Ones with girdled root stock or extreme pot bound - holy hell thats the other pandemic

They aren't Latin names, they are botanical names! Some have Greek as well as other languages. And I would. add to whaas's list, those that have their crowns buried. Another pandemic!

What problems are associated with tsuga canadensis?

Martha,

Tsuga canadensis is in a battle with HWA.

Hemlock woolly adelgid (Adelges tsugae Annand), a tiny aphid-like insect native to Japan, is one of the most damaging invasive forest pests in eastern North America. Since it was discovered in 1951 in Virginia, this pest has been spreading across much of the range of eastern hemlock (Tsuga canadensis).

[https://www.canr.msu.edu/resources/options_for_protecting_hemlock_trees_from_hemlock_woolly_adelgid_e3349#:~:text=Hemlock%20woolly%20adelgid%20(Adelges%20tsugae,eastern%20hemlock%20(Tsuga%20canadensis).](https://www.canr.msu.edu/resources/options_for_protecting_hemlock_trees_from_hemlock_woolly_adelgid_e3349#:~:text=Hemlock%20woolly%20adelgid%20(Adelges%20tsugae,eastern%20hemlock%20(Tsuga%20canadensis).)

Matt, thanks so much for this information. I saw the trees at the Morton Arboretum and was considering planting one in my backyard; I'll continue looking for a different conifer.

Thanks for this list. I saw an Austrian Pine last year at a nursery and wanted one until I read about it's problems. Then I discovered Bosnian Pine which I love just as much and seems a somewhat similar replacement. Hope I don't see it on your list because it's already in the ground.

sorry, been berry pickin'

Matt W is recommending fir for the reject list. Can't say I agree with that. davidrt28's thread is a good example of healthy fir. Note the posters took the time and trouble to include pix to bolster their position.

beng included Scot's Pine to which I say of course, how did I omit this one. I cannot say the last time I saw a healthy, established Scot's pine, they are pretty much ancient history.

I don't see a problem with Italian Stone pine where hardy enough. There was one at the NCSU arboretum for many years. Also, in North Carolina, the Bartlett arboretum currently has a couple.

BTW a lot of firs actually sold in east coast nurseries ARE a bad idea...cultivars grafted onto Balsam Fir,or "Canaan", or even worse, western US native firs. They should ideally be grafted on firma anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon and maybe Nordmann fir north of it.

sam's listing of firs is true for my site -- can't grow 'em w/any vigor if at all. Frost hollow, wet soil and all that... There are a few good firs (usually concolor) on well-drained hilltops near me tho.

To expand on my comment about Firs (Abies), I think original comment to add comments to the reject list may be a little harsh but it is certainly a possibility for most. Out of all of the conifers that I have bought/planted on my property, the highest mortality rate for them is by far Abies. There are several factors attributable to this namely those that have already been mentioned in that the higher midwest humidity and hot summers is a little harsh for them compared to their native climates.

Now, I am able to grow Firs, but it is extremely site specific as to if I can limit the sunlight for them so they do not fry, and that I can get them watered more than the other conifers. Lastly, as noted they do not like to have wet conditions so the soil conditions need to be more precise for them than Pinus or Picea families for me.

So what does this mean? I have had some moderate success with Abies concolor and Abies koreana, and Abies numidica. But that moderate success has probably involves 1-3 dead plants for every successfull one that I have. So for the average conifer nut, is that acceptable? I don't think it is and I think that should be a deterent. Even though they can live in zone5/6, I suspect that most should move on unless they have the ability to care for their Abies very specifically.

Current abies that I have in the ground growing:

Abies koreana 'Green carpet'

Abies koreana 'Tundra'

Abies koreana 'Silberlocke' ***

Abies koreana 'Aurea'

Abies concolor 'Hosta la vista'

Abies c. 'Watazii prostrate'

Abies c. 'Wintergold'

Abies b. 'Reeseville'

Abies numidica 'Pendula'

Abies b. 'Cuprona Jewel' (spelling?)

Abies that are too new or not thriving as of yet:

Abies koreana 'Golden glow'

Abies alba 'Holden's WB'

Abies concolor (straight species)

Abies balsam (straight species)

Abies concolr 'Gable's weeping'

abies nordmanniana 'Barabits compact'

Abies procera 'Glauca' ****

Abies procera ' Delbar cascade' ****

Abies pinsapo 'Horstmann' ****

***are on Firma understock

If I went through the list of things that I have killed, it would probably be 2-3 times larger than the ones surviving/thriving. Not to mention, my list of surviving/thriving have only been in the ground 3-5 years max. One other interest note to me, some of the specialty growers around me in Columbus have drastically been reducing the firs they have available to sell mainly due to lack of demand and some of the issues that I have noted above.

