This has little or nothing to do with floor framing and everything to do with workmanship. It is particularly unforgivable considering the many excellent tile spacing/setting systems that are available:

Subfloor preparation is always required. Laying mesh isn't floor prep. It is tiling prep. The subfloor needed to be measured (like you are doing with the level in the photos) and then flattened/leveled with self leveling cement. This would be paid for by you, the homeowner. This would be quoted as part of the job by the professional TILE installer (not a general contractor...they don't normally install tiles).

My first question is: Did your job quote/contract CLEARLY state 'Subfloor Prep'? And did that line have a RANGE such as $1-$4/sf? What did you end up PAYING for subfloor prep? The reason I ask is this: if you didn't pay for you then you (very sad to say) 'got what you paid for'.

I'm sorry this has happened. Your installer isn't a tile setter. And I'm going to guess the contractor didn't level the floor. And the tiles were installed WITHOUT a 'leveling system'.

Do you have any 'in progress' photos? And have you checked the level of warp the tiles have? It's pretty easy to do...simply put two tiles facing each other (shiny sides together) and stand them up. You then see how much the edges warp away from each other. Take photos of this if you can.

any tiles that large really do require the use of a setting system - those things are magical and can give you an amazing finish.

Grout NEVER solves anything with leveling - that's a crapola answer.

"During installation we brought up the issue with the contractor and he informed us that the grout would make this go away."

Yeah, that never works. He was hoping that it would which is a very bad sign.

So my mistake was not to get an itemized quote or sign a contract clearly outlining my expectations but I didn't think I needed to tell the tile installer to level the floor if needed. I'm not familiar with the process for installing tiles hence why I hired someone. The way I see it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but if you don't say something before you start doing the work then don't blame it on that once your finished. And worst off when we brought it up through the progress he told us grout would solve the issue. He never once brought up the floor joist being an issue till once the job was done and I asked for it to be fixed.

When hiring the guy I was very clear that the most important thing to me was that all the tiles were level and we discussed this a number of times before hiring him. @SJ McCarthy the installer did in fact use a leveling system. He was suppose to use the red wedges but when he showed up he was using these yellow wedges that are much thinner, see the photos below and not the normal red ones. He told me they where just as good. We brought through the process that we did not think he was using enough but he disagreed. After a few days he swapped over to the red ones and those tiles are much better but not perfect.

Uhhhhmmmmm....What is UNDERNEATH the wire??? Is that chip board/OSB? Did you see ANY 'leveling' product used BEFORE the wire went down? I'm seeing big chunks of subfloor missing UNDERNEATH the wire...which tells me there is something amiss with this surface.

Why wasn't the subfloor condition not discussed? I know you didn't know to ask about it, but I would ask HIM why, as the PROFESSIONAL he did not stop to talk to YOU about it (and thereby revise his quote)?

You can help us figure this out by telling us:

1. Total square footage of the project

2. Total cost of the project (after all the bills were paid)

3. Cost of the tile (I'm assuming you purchased it and brought it to the house)

We can figure out the labour costs and the prep costs from there. Industry averages are easily used to figure out whether or not you paid for something and DID NOT get it (which is fraud) or the worst (or best case...depends on your point of view) case scenario which means you did not pay for it nor did you get it.

In other words we can figure out what is missing and whether or not you paid for it.

Oh god, is that galvanized lath attached directly to particle board?

Judging by the OP's disappearance I think we're correct Joe, SJ & Scylla. All on the "tile setter"............................

Oh god, is that galvanized lath attached directly to particle board?

Even for regular format tiles (stone or ceramic), I install a layer of 1/2" ply and a crack isolation underlayment. Lippage is only the first defect.

Hopefully, some people read these threads before they employ the low bidder.

There is no way that leveling system was used and got that result.

Such beautiful tile. What a shame. We had a floor installed on our porch that looked as bad, maybe worse than yours. The installers (recommended by the stone company rep) didn’t know what they were doing and we thought they did. It was a total tear out. Hired someone else. It’s perfect. One of those live and learn things but painful.

Poor workmanship. I had a tiler remove 6 big tiles because of this issue. He was not very happy, but he managed to get it right afterwards.

Any homeowners reading along, lets correct some misinformation on this thread for posterity

A. Lippage tuning and leveling are 2 different things altogether. Clips do not level they hold tiles in place ." Lippage tuning"

B. Leveling happens before tiles get installed.

C. You can indeed get a flat "Lippage free floor" that is level or not.

D. The industry standard is to get floors FLAT (planed) within 1/8" over 10FT before any tile gets installed.

E Lastly there are 2 types OSB approved for tile installations and many levelers that require lath.

Likely will fall on deaf ears to some here but for those that want to get it right there ya go.

Excessive lippage is almost always due to poor installation which does include preping the floor correctly.

And totally aside from the issue of crappy, unworkmanlike installation, tiles that large could have bowing or warpage that even a leveling system can’t completely correct.

I just wanted to offer my sympathies to the OP. We all do the best we can to educate ourselves before hiring out work, but most of the time we are hiring the work out because we want a professional installation by someone more knowledgeable and experienced than ourselves. It is not always clear what is and is not missing from a contract and it is so disappointing to see so many people on this forum experiencing the disappointment and potential cost of a bad install. The OP's tile selection is really pretty and I hope some resolution can be reached.

pricklypearcactus-

I agree this is a difficult area. Tiling is one of the more precision and unforgiving trades. There are many people doing tile work that just aren’t up to it, and you find that out after the work is in place and can’t be fixed without an expensive and frustrating tearout.

