Chinese junk quality with a terrible finish is what most people are upgrading From, not To. You need a different contractor and a different cabinet line.

Conversion varnish is what we use. It is more expensive for us but much more durable.

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How do I know if the company is manufacturing their cabinets from China?

@Creative Design Cabinetry Which brand do you use?

Thank you! Do you think conversion varnish is a necessity for painted white cabinets? I don’t get much natural light in our kitchen, so UV exposure isn’t going to be an issue.

I’m also considering purchasing from Schrock, a bigger brand that supposedly has a better process of baking on their finish so it’s more durable. But I don’t believe they use a conversion varnish.

Not a baked on finish. Unfortunately sales people all over mislead customers to believe this. Ovens only serve one purpose, to speed up the evaporation of solvents. If u/v cured, that only speeds up the cross-linking process for the conversion varnish.

Conversion varnish finishes are the same whether acid or u/v catalyzed.

You might as well get the best bang for your buck. Not only is it more u/v resistant, but withstands much more than traditional finishes.

First, I am not a fan of true conversion varnishes. There is a reason that many countries have banned conversion varnish for consumer products and I firmly believe we should do the same in the U.S. Binding the formaldehyde was a trick to lower formaldehyde emissions to just below the acceptable levels but it extends the emission duration ten fold. It doesn't even make sense. The answer to too much Xylene is add more Xylene.

Next, at this point there are several products that outperform conversion varnish and don't come with the health hazards. Many waterborne and waterbased products will perform just as well or better. Two part poly's are specifically outperforming conversion varnish on a regular basis. The cabinetmaking industry is not exactly filled with a bunch of early adopters. Conversion varnish, in its present form, was around for 25 years before it was largely accepted by the industry and many still haven't accepted it. At the rate we are going it will take another 20 years for manufacturers to accept that two part poly's are better. However, the reality is, they are better now whether or not cabinetmakers accept it today or 20 years from now.

Finally, the answer to your question is one that gets a bit nuanced. No, you don't need conversion varnish. No, it isn't the most durable coating anymore. Is it more durable than the coating that you are getting? Maybe. How much more durable? That is the real question.

In reality some of the durability gets overblown. Asking which coating is the best doesn't tell you the value of paying more for that coating. So to really discuss this, we need to know coating A performance vs. coating B performance and the price difference of each. There are many coatings out there that meet KCMA approval and they are all durable enough for normal wear. There are coatings that perform better in specific situations and if you meet those situations then it might be valuable to you, if not you may just be throwing your money away.

Conversion varnish finishes are the same whether acid or u/v catalyzed.

That is not true. Comparing a fully cured UV finish with an fully cured acid finish will result in equal hardness. However, UV wasn't introduced to increase durability, it was introduced to provide the same durability with far fewer health concerns.

Thank for both for the very helpful information!

I asked some local cabinetry companies what finishes they use and was told this:

• ProCraft “our cabinets have a MDF coat which does have a varnish, manufactured in Cambodia”

• LCM Custom Cabinets “we use a pre-catalyzed lacquer that is almost the same as a conversion varnish. But we can also use conversion varnish if request” (does that mean they would double the varnish finish??)

• Grand J&K “uses paint grade finish, manufactured in China”

@bry911 what other alternative finishes should I be looking for in white painted cabinets (other than the 2 part poly’s). I want to make sure I’m informing myself about how the cabinets were finished so that they stay looking a crisp white as long as possible.

Why are you looking at such bottom of the line cabinets to begin with? Move up to mid grade with a lifetime warranty. Tons of choices, and more than durable enough for life. Not abuse, but real life.

@live_wire_oak - to be honest I don’t even know what to look for in a cabinetry company. One is a local company and I think the others are just small companies - these are the places that my contractor prefers to use. Otherwise I was looking at Schrock. Which is why I’m trying to educate myself more so I can ask the right questions. Are there companies that you recommend?

Sorry but the choice of my cabinets is not decided by my contractor ever. BTW MDF is what the cabinets should be made of if you are having them painted.

Kraftmaid/Merillat, Kemper/Diamond/Schrock, Medallion/Yorktown/Schuler, Showplace, Dynasty, ......... You just have to move up from the level that you’re looking at. At that level, all factory sourced cabinets will use CV.

There are tons of great cabinets out there. The Kitchen Designer is more important than the cabinets. Find a good Kitchen Designer. And remember that cabinets are 30-40% of the overall national average of 68K for a kitchen remodel. 20-25K is pretty average. https://www.remodeling.hw.net/cost-vs-value/2020/

@Patricia Colwell Consulting I thought MDF is what you want to stay away from? Why does MDF work better with paint? Is it because paint adheres to it better? I'll take the advance of selecting my own cabinet brands for my contractor to install.

@live_wire_oak Thanks for that link - very helpful information. The cabinets are definitely the most expensive part of our remodel. We are expanding our kitchen area and re-doing our floors, so the project scope is maxing out our budget. We're trying to figure out what things we can compromise while still getting quality products (which i'm finding is nearly impossible!) I'm going to try and get quotes from those companies you mentioned for comparison. Thank you for the recommendations and helpful information.

Yes the paint sticks better but above that MDF does not expand and contract like wood so the seams stay perfect and do not show expansion joints. IMO if you want to get good quality for a decent price go with Ikea I use Ikea a lot in my design biz and in my own home IMO still the best bang for your buck with a great warranty too.

@CD from what I understand, a MDF center flat panel is sometimes desirable, because MDF expands and contract less than a solid wood panel and it is less likely to warp or crack. Wood framing around a MDF panel will have some minor paint separation at the wood seams with seasonal changes, but by using MDF for the center panel it will greatly reduce the unsightliness of paint gapping around the perimeter of the center panel.

MDF is THE best choice for painted case goods of any variety. Cabinets are just fancy case goods.The issues happen when some jackleg shop tries to use the wrong joinery for the material being used. Or uses an inferior coating. This is why it’s important to find the better quality cabinets and the better quality designer both.

@CD, What cabinets did you end up going with? I'm in the same place trying to find a quality finish for white cabinets without blowing the entire budget. I got a quote for Showplace which uses a "baked" conversion varnish but I'm wondering how the other brands recommended compare in price? Thanks!

@ayoshino We went with a local Seattle cabinet maker called Urban Cabinets NW. They simply told me that they use a varnish finish, not sure what their process was. It was hard for me to compare prices because I was going through a general contractor as the middle man, so they typically mark up the price.

As far as quality .. time will tell I suppose. For the most part, they have held up so far (it's almost been a full year since my project completed).

The varnish definitely changes the color of the cabinets, I should have gone with a more pure white. When I had warmer lights, the cabinets looked even more yellow and dark so I had to swap them out for brighter white bulbs.

@CD Thank you so much for responding. Your cabinets look great! Thanks for your picture that shows the difference in color of the same paint with varnish and no varnish. It is really beautiful none the less.