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Help with old garden roses

6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago

Hi, I bought a house a year ago and the previous owners, big lovers of old roses, have planted a small bed with a Constance Spry, A Shropshire Lad and not one, but two Honorine de Brabant. All of these grow quite tall and of course compete for the meter square space so I was thinking of building a structure to tie them on. So far so good but my issue is the small number of blooms on all of them. Perhaps anyone could give me some tips on how to increase that bloom count.

1. HdB looks interesting, smells very nice but I got at most 5 concomitant flowers on both bushes all last summer. Yes they bloomed all summer but still, a few sticks with fast fading flowers on top are not exactly pretty. So I was thinking of pegging them. Did anyone here try it?

2. Due to me not knowing what it was, poor Constance Spry was pruned 15-20 cm from the ground like my mom, grandma, great grandma etc always did with roses before winter. Afterwards, during the cleanup, I found the tag and google showed me that not all roses are born equal. Oops. So no flowers this year and it gets to be trained on a nearby fence next to a dark red clematis. Any tips for the new canes? Is this one worth keeping in the garden? I get the historical value but I am more a fan of ADR/label rouge roses and lots of perfumed flowers all summer long.

3. The A Shropshire Lad is a fantastic survivor, I made lots of mistakes with it -> radical pruning, broken canes, no fertiliser or any type of treatment but still it was heavy with small blooms on the tips of spindly canes too thin to hold them up. It’s very prone to blackspot as luck will have it but I’d like to keep it if I can find a non toxic solution. A sucker appeared at some distance and I was curious what a sucker blooms like (we never graft roses in my country of origin, or buy them as a matter of fact, or spray them or do anything except butchering them in the fall). It blooms just like the main rose :) so I guess despite the nice lady from David Austin saying otherwise, it developed its own roots.

4. In addition I have a Bobby James jaw dropping gorgeous for 2 weeks when in bloom but full of mildew otherwise and a nightmare to prune. I will have to remove it and am looking for a replacement resistant to diseases that blooms repeatedly, preferably perfumed. A wow factor for the terrace. I cannot use chemical treatments since my kids eat the wild strawberries growing under it all year long and the sodium bicarbonate solution is great but not feasible to apply it every other week on three tons of unreachable foliage.

As prize for reading this far, I’ll tell you about the old rose that nobody knows who planted it and what it is. I found it >6m tall, the 7 canes were actually like tree bark, spread sporadically over 3m large and blooms were perfumed, lemon yellow with orange on the outside petals but too far to be enjoyed. So the previous owners decided to add on the same wall a trumpet vine and two wisterias. Yes, two. All competing for half of meter width between the wall and stair banister. I, true to form, hacked the rose to the ground almost, rerouted the wisterias and am planning to get rid of the trumpet vine this winter too. Nice thing but sprouted all over my and my neighbours lawns. So the rose put up this year dozens of new fresh canes that grew around 3m tall and are waiting to be trained on wires. Hope I’m not making yet another beginner mistake. So a happy new beginning for the old friend.

I hope I can find some answers here :) Thank you, Oana.

Comments (21)

  • 6 years ago

    Hi Oana -- I'm probably not going to be much help with your specific roses, because I've never grown those varieties. In fact, none of them would be at their best in my Coastal Southern California garden.

    So, in order to make sure you get the RIGHT help, you need to tell us where you are located ---- because roses are rather like Real Estate: "Location, Location, Location."

    The best treatment for a rose will vary with your specific climate and conditions. So, you most need help from people whose conditions are at least somewhat like your own.

    Best of luck! I hope these roses will inspire you to want others!

    Oana Belgium, 8b thanked jerijen
  • 6 years ago

    Oana, WOW! What an amazing collection of roses that you inherited. I don’t grow any of them but also wanted to know where you live. Like Jeri says, location is everything.

