How big is the area available? You'll need a very big space to fit them both in with space to grow to their natural potential. And imo it'll look very busy with the leaf shapes and colours.

That's what I was worried about. Thanks.

Embothrium, I believe these are a new series of Japanese/Korean hybrids cultivated for Zone 4. Jack Frost is the series. I read about them about four years ago, but was never able to find them until this year.

Can you tell me more about smoke trees? Monrovia has Royal Purple hardy to Zone 4. Many growers say Zone 5. What is your experience with either Grace or Royal Purple?

There's a lot of variability in the hardiness of smoke bush. From my experience Royal Purple is less hardy and is a dieback shrub in Zone 4. Other selections, like Winecraft Black seem hardier and the stems survive most winters. Grace can get enormous, but does well in zone 4.

Just a quick comment on the Jack Frost maples. While probably hardier than your average pure Japanese maple, I don't think they're reliable in all of zone 4. Probably zone 4b not in exposed locations.. My Ice Dragon took a hit in 2018-2019, but it did recover. Fine after this winter.

Grace gets massive! Maybe twice the size of a regular smoke bush. And your hybrid maple will be more cold tolerant than the smoke bush. You are pushing the zonal envelope with that one.

Pennlake, what type of winter did you experience in 2018/2019?

I had a small one I planted last year in a brutal peel your face north west location and shocked I didn’t see any die back. We had record lows in November, mild December and average Jan and Feb.

I found that Grace experiences dieback in zone 5. I maintained it as a 10’ shrub between dieback and cutting it back.

Its the purple one left of sugar maple

whaas_5a that's a gorgeous combination. What kind of maple is that?

18-19 was mild until late Jan with two nights of -30f and brutal NW winds. It was fully exposed to those winds. Otherwise fine in 17-18 and 19-20. Not reliable up in Fargo from what I hear. hence some caution in zone 4.

I just planted an Ice Dragon. It’s smaller than others in the JF collection — supposedly. I’m hoping it takes the form of A. p. ‘Waterfall’, but I’m not betting on it. However, I did see a specimen at a nursery in River Falls that Iseli gave as a test plant. They planted it on a low mound within the retail area and it was impressive. I’ve been determined to get one ever since, but they are pricey. Those Iseli folks are good business people; they know there’s demand in northern climes for Japanese Maples.

I’ve grown the native and European Cotinus, but both are long gone. I suppose there’s nothing inherently wrong with dieback shrubs, but isn’t that what herbaceous plants are for?

My sister has a Nordine Smokebush. She also lives in MN, farther north of me, near the Twin Cities. She has had it for at least 10 years, maybe even 20? And it's doing fantastic.

-30 would be rough on any plant!

The low this past season was -15 so nothing in comparison. The wind is so strong here it’s starting to create a permanent bend in the trunks.

Yeah those Ice Dragon are spendy which is why I snagged 3 of them for a grouping once I found them for a reasonable price

The maple shown is a Fall Fiesta

I think I will wait on the smoketree until next year. Although working from home, I'm getting much more accomplished earlier, so who knows? The neighbor is getting rid of 4 trees soon; that should give me at little more sunlight and options. I'll start a new thread asking about success with smokebush in Zone 4. I am in 4b.

My Ice Dragon has apparently recovered from the winter of 18-19. Growing vigorously and looks fantastic this year. it was thin all of last year

Beautiful! I just planted my Ice Dragon this week, along with a Velvet Viking.

The universe didn't want me to have that tree! First, my local greenhouse ordered the wrong one. They didn't know if they'd be able to get another shipment, so I purchased one at a location in the twin cities online, drove up there to get it, and they were out!

About a week later, I was in Mankato for about 4 hours running errands, drove home, and the second I pulled in the driveway, I got a call from the Mankato greenhouse letting me know the tree was in. I drove right back to get it. I have to say..it's lovelier than I imagined. Do you do anything for winter protection?

No winter protection. It's already too big and getting bigger. Mine is exposed to WNW winds in the winter due to a 40 acre lake. Based on some other anecdotal reports, I stand by my statement to use caution in Zone 4 in exposed sites with this plant.

Regarding smokebush, My Winecraft Black leafed out from the tips for the second year in a row so that may be a hardier purple leaf option for zone 4.