Treat this like a PS, one of the last things to mention about Abies is that I am pretty interested in understanding some of the new Abies hybrids coming on the market. I have a hybrid Koreana x Lasiocarpa (I heard others call it Koreaocarpa which is quite catchy). Anyway, I have a couple Koreaocarpa hybrids that are doing really well on my property. I think they are on concolor rootstock. So i am unsure if they are doing well due to the location, or the hybrid vigor that they have. If anyone has any thoughts on this let me know and we can create a seperate thread on that topic and discuss.

Thanks for listening to me blabber...

Cheers,

Matt

While I am at it, I wanted to respond to Martha regarding Tsuga canadensis. I have still been putting in some Tsuga canadensis dwarfs into my landscaping but I avoid the straight species and anything that i cannot easily monitor and/or treat as needed. I will not be putting in bigger species plants mainly due to trying to limit the number of HWA suspeptible plants in my locale.

Well I have good deep soil and a climate usually free from late freezes. Abies firma, Abies recurvata, and Abies pindrow are great. My bigger Abies firma is my 3rd fastest growing conifer after Metasequoia 'Ogon' and various large Cryptomerias like 'Radicans', 'Yoshino' etc. Abies albas are in a bad spot but growing just fine considering. All western firs die within a year or two, although my yard had a large Abies concolor years ago, it always looked sickly. Some Abies delavayi seedlings took longer to die, one lasted 4 years, but also couldn't resist the local root rot organisms.

I just measured using a pole of known length and a picture taken from a distance. My largest firma was <6' in spring 2010 when planted, and is now about 23' tall. So that's a growth rate avg. of roughly 20 inches a year. The other is probably 20'. They had circling roots when I bought them but fortunately they were unusually pliable so I unwound them. I even dug trenches beyond the initial hole to accommodate the roots, some were almost 4' long! No doubt if I had just taken the pot off, placed the root mass in the soil they would not nearly have done so well. Flares were slightly exposed of course. They are such satisfying trees. A deep, dark green all year...no dingy off color in winter.

Nice firs, davidrt, tho I somehow doubt they can deal w/late frosts here at my spot.

Oh no!!!! I have several dwarf blue spruce and lemonthread cypress! My poor babies, are they doomed to die prematurely?!!! Everything you mentioned is basically what you can easily find in nurseries around here! Sam_md, do you mind if I ask what you recommend for the Northeast?

Yes, Ben, it is a potential problem with Abies firma, and even more so with Abies pindrow. But the old Dilworth Nursery in Oxford, PA had a maybe 15-20' A. pindrow with a perfect conical shape so the issue can be overcome with proper management/pruning: they, unlike me, have no coastal influence. In their huge 2 acre field of many rare conifers it really stood out as subtropical looking. Such a tragedy that all of that was turned to mulch. I am infuriated I didn't come back with my digital camera and take some snaps in 2012, but I had no idea the nursery would soon be gone. That was one of the first specialist nurseries I'd driven to in the late 1990s, btw.

I don't really pay attention to them in recent years but my A. albas and my A. nordmanniana seem to sprout a little later.

I got a split leader at some point on that firma...my tree guy's longest snipping pole could still reach it to cut one off. The 'rhododendron dell' part of my garden you see here (that's an R. augustinii in front to the left) will always maintain vehicular access routes so that a boom truck can be brought in if a similar fix is needed years or decades down the road!

" Everything you mentioned is basically what you can easily find in nurseries around here! "

LOL - you begin to see why cranky old davidrt28 seems to frequently put down the American nursery industry. A lot of it anyhow.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Below see leyland cypress in Maryland. A fungal pathogen caused this death. The notion of clipping out the dead growth is simply not an option. This is an example of a subject for the Reject List. Don't plant Leyland Cypress.

In response to aak4 Lemon cypress in my OP is Cupressus macrocarpa 'Goldcrest' routinely sold here along with Italian Stone Pine and Elwoodi Cypress during the holidays along with poinsettia. IMO these are disposable plants to be tossed out when the holidays are over.

yeah that anyone on the east coast sells and/or plants Leylandii, is a travesty. Anywhere far south enough they will get canker etc., anywhere far north enough not to get canker, freeze damage in winter. I even saw some freeze damaged not far north of me in Lancaster Co. after Polar Vortex I & II. And anywhere they are prone to toppling in thunderstorms.

Fortunately, I'm seeing more Cryptomeria and fewer Leyland Cypress these days around here, as local landscapers seem to be coming around. However, the local nurseries and big box stores are still peddling the leylandii to the average homeowner...

Does Pinus peuce survive and grow well long term in Eastern US?

