State of these cuttings

last year

last modified: last year

I am rooting cuttings for the first time These are six cuttings from rose Annie Laurie McDowell that KarenPA so generously sent me. The cuttings were fully alive when I got them but there were no leaves on them. I started them on Nov 16 with some rooting hormone gel. Tonight they look like below, swollen buds and some even seem to be leafing:

My set up is like this, small biodegradable growbags filled with coconut coir covered with capped 2 liter sods bottles and set on a warm seed germination mats:

1) Does the bud swell and leafing mean the cuttings have rooted? I cannot see any roots if I push the media gently away from the stem and roots are not obvious from the sides or from the bottom.

2) Should you consider a cutting to have safely 'rooted' when you see roots along the sides and at the bottom or when you see new leaves?

3) Should I feed the cuttings, say a drop of kelp and fish emulsion in a cup of water? The coir has zero plant food.

4)Once one sees leaves should I take the bottles off and water more frequently?

5)When is a good time to pot them up with regular potting soil in a larger container?

6)Once the cuttings have rooted and they are potted up should you no longer place them on bottom heat?

Thanks a bunch!

Featured Answer

Moses, Western PA., zone 5/6, USA

last year

last modified: last year

Buds swelling and even shoots coming with leaves, DOES NOT mean roots are forming! Roots first, or growth first, OR both at the same time is possible. Resist the urge to remove then replace the cutting to check for roots. The disturbance could be just enough to make the cutting start failing.

As long as growth continues it is impossible for the cutting not to have grown roots!

Your system is an excellent one.

Once the shoot growth is 1.5-2" tall, the pop bottle 'greenhouses,' can have their caps removed. You want the foliage to adjust to household humidity gradually, or the foliage may wilt or wither when the bottles are finally removed.

Be careful about excess watering. I have killed more cuttings with too much watering than for any other reason. Dryer is better than wetter.

Give your young roses bushes as much light and bottom heat as possible. Husky vigorous growth is what you want.

Start a liquid feed program at 1/2 teaspoon (1/6th. strength), of all purpose powder per gallon/water, when shoots are 1.5-2" long, not before! Very weak fertilizing at first, then graduate the strength to 1 tablespoon/gallon very gradually.

This is my advice for you, but you have an excellent handle on things the way I see it. It's just me adding my conclusions through years of me rooting cuttings with many successes and many failures.

Acclimate the young bushes to outside light gradually. Inside light, no matter how strong, is nowhere as intense as sunlight.

Disease and insects may present themselves. Cross that bridge, if so, at that time. Unfortunately, tender new cutting foliage is very sensitive to remedies.

Mites and aphids are the most likely the bugs to show up. They get sprayed off with room temp water.

Black spot or powdery mildew may show up. Try organic sprays, but not oil based ones like neem oil or insecticide soap which will certainly damage tender new growth.

Perhaps just tolerate some insect/fungus issues if they occur depending on the severity, until the young bushes are outside, and acclimated to outside sunlight and growing conditions. At that time insect and disease issues can be addressed since the bushes will be tougher and more resilient then.

Remember too, that not all varieties root the same. Some take root and grow like weeds at almost 100%, while good success with others is less than 50% takes. Never get discouraged, rooting roses is an art. Success comes through learning what works best, and learning takes time.

Moses

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Comments (31)

Moses, Western PA., zone 5/6, USA
last year
last modified: last year
Everything looks great! Are there drainage holes in your soda pots?

Moses
katyajini thanked Moses, Western PA., zone 5/6, USA
katyajini
Original Author
last year
Thank you Moses! Yes. These growbags drain freely throughout. So do you think they have rooted already?
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Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
last year
I think they look great. I would wait until you see roots at the bottom or sides before you celebrate. After that they could be potted up in potting soil and the bottles could be gradually weaned off. I would be afraid to fertilize yet. Once potted up very light gentle fertilizer at first. The bottom heat would get more optional as you go along. Cuttings, please don't turn black. Please, Please, Please.
katyajini thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)
last year
It looks Great !! Give it more time. Sheila is right ! Cross fingers ,cuttings dont turn black. Just grow.....pls :)

Not bad for a first timer !!
katyajini thanked Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)
Kristine LeGault 8a pnw
last year
Wow what a cool system you have come up with. I am so excited for you.