And if you think this looks bad now, wait until the high spots start getting traffic.

Hello guys, thanks for all the comments and advice. I was able to convince the installer to give me a refund and have hired a guy to fix it. The new installer only does tile, has 20 years experience and multiple references. It is disappointing that it put the project way behind but now it will be done right. The new installer was booking three months out.

Anyone booking three months out isn't charging enough.

We have a tile install just finishing at our house. Its about 600 sq feet. 12x24 tiles. we knew there was some tile warpage so I asked for 30% off set but the installer insisted 50% would be better. We asked if we sould supply floor leveler (we have never used it and would have supplied it to provide a better finish) as we knew there were a few spots where we thought it was needed. The installer insisted it wasn't necessary and would cost a fortune. He said using ditra would help...I still have't figured that out. We asked why spacers and levelers weren't used and were told it wasn't needed. Our grout lines aren't consistent but they look straight and I picked grout to match the tile so it will be forgiving but still...I expcted more and I'm not fussy - I totally understand that sometimes perfection can't be attained. He's working while we're at work and gone by the time we're home. His rate wasn't the lowest by far and only a couplehundred off the higest. With 30 years experience advertised we expected a professional install. I'm just hoping I don't spend the next 25 years frusterated with it. I just don't have the budget or time to do a full tear out and re-install. It has definitely impacted my trust in professionals.

My first question is: Is this a tiling PROFESSIONAL? As in, ONLY does tile for 30 years? Tile setters rarely have more than 20-25 years of work in their 'knees'. At that point, around about 55, they start having to have surgery to correct the damage their trade has done to them.

A General Contractor who does everything, will often have 30+ years in the business because they do not do ALL the work. They do some, but often they will put themselves on the side lines and manage the jobs. They are 100% RESPONSIBLE for ANY WORK produced by their subcontractors/employees. If the installation is wrong (goes against any/all installation requirements) you have every right to require a redo. Every right.

Tile setters are NOTORIOUSLY expensive to hire for these GC firms. For that reason, many GCs prefer to do the tile work themselves. It saves them HUGE amounts of money. As in the ENTIRE mark-up for the job. In my neck of the woods, a large format tile (which you have) has an labour cost of $12 - $15 per square foot. Materials are extra. In my area, your 600sf would be $7,200-$9,000 just for the labour. Feel free to check that against your contract.

Do you have photos? Some of the old world guys will still float their surfaces before installing tiles. The rest do Self Leveling Concrete (SLC). To do that, you need to rough up the concrete a snick and then clean it (really well) and then you can add the SLC. That takes time = $$ and that takes effort = $$ and it takes materials = $.

I've seen concrete slabs require $5/sf of preparation. That is worse case scenario...but still. I always tell my clients to budget $2-$5/sf for concrete slab. For 600sf I would have told you to sock away $3,000 JUST for the slab prep. If you use it, fine. If you do NOT use all $3,000 then you are in LUCK!

Long and short of it, The 50% off-set is wrong (unless the tile specifically states it is allowed). You were correct with the 30% stagger/offset. You were correct with the leveling system/spacers.

The place to find your smoking gun: The INSTALLATION instructions for your tile. That will have them 'dead to rights'. A full redo can be negotiated...or a BIG chunk of money given back and the two of you part ways.

I'm a realist and I'm practical and I'm very motivated by budget. If I have an OK tile install AND I have $$$ money in the bank because I've gotten a decent refund (like all the cost of labour returned to me), then I'm grabbing the cash and making a dash for the bank!

But that's just me. Try to load some photos. While you wait for 5 minutes for the photos to load (need them in jpg) you can search the internet for your tile install instructions. If you can't find them, give us the name of the materials you used. We'll dig them out. Flooring pros know where the manufacturers hide them (sometimes it takes 12 different links to get to ONE set of instructions...they do this on purpose).

I'm sorry this is happening. I hope you can negotiate a BIG fat refund. If this is a GC, it will teach him to bite the bullet and hire a tiling pro for jobs like this one. Sigh.

I'm the the GC on this job, and thought I had done due diligence researching the parties brought in for each part of the job. Our carpenters dealing with some exactaing trim issues were phenomenal.

The individual doing our floor only does tile work. He's semi retired after working for flooring for years. And now works for him self so he can self-pace the jobs. I had 3 quotes from tile only specialists and rates in our area came in between $4000-5000 for labour. It was consistent with predictions from some GC's I know as you get what you pay for and wanted to know be sure that pricing was accurate for our area. I've never believed in finding the cheapest option.

I popped home at lunch and grouted up it looks lovely. I picked a match that is perfection for the tile. It does a fantastic job blending out some inconsistencies. And there is some crowning in the tiles so I know some variation is inherant in the materials, and not the fault of the installer. With the construction boom in our area getting skilled labour is a challenge at best. I can live with it but I really wish I insisted on what I knew was right, like the 30% split and leveler. My husband is always reminding me to let professionals be professionals without questining them so much about industry standards and codes when I haven't done that type of work only researched the process and expectations extensively. In our small area a refund of any kind is unlikely.