How does Korean Fir (Abies koreana) perform in the mid Atlantic region?

I should probably just keep my west coast nose out of this discussion but I routinely drive by a planting of some of the most handsome Leyland cypress you can imagine. When they do well, they are truly a majestic conifer. But they must do best in a UK-like climate, which is what we have. No significant pest or disease issues here to speak of.

We can also grow some pretty mean looking lemon lime cypresses as well :-) And not just for holiday decorations.

But I'm right there with you on the Colorado spruce. They are dogs here.

Colorado Spruce is like the crack of conifers. I’ve got four in the garden and I’m not sure how they got there.

Davidrt and sam, just a few yrs ago I saw several isolated Leylands that must've been planted in the early 70s when they first appeared in the trade here, and they looked undiseased and decent, tho a bit irregular (lost branches) and broader and not as tall as I would have expected. Where? Rose Hill Cemetery in Hagerstown, Md.

Gregg H, glad you dodged a bullet.

The list of diseases & insect pests for Austrian Pine is as long as your arm. Happily we don't see new ones planted around here but I noticed these two just this morning.

"How does Korean Fir (Abies koreana) perform in the mid Atlantic region?"

Korean fir does very well here in Georgia on the appropriate rootstock. It can even be grown on its own roots in the upper South, although elevation and/or the right microclimate are still very helpful.

Does anyone have problems with Austrian pine in Northern climate? I am in Toronto, Canada and see a lot of mature trees in my neighborhood. They may be not thriving, but reasonably healthy and certainly are not going to kick the bucket overnight. Planted a couple 5 years ago and they are doing well. Some of other pines , yes, I saw them disappearing on regular basis. What is wrong with Pinus nigra ?

AlexUnder, from what I understand, the further north in east N America you go, the less affected Euro or Asian hard pines are to needlecast and nematode blight.

Dean, thank you. Korean Fir does very well in the upper Midwest as well. The species is beautiful and I think it deserves more widespread use. I've got a seedling and Horstmann's Silberlocke, and I'd recommend the former if you had to choose one.

I don't think there are major problems with either Austrian or Scots Pine in my region. I will occasionally see a dead mature Scots Pine, but it's not an overwhelming problem -- yet.

Here's an interesting tidit about Port Orford Cedar. A Scottish nursery by the name of Lawson received seed in 1854 and the tree has since been known as Lawson Cypress. Today cultivar numbers approach 300. Can you name a conifer with more cvs? I can't. Phytophthora root disease is a grave threat to this species. Clearly a candidate for the reject list. I have never seen a specimen of a healthy, established PO Cedar. While nurseries in my area don't sell the plant, I see it show up in grocery stores & big boxes during the holidays. Buy all means buy the plant, treat it as a holiday decorative and discard it afterwards.

BTW cutting out the dead branches is not a solution. Can it be grafted onto a disease resistent understock? IDK. Does this result in a happy, healthy plant over the long haul? IDK.

With the exception of automatically eliminating several species due to hardiness issues you can copy this list right over to the midwest. Major issue is the humidity.

The thanks only full scale species I recommend for WI is Pinus cembra, Korean Pine, Picea omorika, Picea abies, Picea glauca and occasionally Abies concolor. Dwarf conifers on the other hand - try whatever pleases you.

Bob, surprised to see your comment on Scots and Austrian pine. I don’t get out that far west but in SE WI they are a disastrous option. Damn nurseries finally stopped growing and selling.

Sam, " Can it be grafted onto a disease resistent understock? "

Even in their own climate, this is done! There have been threads about it! Even in the PNW wholesalers are grafting Lawson Cypress cultivars onto 'disease resistant rootstocks' - which are just other cultivars of Lawson cypress! Apparently it hasn't occurred to anyone to graft on an Asian species that would grow well on the east coast like C. pisifera. It's too bad they haven't. I think I once saw one of these for sale at a fancy Delaware Valley nursery, but decided to pass on it. Cool looking plant. It's probably dead for whomever it was sold: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamaecyparis_lawsoniana#/media/File:Chamaecyparis_lawsoniana_imbricata_pendula_01.jpg

Whaas, I wouldn’t recommend either of them, but I have not seen widespread death in western WI or the Twin Cities area. I understand we may be on borrowed time, but I’m not totally convinced it’s all a lost cause.

On the other hand, I’ve been retired for 18 months, and I don’t travel throughout the upper midwest like I did when working, so maybe I’m behind the times on this one. Scots Pine is one of my very favorite trees, so I sure hope it can remain viable this far north.

