rekha_anandkumar

Cécile Brunner, improve with age?

I have one that is the shrub form, and I've had it for about 2 years. I am not quite likeing it so far, black spots a lot, shuts down in summer and no fragrance. The buds and half open form are nice, but I dont really care for how they look when fully open. Color faces very fast to a dirty white.
Am I being silly in evaluating it so soon? Does rebloom and fragrance improve with age? I have her in full sun and ample water.
I have very little space and now am wondering if I should just replace..maybe give another year and see. I never do this and eventually I am convinced I have to as I have a tiny yard.
Thanks for your input.

Comments (20)

  • Rekha A 9a Houston area
    Original Author
    11 months ago

    Thank you for your response and pictures. I did look on hmf, but the pictures there look so much better which is why I was wondering if age makes a difference. My blooms are an inch across if that, and open to a dingy color, again nothing like the pictures on hmf. Plenty of water through summer, but it does get super hot. There are some that shut down in summer and some keep bloming.blooming in my yard.


    Will wait, I have never removed any plant so far, iinincinclincluincludincludiincludinincluding a few climbers that have not bloomed in many years, so will be easy to just wait and see.

  • monarda_gw
    11 months ago

    What a beautiful specimen of Cecile Brunner!


  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    11 months ago

    I have moved here 5 years ago. I am finding Jackie is right that the roses can really improve with time. I know I love a more mature looking plant and the new plants can be awkward until they really settle in. Over time they often get better, or fade away and we can remove them.

    Rekha A 9a Houston area thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
  • jacqueline9CA
    11 months ago

    Rekha - Re your climbers which "have not bloomed in many years" - are they young roses, or ones which have been there for a long time? If young, many climbing roses take their sweet time to start blooming - they seem to wait until they have achieved the height they deem proper. I had a Belle Portugaise (which I raised from a rooted cutting of an old one) which did not bloom for 5 years. After it finally got 12 feet high, it burst into bloom and has bloomed heavily every year since.


    if they are older plants, perhaps they would profit from some feeding - there are special rose food products which are formulated to improve blooming.


    Jackie

    Rekha A 9a Houston area thanked jacqueline9CA
  • Rekha A 9a Houston area
    Original Author
    11 months ago

    Jackie, My climbers are 3 to 4 years, I plan on giving them a few more years, maybe 2 to 3 .more. maybe more hearing about yours!


    DH keeps looking at them and giving them the evil eye!


    I have never been good at fertilizing, but this year I tried to remember and do better. Will continue and see what happens. I must sound so terribly impatient!

  • jerijen
    11 months ago

    Rekha -- if those climbers are 3-4 years old, there may be some other problem. I think you should be getting SOME bloom, by now.

    What roses are they?

  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    11 months ago

    Are you dead-heading 'Mlle Cecile Brunner'? If so, where do you make the cut? I learned with my 'Perle d'Or' that you DON'T want to cut down to the next set of leaves on candelabra canes. Despite how bare they may look, there are buds in there, and new shoots will sprout rather far above the highest set of leaves, which is where "the rules" (meant for HTs and Floribundas) say to cut when dead-heading. Instead, just use your thumb and forefinger to snap faded blooms just below the receptacle -- i.e., right below where the hip would form. Especially on young plants, cutting those candelabra canes back to where "the rules" say to cut takes a lot off, and means the rose has to store up enough energy to try again. This could be holding your rose back.


    :-)


    ~Christopher

  • jerijen
    11 months ago

    Christopher makes an excellent point.

    I might also say -- If 'Mlle. Cecile Brunner' isn't quite your cuppa tea, you might find 'Perle d'Or' more to your liking. I do!

    See images at: https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.4755&tab=36

    Here's a fairly old plant of 'Perle d'Or,' in a Northern California cemetery, so you see that it can make quite a statement:

    And in the same general family of roses, I really love 'Lady Ann Kidwell' with her stronger coloring. (I do NOT know how she would perform in more-humid Houston, but you might run it by the Antique Rose Emporium folks.

    Here's 'Lady Ann Kidwell' in the foreground, with 'Fourth of July' in the background:


    But I am still curious about your fairly mature, non-blooming climbers.

  • Rekha A 9a Houston area
    Original Author
    11 months ago

    Jeri, I looked up my order emails to make sure I'm not mis stating anything in the general area, I planted Jude the obscure, Abraham darby, eglantyne, don Juan and pink don Juan. Jude and red don Juan bloombloomed on and off from the beginning. Abraham darby and eglantyne never bloomed. Since these were small bands I got from Chamblees in 2015, potted up and put in ground 2016, I thought maybe a grafted rose will do better. I picked an eglantyne or so I thought from whole foods in 2017. It bloomed this year, but dark purple blooms.


    Christopher, I dont deadhead CCB any different from others, so may be contributing to the problem of rebloom. I will pay attention to it, thanks for bringing that up.


    Jeri, the pics of Perle d or and Lady Ann are stunning. If I ever decide to remove CB, Perle d Or looks great. But I'm getting ahead of myself, will wait and see.


