem that there are two roses bearing that name, and I tend to think (although I may be wrong) that my present one, and Sheila's, is not the correct one.

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
  • titian1 10b Sydney

    Ingrid, yes, the canes on WRS were definitely stouter, and the leaves larger and thicker. Also, (though you're unlikely in your dry climate, Ingrid, to see this), the blooms ball horribly in wet weather. Patricia Routley has posted a photo on HMF that shows this. My MvH has made a large (8' high by 15' wide) arching bush, that before the dreaded canker, was pretty well clothed to the ground.

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked titian1 10b Sydney
  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR

    I looked at the offerings at ARE and the photos of William, Marie van Houtte and Mrs. Dudley Cross all look about the same. I also have Mrs. Dudley from ARE and it is doing very well and smaller than "William". I thought the Tea Ladies book described my rose "William" with more accuracy under Marie van Houtte.

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

    In regard to roses that are phototropic, I wonder if the increased radiation from the sun due to global warming isn't causing roses to "turn" in color where even ten years ago that trait was not so noticeable. I had Mrs. Dudley Cross about ten years ago and can remember it staying a creamy white for most of the year except at the very height of summer. I see roses wilting now that in those past years did not, and I don't think it's the roses that have changed. Trish, you're right, my old WRS never balled, but I eventually lost it because it did not have drip watering and in its very sunny spot it succumbed to the heat. I also wonder whether your roses' canker problem may not also have been exacerbated due to the more extreme climate now.

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR

    Now I'm reversing this. My "William" is not overly fragrant (MvH is very fragrant per Tea book) and has stout canes rather than twiggy growth. That fits better with the real William per the Tea Ladies book. Maybe I do have the real William.

  • Perma n’ Posies/9A FL

    I did not get photos, because I have been disbudding for the most part on my young WRS, but in the fall the partially open blooms were dark pink like in your photos, and medium pink blooms open that faded to creamy pink. Now that it’s hot, the buds are creamy pink. I think your WRS looks just like mine did last fall, just much more mature. :-)

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked Perma n’ Posies/9A FL
  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR

    Where did you get your William, Perma? Comparing the stamen color lemon versus yellow or new growth brownish red or purplish red is difficult when I only have the one plant. If I had a Marie van Houtte from ARE too, I could compare but they look so much alike in photos I didn't think I needed them all. Whatever, this is the healthiest plant on the planet.

  • Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)

    Sheila, I was thinking the same thing and that's why I only got Marie van Houtte and not Williams from ARE.
    jin

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)
  • Perma n’ Posies/9A FL

    Mine is from A Reverence for Roses. It looks like some new buds showing up, so I’ll snap some pics. :-)

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked Perma n’ Posies/9A FL
  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR

    My plant smelled very fragrant today. Go figure, since I just said it wasn't above.

  • Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal

    Ooooh! Classic tea fragrance? Of the three mentioned here as being similar, I have Mrs Dudley Cross since thornless and I have her under a “panel” of passion vine that will need to be trimmed back one a year, or more often. I am hoping the fritillary butterflies come back. She has a nice light tea fragrance. I cut a flower the other day that lasted two days, but it has been hot so I wonder if they last longer when it has been cool out. I am going to start recording length when I cut. How long do William’s flowers last cut?

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal
  • Perma n’ Posies/9A FL

    Well, my WRS is struggling with the heat (over 100 heat index today) so blowing faster than I thought. But here’s some photos:






    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked Perma n’ Posies/9A FL
  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR

    Thank you, Perma. Our pale photos look alike. The intense coloring mine got I would have thought would express itself there too with this temps. Maybe humidity is another variable.


  • shebabee

    My WRS came from A Reverence for Roses a few years ago. My WRS is creamy white with a lemon undertone and sometimes a very very faint pink blush (more or less as in Titian's photo above). I've never seen anything pinker than that -- you would never call mine a pink rose. I am in a cool, damp, chilly climate, though, and it has probably never been blooming when temps were above 70F. I'll post a photo below. It is a sturdy plant. The new growth is very striking, very red in color. Sadly, I don't get much fragrance from his blooms, but again, I think that may have to do with my chilly location.

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked shebabee
  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked shebabee
  • Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)

    Shebabee, it's looks beautiful. It's very much like my Marie Van Houtte but mine has a little pink around the rose.
    It turn more pink in winter but Perma yours is beautiful. Seems your turn more pink in heat :)
    Shiela now I feel like getting Williams just Bec it had fragrance and it has crazy colour combos.
    I can imagine Marie and Williams next to each other playing colour games. Heat : Marie goes white and William more pink as ever. And I bet when it comes winter the both goes opposite ( I am guessing ) or Williams turn Red. ( guessing again )

    Quick question, what colour does William turn during Winter ?

    jin

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)
  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR

    Jin, I think William is whiter in the winter. These color changes are amazing.

  • Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)

    Shiela get Marie Van Houtte , they do look alike but they are like ying and yang . Perfect couple match :)
    Wow !! It feels good to be a matchmaker !! lol
    I am putting Williams on my Christmas list.
    Thanks !!
    jin

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)
  • Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal

    Since the comparison was made that WRS, MvH and Mrs Dudley Cross are all similar teas from Antique Rose Emporium, here is my MDC bloom today. The other day she was all creamy white, no hint of pink. And now this morning she is positively pink, but not nearly as dark as WRS. I detect no fragrance. Sometimes a cut bloom has light tea scent. Oh and she has zero thorns; just a few prickles on the backs of leaves.

    Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR thanked Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal
  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR

    Just beautiful, Stephanie. My MDC has never had the darkest color I have seen on WRS. My MDC is resting right now so I can't comment on fragrance. That seems to vary day to day too..

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