    Oana Belgium, 8b thanked Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal
  • 6 years ago

    I live in Belgium, so the climat is pretty close to what they have at their origins, in UK. The zone is similar to US 8b although I see there are some differences too. It rains a lot, therefore it’s very humid and there is not a lot of light because it’s very cloudy all year around. Temperatures are not extreme, in the summer we normally get below 30 C and in winter above -10 C with no snow blanket. Which means roses don’t really go dormant, more like a short nap in January-February but on the bright side they don’t need to be watered either.


    I come from continental weather with knee deep snow and scorching dry summers so my gardening knowledge is below zero. Struggling hard to adapt and missing the sun (imagine a summer with almost no sun), the flowers and real taste of tomatoes. Which is balanced by never having dust on my shoes, chapped lips, split nails or sun wrinkles :D

  • 6 years ago

    I wish you had more sun too, Oana. Organic fertilizer twice per year could be helpful and glad you have water. Lack of sun can be the factor with less blooms.

    Oana Belgium, 8b thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
  • 6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Thanks. Would pegging help? I don't think it can hurt. Also for the blackspots I hear planting tomatoes in the rose bed can help. I have some bush types I could plant next year instead of delphiniums.

  • 6 years ago

    Pegging could help. It is a lot of work to do. I won't spray anything and put up with BS on occasion.

    Oana Belgium, 8b thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
  • 6 years ago

    I wonder if the Hybrid Musk class of roses would do really well for you? They are mostly shade tolerant as a class so they might bloom more in your cloudy summers. Plus with your rain you probably have lower pH soil and they really like that.

    Oana Belgium, 8b thanked Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal
  • 6 years ago

    Welcome to the Gardenweb!!! I hope you'll continue to post once things get figured out. I spent many formative years in Belgium so I'm very familiar with the climate even in these days of global warming. However, Belgium is a fantastic place for growing roses and they're widely grown. I would think the Austins would do fantastic, but even England gets more sun. Perhaps a picture of the unknown rose? You could try a baking soda type Cornell mix for the BS when it appears and a dilute skim milk can help with powdery mildew, but for a once bloomer I'm thinking why bother. You have a long growing season so you might as well have some repeat bloomers.

    Stephainie mentions a WONDERFUL solution with the Hybrid Musks. Belgium has one of the foremost breeders of modern HMs with Louis Lens so if you have time a visit to his nursery at Oudenburg near Brugges would make a wonderful and informative day trip. Maybe you could call for suggestions or visit of the large rose gardens to see what does well. Of course there are always the Pemberton and Bentall Hybrid Musks. Take a look at Felicia, Ghislaine de Feligonde, Belinda and Bubble Bath. Pink Pet is also great in a humid climate and I know the Aspirin Rose is very healthy there; it's one I'd love to grow stateside. : ((

    https://www.lens-roses.be/en_US/

    https://www.lens-roses.be/en_US/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_garden#Belgium

    Hex castle is particularly beautiful. Your adopted country helped inspire my love of roses; I hope this helps do the same for you! : ))


    Oana Belgium, 8b thanked Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
  • 6 years ago

    I garden in completely different conditions down here in Italy, but second the idea of Hybrid Musks, and suggest you look into Hybrid Multifloras in general: they seem to popular in your part of Europe, and, terrible maladapted to my dense clay and summer drought, they apparently do well in your conditions. I don't know how disease-proof they'd be in your conditions. It sounds as though you may have to remove some plants to give the remaining ones room to grow. Also, would you be open to the possibility of once-flowering roses, and other plants for seasonal change in bloom? I have a lot of once-blooming roses and adore them, but it's also true that I have a lot of room for growing a variety of things. Good luck!

    P.S. 'Constance Spry' is magnificent and, if it does well in your conditions, I'd recommend keeping it. I gave it once years ago as a housewarming gift to a friend, who asked me in puzzlement a few years further on why it didn't flower. Turned out she was pruning it hard and way too late, so cutting out the coming flowering growth.

