Thanks for updating with some great pics. I couldn't help but hop over to the HMF listing for 'George Elger', and I see that there are some more pics there since last I looked. The last two by Margaret Furness in November are particularly identical to "Schmidt's Smooth Yellow" -- at least, to my eye.

https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.337206

https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.337205

Of course, it's also possible that the rose growing under that name in Australia is also misnamed, and also just happens to be the same as the foundling grown here as SSY, but I still think that SSY = GE. Since GE was a parent of 'Sunshine', perhaps someone could do a genetic comparison of both to see if GE comes up as being 50% identical.

:-)

~Christopher

What a cheery rose!

Pretty rose! Nice to see some sunshine. It has been mostly grey here and gloomy, blech!

What a pretty poly! (Sorry, couldn't resist.) There are so few yellow polys. I'd be interested to hear about what might be discovered in a DNA test.

I love growing my polys because they do so well with minimal fussing, maybe because of multiflora ancestry? It is a local scourge. I wish SSY was more easily available. However, roses that shine in SoCal rarely do well here too, so maybe it's a good thing that it isn't.

I thought Rose Petals has it Kes, in Florida. You might have to try it.

The Wichurana Polys would also probably do well for you. Alister Clark bred some in Australia -- basically, they're dwarf reblooming Wichurana Ramblers. We have 'Borderer' at my job, and it's rather adorable.

Perhaps some Wichurana ancestry could explain why SSY does well for you. Interestingly, 'Yvonne Rabier' -- a Wichurana Poly -- was bred by the same breeder who introduced 'George Elger' shortly after. Hmmm.......

:-)

~Christopher

And George Elger is of unk. parentage. So, something to think about.

Was/is George Elger thornless? There's nothing about that, in the description.

And did you know that there was a Cl. version? THAT would be welcome!

The oldest reference (in French) mentions "smooth wood".....

MM. Turbat et C°, horticulteurs à Orleans, vendent à l'automne 1912 : GEORGE ELGER (Multiflore ou Polyantha nain remontant). Variété très florifère, de croissance érigée, bois lisse, vert rougeàtre, feuillage vert foncé, brillant en dessus, brun rougeàtre en dessous, fleurs en grands corymbes, jaune d'or cuivré passant au jaune clair à répanouissement, boutons jaune d'or. Le plus jaune des Polyanthas remontants. Pourrait être appelé “W. A. Richardson nain”. Se prête admirablement au forçage ; variété de grand avenir pour culture en pots et pour massifs.

Translation:

Messrs. Turbat et C °, horticulturalists in Orleans, sell in the fall of 1912: GEORGE ELGER (Multiflore or Polyantha dwarf going up). Very floriferous variety, with erect growth, smooth wood, reddish green, dark green foliage, shiny above, reddish brown below, flowers in large corymbs, coppery golden yellow turning to light yellow with blooming, golden yellow buttons. The most yellow of the rising Polyanthas. Could be called “W. A. Richardson dwarf ”. Lends itself admirably to forcing; variety of great future for culture in pots and for beds.

:-)

~Christopher

And that's a good description of SSY.

(I DO wish I had a climbing version.)

Do we by chance know if it was in general commerce in the U.S.?

The HelpMeFind page for 'George Elger' lists The Roses of Monterey as an archived source. This was a precursor to ROYAT. References also include some east coast catalog descriptions. Two scanned photos are from US nurseries -- one in Texas, the other Ohio. And frankly, the pics of SSY and what's grown in Australia as GE -- as well as the two older scanned pics of GE -- look identical, which is more than can be said for what little we have of 'Eugenie Lamesch' in the way of descriptions and images. If and when a genetic comparison with 'Sunshine' is made, we'll have a better answer -- 'Sunshine' is a seedling of 'George Elger'. Or, at least, that's it's reported parentage.

:-)

~Christopher

OK, piping in with my less than 2 cents worth. Do you know how much I relish this type of post on this board? I learn so much from such "chit chat" that I could spend the day reading and looking things up. Thank you so much for posting and helping me to learn more and more about this flower called a rose. I just love the genetics "stuff!" So not to hijack this thread, I am curious, who pays for such genetic testing and where is it done? Is this something college students do as part of a project?

I am enjoying "chats " like this too.

Somehow, i have a gut feeling that Dr. Manners has a big major role in this or part of this.

Also who makes the calls which rose is DNA tested ? Is it ARS or some rose community ?

How long is the process ?

I agree with Christopher - all of the pics of George Elger I have seen look exactly like my living bushes/blooms of SSY. Eugenie Lamesch (Lambert, 1899) was also suggested as a match, but there are NO photographs of EL I have been able to locate - only paintings, which do look very like it, including the red tipped buds with the blunt tops. Anyway, no comparison with an actual photo has been possible. Of course, as GE is of "unknown parentage", all three roses may be the same rose, who knows? If anyone has or knows of a PHOTOGRAPH of Eugenie Lamesch, I would appreciate knowing about it. Meanwhile, I definitely think that GE is the same rose as SSY.