Maybe I will try it again. I didn't have any luck last time but I didn't really have a great deal of knowledge on how to do it.
katyajini thanked Kristine LeGault 8a pnw
rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
last year
I associate black cuttings with death, necrosis.

Is infection a common cause? IF so, what infection(s), and is any targeted preventive measure (like Frontline for Lyme disease) effective?

Any links to studies on this matter?

What. if anything, do commercial growers do?
summersrhythm_z6a
last year
last modified: last year
A great job! I heard ALM is very hard to root.
katyajini thanked summersrhythm_z6a
Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
last year
I read here ALM roots well, it is just a slow grower on it's own roots so give the little plants time and never give up. The slow growth is why some growers have given up. This is a shame, because this plant is worth waiting for.
katyajini thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
seil zone 6b MI
last year
Just leave them alone. They look very healthy so far but sprouting leaves does not guarantee roots have formed. The stems store food and sometimes it will use that stored food to push new growth before the roots have formed. As long as the canes remain green and healthy looking just keep doing what you are doing until you SEE roots on the sides. Congrats to you, good job!
katyajini thanked seil zone 6b MI
katyajini
Original Author
last year
OH!! Thank you everyone!!

Moses, thank you for that long write up of guidance, it will certainly keep me on track. Very, very helpful.

Seil, I have been reading as much as I can fit in and so many places I hear of energy/food stored in the stems, something that you first brought to my attention. I need to post all this new stuff I am learning...

Sheila, you are so right that this rose is worth making the effort for and growing, no matter what this will be fun!

rifis, what you bring up was my first concern, that the cuttings will become infected and rot before they root. So I started with the cleanest props I could think of and gather.....packaged new growbags and coir. And then to keep the media just moist but not wet. So far so good.
philipatx
last year
Everything that Moses said, with the caveat that shoots *can* grow a fair bit without roots, but will eventually exhaust the stem's resources and the whole will decline. (You've probably seen buds grow on cut roses in water, which looks similar to what you picture.)

In other words, the answer to 1.) is a simple no.

I would probably wait until you see roots before fertilizing with anything having much nitrogen. (Moses, would you do a very dilute higher phosphate fertilizer to help with root development at this stage?)

They look pretty happy, but I admittedly tend toward apprehension with such things. (I have a lot of experience with failures, and I find that pessimists suffer only pleasant surprises when things *do* turn out well, and have less disappointment when their assumptions are proven right. ;-) )

I am a bit cruder in my rooting methodology, so you are probably better off, but when I see growth pushing within two weeks of trying to start a cutting, I worry that the cutting has got its priorities all wrong. In my experience, this is sometimes exacerbated by too much moisture -- it seems to override the messaging, "Hey, I need me some roots!" If the buds at the nodes were already elongated when you started the process, however, your cutting was likely already prioritizing its focus on shoot growth. (The plant's hormones were already working towards such.) The juvenile shoot growth without supporting roots can put more demands and stress on the cutting.

You want the medium to be somewhere between humid and only ever-so-slightly moist, but *never* wet.

Good luck! ALMD is a rose I would like to acquire someday.
katyajini thanked philipatx
katyajini
Original Author
last year
Philipatx thank you so much. That is all such good, important information...

There was no growth at the buds when I got the cuttings. But I am assuming there has not been any significant root growth yet.
Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal
last year
Oh wow! Your setup looks great. I will be following this post to see how it works for you. I got ALMD budded on Multiflora sent to me a few weeks ago. The new growth looks like yours, but covered in aphids now. I keep trying to gently spray them off with water. I hope she survives. She’s in her permanent home, but it’s shady near the ground and she won’t get warm sun until she grows upwards.
katyajini thanked Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal
katyajini
Original Author
last year
Thanks Stephanie! If you have a moment please share a picture of your baby ALMD.
katyajini
Original Author
last year
Hi everyone!