To their credit Monrovia Nursery is promoting The Guardian® Series which includes 7 cvs of lawson cypress grafted on disease resistent understock. The following statement is worth noting: "This plant is currently not for sale. This page is preserved for informational use"

Yeah, I bought one of those "DR" Guardian® plants from Monrovia, and it promptly died. I've started treating my Lawson cypresses like my firs - if a nursery or grower cannot tell me the specific rootstock used, I don't buy. "DR" isn't good enough. If I was more of a pine guy, I'd do the same for those. Fortunately, P. abies works well as a rootstock here, so I don't have to worry (as much) about the spruces. :-)

It's not really to Monrovia's "credit" if they sell, outside the PNW, "disease resistant rootstocks" that are only disease resistant IN the PNW!

Making a list for the entire eastern seaboard seems to be casting a very wide net.

There are a couple of effects however:

1. Lots of trees aren't a problem until they reach some critical density. One purple leaf chokecherry isn't a problem. Using it as a boulevard tree through an entire neighbourhood is.

2. Every tree has something that eats it, some disease it gets.

I would suggest if you want to create a list like this, start over:

* Put the botanical name with it.

* Put the problem(s) it has with it.

* Put what conditions make the problem occur, or make it worse.

Long time posters may well remember the Hazel Smith sequoia @ Gotelli Collection of the Nat'l Arboretum. It was a beautiful form with blue foiage. I took this pic today of all that's left of it.

I'm hoping that this thread will discourage inexperienced collectors from my area, from buying plants like these only to be disappointed down the road.

Looks like a totem now. Based on that trunk, it got pretty big. I'm impressed it made it that long!

The State Arboretum of Virginia (Boyce, VA) has a very fine collection of unusual and non native conifers. Those of you from near that part of the world should have some commentary on the success of this range of species.

https://blandy.virginia.edu/

I have been truly awed...

VV, yup. They have some very big, outstanding firs and even Arizona cypresses, which I show below (both biggest trees in the center are Arizona cypresses -- I'd guess at least 80 ft tall for the taller one):

While a thread with one of my 'babies' is up, I will announce I am proud that one of my Abies firma is coning for the first time - the other one not pictured above:

This one is about 25' high although I will measure it more precisely if I have time...it a little thinner and more sparse than the other one, probably because it was planted in more shade. I fully expect to see seedlings soon. At one of the Abies groves at the National Arboretum, I saw seedlings in the woods. Their foliage looked like Abies firma, but was fragrant, implying to me they might have been hybrids like maybe A. firma X A. alba. *NO* labeled Abies firma I've ever seen anywhere in the world, had fragrant foliage. And it's the only fir I know of with that identifying trait. Although Abies chensiensis, probably the closest relative to A. firma, is pretty weak. My longer needled A. recurvata, also in the momi section, has normal fir fragrance as do all the other firs I currently have. (the A. chensiensis died when I attempted to graft on top of it!)

Here they were as rather pot bound 5' tall specimens at Triple Oaks Nursery in New Jersey, May 2010. Joe had them in some kind of 'air pots' that were planted in the very sandy soil there, on drip irrigation. Although the pots were like plastic baskets and not solid, the roots had still circled several times around the bottom edge. So, I unrolled them, and dug radial trenches, sometimes as long as 3', out from the edge of my planting hole. They were quite pliable so took to being straightened out without snapping. Well obviously they have both thrived.

Just passed by this one today. It's a blue form of R. Mountain Juniper, probably 'Wichita Blue' with some kind of a fungal blight. Definitely one for the reject list.

Some of the comments say that dwarfs are doing better, I wonder why?

Just caught up with this thread....I must say that Colorado Blue Spruce do very well here in Zone 5 Maine.

Colorado blue spruce also does very well here in northern NJ. I'll probably add abies homolepis in the list. I grew 3 from seed 2 years ago, they survived first winter but died last summer even when they were in the shade. Excessive NJ heat and humidity was likely the cause and these firs do not like the heat whatsoever. I knew that but wanted to give it a try. With global warming only getting worse, temps everywhere will probably be 10 degrees higher in the coming decades.

^ ^ ^ Which is a excellent indicator why Picea pungens/Colorado blue spruce do not fair well just about anywhere along the Atlantic coast. High summer heat and humidity make them excessively prone to fungal issues and needlecasts. Rarely kills them but makes them look terrible!!

1,

2.

3.

4.

and there we have it. Dw. Alberta Spruce. Likely the most popular of the dwarf conifers in the US. #1. is actually a nice looking row of these shrubs in a commercial setting. In my state #2,3,&4 is much more likely to be seen. When you couple the fact that Picea glauca is native to a much more northerly range, mostly Canada, plus when it gets hot & dry it is an absolute martyr to red spiders that's a problem. This is one more to put on the heaping pile I call the reject list.