    I thi k another reason for the post is I detect zero fragrance and I was expecting some, even if mild.



  • jerijen
    11 months ago

    Well, fragrance is so individual.
    When we were still exhibiting, I entered a lovely 'Golden Celebration' in the "Most-Fragrant" class . . .
    The first judge to look at it (I was clerking!) said:
    "This has no fragrance at all!"
    The other two judges followed suit!!! I was appalled!

    When they walked away, I went back and smelled it again .... yup -- rich, fruity fragrance.

    So -- I guess one man's ceiling really IS another man's floor.

    OH -- 'Eglantyne' was a drapey bush here. Didn't climb. 'Abraham Darby' bloomed en masse (until a gopher got its roots). So ... That "no bloom" seems weird to me.


    Rekha A 9a Houston area thanked jerijen
  • Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)
    11 months ago
    last modified: 11 months ago

    Rekha, I absolutely love my Perle D Or . I followed Chris advise and it started to bloom but it is still short. My CB is huge and always in bloom. It just went through a flush not long ago but i see many buds. It display beautifully. It improves with age. Just hold on to it. Give it more time. Follow Chris 's advise closely. The both have candlebras just dont cut it just the deadbuds. Chris, thank you! Now, my rose is blooming and growing.

    I just took a pic of Perle D Or late at night since i am playing ball with him.



    Rekha A 9a Houston area thanked Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)
  • Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)
    11 months ago

    Opps, i forget to add that my CB is a bush.


    Rekha A 9a Houston area thanked Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)
  • Rosylady (PNW zone 8)
    11 months ago

    I am still learning with my roses/climbers, but I have noticed that fragrance can really be enhanced by the right kind of fertilizers...particularly manure...and especially horse manure!


    Also, some roses really need a TON of water...especially the Austins..and especially the older Austins.


    Once they mature and develop good root systems, they don't need as much fertilizer/water to perform their best...but it really seems to help in the beginning. That's what I've noticed anyway!

    Rekha A 9a Houston area thanked Rosylady (PNW zone 8)
  • Paul Barden
    11 months ago

    There is 'Cecile Brunner', and then there is 'Cecile Brunner', and yet more 'Cecile Brunner's. Climbers and shrubs, both bushy and wiry. We will never know which plants are "authentic" and which are imposters.

    If you are growing the "Bush Cecile Brunner" that produces large, sprawly panicles of bloom that resemble a bunch of broken coat-hangers when the blooms finish, then you have the plant that has the worst architecture of the lot. I've never seen a plant of it that I considered "attractive". I always found the blooms of that plant to be smaller than any of the other variants, and poorly shaped.

    I second Jeri's recommendation for 'Perle d'Or'. That's a much more attractive shrub and it ought to perform very well in yoru climate. 'Marie Pavie' is also a superior shrub you may want to consider. It has a most pleasant, intense fragrance that you can detect from 20 feet away at times.

    Rekha A 9a Houston area thanked Paul Barden
  • Rekha A 9a Houston area
    Original Author
    11 months ago

    Paul, what I have certainly fits your description. TThThe blooms are set on a cane sso far from the rest of the bush,Bush, it looks awkward.
    And the blooms are tiny, less than an inch diameter. Dont know if I just got a dud. Will reevaluate in time and if it still makes me unhappy, I will replace it.



  • Paul Barden
    11 months ago

    Rekha, that sounds like the "broken coat-hangers" version, yes. I'd choose something else if I were you. It will never make an attractive plant, believe me.

    Rekha A 9a Houston area thanked Paul Barden
  • Rekha A 9a Houston area
    Original Author
    11 months ago

    Thanks Paul, that certainly makes it easier for me. I have never removed a healthy plant, but am severely limited in space. Marie Pavie is a great option. Thanks a lot for your input!

  • Paul Barden
    11 months ago
    last modified: 11 months ago

    @Rekha.

    You're welcome. I think you'll like 'Marie Pavie'. Of all the "Cecile-like" Polyanthas, its one of the nicest for many reasons. In fact, in my experience its an almost flawless shrub. It will build up to make a very tidy rounded plant that requires no care other than a bit of water now and then.


    The photos provided to HMF by Belle Epoque nursery are excellent examples of 'Marie Pavie':

    Marie Pavie

    Rekha A 9a Houston area thanked Paul Barden
  • starmade
    last month

    I know I'm late to chime in, but since I am in Houston though to put in my 2 c. One inch blooms is normal, both for CB and Perle d'Or. They are polyanthas, the chief virtue of which is supposed to be masses of small flowers. I've had mine for about ten years in the same locations so both should be mature by now.. Both are disappointing. CB is in too much shade, so I blame myself for the not much bloom but she is too big to move, a huge tall bush over my head. Perle d'Or is in sun but also does not bloom as much as I would like besides which the foliage tends to be chlorotic and the plant seems less vigorous than CB. Strong enough that I let them keep their spaces but wonder if it its time to sp and replace with something I like better.