    P.S. Do you have any pictures of your mystery rose? It sounds really interesting!

    Oana Belgium, 8b thanked Melissa Northern Italy zone 8
  • 6 years ago

    I just researced European sunshine per year, and it seems that Belgium, the UK and Denmark (where I live) get about the same amount of sunshine. Which means that the small flowers are probably due to too little fertilizer. You could also try to move one or two of the roses to allow them more space.

    I second the suggestion of Aspirin and Ghislaine de Feligonde, both very good doers here.

    Lastly, a photo of my aunt's stunning Honorine de Brabrant in Copenhagen.




    Oana Belgium, 8b thanked MetteBee_Copenhagen8b
  • 6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Thank you all for the replies. I'm very excited about visiting the rose creator Vaporvac is mentioning. Next summer when the roses are in bloom so I can see how they look and smell them myself. I would need to decide either to replace some or change the garden layout.

    My neighbour has a Hybrid Musc, very tall and healthy and it smells heavenly on my terrace. They also grow throughout the city in parcs ans alleys.

    For the HdB, pegging or growing around a cone, why not both since I have two small bushes. I could test and see what works best.

    For the blackspot I thought of planting tomatoes throughout the rose beds; I hear they are perfect companions.

    About the mystery rose, this is where it grows, on the right wall competing with a wisteria and a trumpet Vine. Doesn't stand a chance, it's a wonder it made 5 blooms all year. I don't have a pic of itself since I never thought I needed one but in the wisteria pic you can see the poor thing launching itself right in the middle of the wall. It grows to surpass it by a couple of meters in height if I let it, but this year I pruned it. I do have however a picture of the bloom in all its Glory. About 5-7cm across.






  • 6 years ago

    As a treat, here is the Bobby James immortalized before I cut the main trunks and two tons of foliage. Impossible to give it the TLC it needs with our busy schedule so we thought that by downsizing it and regenerating the canes we might be able to keep it. Unfortunately it's full of mildew that it spreads on the rest of my garden. Snif.


  • 6 years ago

    Oh, I wish you would have left this beauty, Oana. That is my favorite look. Beautiful.

    Oana Belgium, 8b thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
  • 6 years ago

    There are various hardy foetida/pimpinelliafolia hybrids and at a wild guess your mystery rose belongs to this group. Varieties that come to mind are some of the 'Fruehlings-' roses and 'Goldbush', though I know these as shrub roses, not as climbers. Suggestions, fellow forum members? Oana, do you recall what kind of scent your mystery rose has?

    Oana Belgium, 8b thanked Melissa Northern Italy zone 8
  • 6 years ago

    Could the yellow rose be Aglaia:

    https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.158823

    Or even the double yellow Banksia?

    The leaf shape and flower colour does not look like Fruhlingsduft, which is also more of a shrub than a climber. But marvellous!


    Oana Belgium, 8b thanked MetteBee_Copenhagen8b
  • 6 years ago

    Not a banksia for sure.

  • 6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I remember the smell was very light citrus tea. The new basal shoots also got to 5m tall in one season. My attempts to tie it horizontally didn't produce much result, only spindly side shoots but I'll blame it on the trumpet Vine smothering it and lack of fertilizer for many years when the house was rarely inhabited (2nd residence). I will cut down all the old barky canes and see what it does next year. No problem, it doesn't need a name to be loved.



  • 6 years ago

    True, it doesn't need a name, but I'm curious! Okay, a multiflora climber or a wichuriana? Ideas, folks?

    Oana Belgium, 8b thanked Melissa Northern Italy zone 8
  • 6 years ago

    Found one that looks similar, just shorter: Golden Gate

  • 6 years ago

    If it is the Kordes climber you found, I would say you have a match :)

    https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.39721

    Another one for my too long wishlist, oh no...

    Oana Belgium, 8b thanked MetteBee_Copenhagen8b