Very sad to say all the cuttings died. When Sheila wrote, please dont turn black, I could not even imagine what that would be like. My health started to fail over this winter and I could not focus very well. So maybe I missed something. Or maybe it was going to happen anyway... The cuttings did turn black and passed away. Now I am back to dreaming of and looking for Annie Laurie McDowell. Thanks for your encouragement. It was good while it lasted for me and mine:
Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
last year
That is heartbreaking when it happens. It looks like kitty is enjoying the heating pad though. Usually it is the result of too much moisture. Unfortunately my beautifully rooted cuttings of Annie all died. In fact I lost so many cuttings because I had them in my vestibule for I will often keep things but we had such cold cold weather in early November that I think it killed the roots but didn't look like that and slowly they died as a result of that. I brought everything into my Solarium and nothing died that looked good but anything that was iffy eventually died. I've never had this happen before but I normally didn't keep cuttings in that room. Tried in my bathroom but it was too warm. It is a live and learn. Next year I will just keep everything in the solarium. Or put it to go dormant. I even lost some that were well rooted and a year old. I don't know when I will get some of these varieties again so it made me sad and I can completely identify with you. I was hoping yours would make it. I'm starting some now not of Annie but some other ones so wish me luck. They are prunings and I'm just sticking them outside. I already had one from but I trimmed off and it already calloused. I forgot I'd stuck it in the ground by wondered what is the this Sally Holmes doing here and sure enough it had already calloused. I will edit this tomorrow at the computer. LOL!
katyajini thanked Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
katyajini
Original Author
last year
Wow! You lost so much. I just lost lost one...I wanted it badly but still it was just a lark. I am so sorry. Yes live and learn. I will remember its the moisture.
Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
last year
Katya, I am so sorry. Do keep trying. Here, I have had some luck leaving cuttings open to air and no cover.
katyajini thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
BenT (8a Dallas, TX)
last year
last modified: last year
I’m sorry you lost your cuttings of a hard to obtain rose, Katya. All my cuttings I tried inside under lights died as well. There’s some things I must be doing wrong and still need to learn. There are some aspects of rose growing that I think I have come to really understand well, but this isn’t one of them! I started some more this spring, some are still alive, but far from out in the clear.

Kitty looks so comfortable on that heating pad, at least someone‘s happy!
katyajini thanked BenT (8a Dallas, TX)
noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque)
last year
I agree with Vaporvac - it is so heartbreaking when they fail. I struggled with cuttings for years, and some varieties are easier than others. In my experience, dormant season cuttings (“hardwood” cuttings) do best when they are kept very cool without freezing (I.e. 40-50 degrees) so that they don’t push growth before roots. My mother in Coastal California has nearly 100% rooting just pushing prunings into the soil in the winter. I’m much more successful taking cuttings from just below a flower that has just faded (ie summer) and growing them warm and humid along side the orchids. I‘m always amazed by my mother’s success, and she thinks my method is weird and too labor intensive. Keep trying, to find what works for you. Good luck!
katyajini thanked noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque)
katyajini
Original Author
last year
Thank you so much everyone! All of you are so kind. I will keep working on it. I really should have tried 3 one way and 3 a different way or even 3 different ways ....when resources are limited and the process uncertain....

Sheila I think the humidity was too much. I wont do the cover thing again unless something really convinces me!

noseometer: what smart methods both you and your mom have. Your moms method is so easy to practice with. Now that I am recollecting slightly my mom too, never stressed at all, just pushed cuttings in to the soil and it always worked for her. At the time I just was not interested in gardening and did not pay attention. Thank you for sharing, <3

Thank you BenT, I am learning right with you and from you!
Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
9 months ago
last modified: 9 months ago
Katya, I neglected to say at the time, I was sorry to hear of your illness and hope you are better now. Did you try cuttings again?
katyajini thanked Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
strawchicago z5
9 months ago
last modified: 9 months ago
I wrote a long post on rooting Annie McDowell, but the post didn't go through this morning (Houzz is having technical problems). So I copy-paste what I wrote in Organic Rose forum many years ago:

ROOTING ROSES with soft-wood cuttings IN LESS THAN 2 MONTHS. I'm in zone 5a, Chicagoland. Roses die to the crown through winter, and don't sprout new canes until May. Below rootings are from softwood & new growth. Soft-wood needs FAST DRAINAGE, so I use 1/3 perlite, 1/3 vermiculite, 1/3 sand or peaty potting soil. I drilled extra holes on the side of pots for fast drainage.
First I top with my high magnesium clay, later on I top with high-nitrogen black peat compost. Watering is done once a day with acidic rain-water plus soaked red-lava for potassium. Soft-wood cuttings need more sun (at least 4 hrs.) to prevent fungal rot. Also pots are under a Norway spruce trees to shelter them from heavy rain that rot roots. These pots receive 10 to 20% of rain. I also put them ON TOP OF BRICKS to prevent roots of tree from crawling upward into pots.

Below pic. is Evelyn from a rooting taken from a cutting 2 months ago. Since it's in partial shade, leaf-cutter bees ate the leaves.

Rooting softwood is different from hardwood. Softwood requires more sun and I CANNOT COVER with plastic (they rot). But hardwood can be PARTIALLY covered with plastic to create more humidity, see below picture from below link (by Pamela), using coffee-cup (with plastic lid), but there's a hole to allow air to get it. https://www.flowerpatchfarmhouse.com/rooting-roses-from.../

Differences between soft-wood and hard-wood rooting: Soft-wood cuttings needs to be soaked for 1 day with alkaline tap water, rooting hormone is NOT necessary if the end is wounded. Soft-wood's leaves wilt easily with acidic rain. Soft-wood needs a FAST-DRAINING & fluffy medium such as perlite & potting soil, plus vermiculite to retain nutrients. Soft-wood also needs alkaline pH (more lime added). Soft-wood rots easily if the medium is acidic. Soft-wood also rots if covered with a plastic bag, best rooted in open air. Soft-wood also needs more sun to grow leaves. Below are my soft-wood rootings receiving only 10 to 20% of rain since heavy rain rots the rootings easily.

HARD-WOOD rooting: needs longer-soak in acidic rain-water, plus rooting hormone to develop roots. Needs a wetter medium (such as 3/4 sand & 1/4 to 1/3 peatmoss), needs more shade, best with high humidity such as a plastic cover. To soak, see below link: "A long soak of the cuttings in one inch of below solution for 12-25 hours. Rates if you use Rhizopon AA Water Soluble Tablets: 1-2 tablets per liter of water." http://www.rooting-hormones.com/rose.htm

Fat bud on a rooting done in less than 2 months. The secret is red-lava rock watering for potassium & iron. Learn that tip from HMF Jay-Jay in the Netherlands ... he grows roses from seeds, using red-lava-sand.

Below are my rootings done a few years ago under a spruce tree to block out heavy rain:
Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
9 months ago
last modified: 9 months ago
It seems we all converge on similar methods here in the Mid-West. I have VERY high rate of rooting usually withing 3-5 weeks these days which is why I was devastated to lose over 75 varieties last winter to freeze. Some were larger plants. In truth, I hardly fiddle with soft-wood cuttings, but have only successfully rooted one hardwood one. However, since I've only ever tried with six cuttings that isn't too bad a record. I said I wasn't going to try this year, but I lied to myself as the thrill of cuttings taking off is more than I can resist. I really have to figure out if I should plant them small and protect them outside or just put them in the insulated garage and pray. Straw, what do you do with your small rooted cuttings? I think Seil leaves hers outside, but mine would surely die as they did in my vestibule.
strawchicago z5
9 months ago
Vaporvac: Easy to root, but hard to keep them alive in my unheated garage through zone 5a winter. So I mail ALL MY ROOTINGS out to warmer zones for friends & family. Below is a box of rootings I made, which I mailed to my sister in Idaho, zone 7:

Then they grow my rootings big to bloom, and they send me pics. of the roses that I rooted for them, and I have no idea what it is since I NEVER LABEL MY ROOTINGS !!
Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
9 months ago
That's so funny, Straw. I label my cuttings, but STILL don't know what half of them are. Some gremlin comes in during the night and moves them all around. Actually, it's usually a squirrel or chipmunk knocking them over and strewing the tags! I'm so regretting not sending a couple of lovely tender ones to a friend in FL, but I wanted to see the Spring bloom. Then they died and I felt doubly bad. My garage is attached, unheated, but well insulated. I've successfully kept larger roses there before, yet I worry about small babies. Have you ever planted them out in the Fall? I'm seriously considering asking a friend with a proper greenhouse to look after them in exchange for plants.
strawchicago z5
9 months ago
Vaporvac: The only time I had success over-winter rooting in unheated garage is with PINE-FINES medium which drains water fast. Pine-fines ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE at store. The problem with potting-soil medium is: even if these rootings survive the winter inside the garage, SPRING HEAVY rain kill them, or sudden frost in May kill them. In spring I saw rain-water floating on top of pots, and killed a bunch of rootings. So I no longer transfer from rooting-medium to regular potting soil when over-winter in garage. I did plant Perle d'Or rooting INTO the ground early May in fluffy soil (fast draining) and that got killed by frost. So the only safe time to plant band-size smack into the ground is end of May (free of frost here in zone 5).
Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
9 months ago
OMG! Straw, that is exactly my conclusion with potting soil and over-wintering here. I've even changed to ordering plants first week of May at the earliest figuring it's best to let others shepherd them through tough Springs. I lost Margot Koster and many others that way this past spring with the cvuttings that got frozen in the Fall. I am so mad all the stores no longer carry pine bark fines aka soil conditioner, and mover to coir which did not do well for me. I make my own mix with lots of perlite. For three winters I did OK, but this one was bad due to the early freeze and also a leak in my pool room. At least the figs survived. I root my cuttings in the wood chips of a large oak I had cut down and which you may remember the huge pile in my yard. After the winter it was the best for cuttings, but now I only have 1/2 paint bucket left. I've thought about calling a mulch place to see if they'd sell me a small amount of PBF or the coarse chicken grit sand. I had zero success with play sand. It must be gritting with all our rain. Thanks for your experience. I will search out the PBFs, I think.
strawchicago z5
9 months ago
last modified: 9 months ago
Vaporvac: You gave me a good laugh on the critters that messed up your rootings' labels .. Thanks. Stores don't sell Pine bark Fines .. so I was desperate ... I bought pine-straws from Walmart (the yellowish shavings to line rabbits' cage), and I used husband's $400 brand-new Breville food-processor to grind the pine-straw into bits to root roses. Except the pine's shavings were so sharp that IT MELTED the plastic bowl. Husband was mad !! He had to order another plastic bowl for $35 for his food-processor.

With our heavy rain WATER DOES NOT DRAIN WELL from play sand. Coarse builder sand drains water faster, but the particles become smaller & break down into dust with months of acidic rain.

This year I test GLASS MASON Jars ON TOP OF ROOTINGS (to retain moisture & block out excess rain), and it works really well. Austin roses or low-thorn roses like a wetter medium with vermiculite mixed in.
katyajini
Original Author
9 months ago
@Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley Thank you so much for remembering this thread. I did not try cuttings again simply because I am overwhelmed by the number of roses I have purchased this season. If I tried a cutting I really would like to try ALMD again! I dont know where I would place her but she is too special to miss. Cuttings are hard and I guess you have to develop a sixth sense for them. @strawchicago z5 and Vapor both of you left so much detail here I am sure to read it all very carefully when I start rooting a cutting.

You are so kind to ask about my health Vapor. I am staying focused on the good things and trying to get better everyday. Thank you❤