Does anyone know of a source of George Elger? The only location I was able to find which had a live plant was at a public rose garden in Australia, sigh.

Jackie

OH OH OH!!! Roses of Monterey was Frances E. Lester ... and HE was one of our early "Rose Rustlers" -- or savers and collectors of Old And Forgotten Roses.

What I wouldn't give to be able to go back in time and talk with that fascinating man!

I really SHOULD buy this:
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30272851193&cm_mmc=ggl--US_Shopp_nonISBNTrade--naa-_-naa&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6IHwBRCJARIsALNjViXNo56Dk-5gl3CbEfRn7j7WuI900l9w4cfarXBGDcQ_32SUxLN_37saAgUZEALw_wcB

I HAVE this one:
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=22585163097&cm_mmc=ggl--COM_Shopp_Rare--naa-_-naa&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6IHwBRCJARIsALNjViXgYhZOOa9I1pfosdOIQhByhuDxZ4hEhr258w-X0W_LbikTvIhHAKUaAtvqEALw_wcB

Whoa !!

Got to have the leathery book bec it looks absolutely beautiful like olden days. I dont mind having both books. Thanks , Jeri !

Jeri, if you are not holding out for the leather bound version, Amazon has "Roses of Monterey: 1933..." by Lester in a re-done 2019 hardback and paperback version(s) - I just ordered the paperback for about $8.

Jackie

Thanks Jackie -- But it's a Christmas Gift to myself ... so I ordered it.

I ordered both on Jeri's link. But i have two dates on arrivals next year. The leather one is jan 3 to January 16 the other is January 24 to Feb 7th.

Jackie, I did look at Amazon for "My Friend the Rose" but it was unavailable. I did wanted hard cover.

Anyways, thank you both Jeri and Jackie :)

Happy Holidays !! :))

My Friend the Rose got cancel by Abebooks bec it was sold out.

Kinda disappointing bec the email said too many orders. Guess the demand was very high :((

This is What happens when things get posted.:-( :-)

Perhaps but i doubt it :)

It is great to hear recommended books. It was already sold out at Amazon but they also put up a link to the bookstore ( look at pic above) which is a great idea perhaps another time it will be available after all it is the major Holidays :)

I am joking! It's always best to share. :-)

"MY FRIEND THE ROSE" is around, though. I think it sold cheaply enough back when it was introduced, and there were many copies.

My book came today. I am so happy :)

Thanks Jeri for recommending :)

But the book i order look different than the one i got. Hmm!!?

Well, it is very different from what i order. Amex, is going to look at it bec it is also a huge price difference. I will know in 2 days.

Look to see what year it was printed and what edition it is. You may have received a reprint or a later edition. You have to be careful ordering from Amazon. Years ago, jimofshermanoaks ordered Southern California Gardens on my recommendation. He paid the very high price for the original hardback edition of the book and Amazon supplied him with the smaller format, soft cover reprint. He had to contest that as there is a tremendous difference between a $140 large hard cover and a $39.95, smaller soft cover. They don't know the difference. They only deal in money. If yours is later than the original 1942 edition, it may not be worth the cost you paid, depending upon what you paid for it. It could also be what you received is correct but without the dust jacket (printed paper book cover), which also affects the value of the book.

Kim, i try to answer a few times and both lengthy and it disappears on me. So, i am using my tower this time.

i have never order from India. The company i read is really good but their invoice threw me off. Trust me it took me hours to figure this out bec nothing matches. i thought the charge me wrongly or i got a wrong book .

The author name is not on the book. The invoice send to me is deceiving. the only charge is USD $8 was to a 3rd party. [ That took me a while to figure it out } The whole invoice threw me off so i have to look for ISBN which was in the book is invalid. All the tedious steps...omg.

i cant find the order number from my invoice. My invoice i have all sorts of numbers and Nothing matches with anything , i even zooming in the pic posted on website only difference is the spine looks a little different but all is good now. i figured it out slowly.....lol. Blaming the invoice which is the main culprit and very confusing. .

All is good now besides i love the book as soon as i open it.

i felt so bad about jimofshermanoaks . i hope Amazon replaced his book .

I'm glad all is good and you love the book. It's a great one. Yes, thank you. Jim complained to Amazon and they made it right. That event demonstrated just how little they knew and how much YOU have to police what they do and watch what you order from them. Congratulations!

Agreed and Thank You !

So glad you were able to get it sorted, Jin. You’ll have to update us once you’ve had a chance to enjoy the book. :-)

I fell for it as well, and I was disappointed. But it's a nice book, all the same, so I'm satisfied, all in all.

So was this the correct book?

I think so. But you know, I think we were paying for the fancy binding on what was, essentially a catalog. Ephemera, dressed-up.

I get it....switch and bait.

That's what my husband keep saying to me yesterday all day. It is switch and bait but i have to agree with Jeri .