If you read the installation instructions for your flooring product, they should indicate that the subfloor should be leveled to within a certain measurement before installation. Your variation almost certainly exceeds that measurement.

Thank you Is this something that can be fixed? I have yet to pay for the installation

Also is the uneven floors causing the planks to not be flushed? I’m meeting with installers tomorrow to discuss. They have been telling me that the lifts at the end of the plank are normal

The uneven subfloor will cause lippage. It can also, be caused from millwork. Was subfloor flattening included in your contract? If not, then cost will come out of your pocket.

Without investigating it onsite I would bet your subfloor is not completely level. The 2nd picture really looks like a dip in the subfloor.

Thank you. The contract included minor leveling only. My father had taken a straight edge to the floors after the epoxy was laid and all was good. I think at this point there is no way of knowing for sure and we just have to eat the mistake. Remodeling is so difficult for people like me who do not know what questions to ask. I wish the contractor would have let me know ahead of time if there were any problems.

How long was the straight edge used for inspection and what type: wood or metal? There could be errors with the inspection tool.

metal and 8ft

When you say 'minor' leveling, how much did you pay for the TOTAL install? Did you use underlayment/pad? What is the subfloor?

Can you list the wood floor you purchased? Can you look through the remaining planks to see if there are any issues with 'square' or thickness differences? You should have at least one box left over for future repairs.

Can you load photos of work in progress or the subfloors? How about the box it came in?

we paid 6700 for the install of 1200 square feet. that 6700 included a small stair case. I purchased DM Flooring Craftsman in Belvedere. size is 9.5 and 5/8 thick, 4mm wear. No boxes left over they actually needed to get an extra box. Im assuming that they may have made more errors than expected. I was charged for the extra box they needed to purchase too. Let me look for pictures. ill upload soon

8 ft straight edge is too short for floor flatness inspection. The straight edge needs to be a minimum 10 ft. long. The additional 2 feet is a difference maker. A 10 ft. straight edge will give you the maximum variance allowed 3 /16". For a flatter surface use a 12 ft. straight edge. Of course take in account for the room dimension. A average size room is 12x13. The longer length would make it difficult to maneuver around.

OK...that averages $5.58/sf. Does that INCLUDE the installation labour? If it does, that is a very low price for a 9.5" wide plank. Labour normally costs $2-$3/sf. That means the cost of the wood = $2.58/sf??? Am I correct?

Hmmmmmm.....that's super low.

Check out the Installation instructions:

DM-Engineered-Hardwood-Flooring-Installation-Instruction-2019-updated.pdf (dm-flooring.com)

Oh Dear....check this out!!!!

"NOTE: Nailing planks wider than 7.5” without a full spread adhesive will void all warranties. Nail down installation is not recommended."

I have a feeling they did NOT use glue!!! The cost of the project does not appear to include glue. Glue/full spread adhesive often adds $1-$2/sf for installation. The cost of the project doesn't seem to have that built in.

Please clarify your installation. Did they use GLUE???

We glued them down with bostiik.the cost of labor and glue was 6700 The wood floor themselves were 10k total almost 17k

I’m trying to upload the pics but am having som difficulties for some reason Will continue to try

They need to be in a jpg format and you need to allow each photo to load completely before doing anything else. When Houzz gets slow it can take several minutes to upload a single photo.

Hard to say without seeing both ends of the straightedge. It looks like you may be using it wrong. It should sit so both ends contact the floor and the dip in between can be measured, not like the boom on a crane where one end is in a low spot and the other sticks up in the air.

That said, architectural specification often call for a maximum variation to be 1/8" or 3/16" in 10 feet.

https://www.houzz.com/hznb/photos/marnae-s-ideas-phvw-vp~168085982

Here are some pics of when my dad used the straight edge I’m thinking the straight edge must be the right size. My dad is a contractor so in these pics it should be used correctly.

I am not a flooring expert like the people who have been posting comments. I just wanted to add that I just had a lot of engineered wood flooring installed the week before Christmas. While I did not install flooring from the same manufacturer as yours, the specs you‘ve provided are exactly the same - 9.5“ wide, 5/8” thick, and 4 mm wear.

I do not have the “lift“ at the ends of the boards that you’re having - so - doesn’t appear to be “normal” as your installer is telling you. I’m not saying that there is absolutely ZERO difference between the heights where boards meet at ends because I don’t have a way to measure them EXACTLY - but I haven’t noticed any difference while walking on them - and I tend to be a little OCD about things like that.

I actually just felt the ends of some of the boards in my bedroom (I had surgery and am stuck in bed right now) - and I don’t feel what I would label a “lift” between them.

I have noticed a few places where it seems like the boards could have been a bit closer together at the ends - not many but a few I assume that’s to be expected to a certain extent (I may be wrong - pls correct me if I am!).

I hope that there is a way to resolve this issue that doesn’t include ripping everything out and requiring all new flooring materials. This would be a big expense to incur twice - and my costs were lower than yours! Fingers crossed . . .

thank you. I met with them today and they keep telling me that the lifting or lippage as im hearing it is called is normal. Not sure what to do at this point.

Im sorry if I am obsessing but I paid a lot of money for quality wood and I am just not satisfied. From the professionals out there, am I being too critical? Is the lippage that you see normal? I dont like the fact that I can see it and feel it as I am walking over the floor. Is there anything that they can do to fix this issue?

Don‘t feel bad about “obsessing” - it’s a lot of money! The good news is that you haven’t already paid the money - I’m an attorney - and was happy when I read that you hadn’t paid the installers. I’ve been “stalking” this forum for several months - there are so many professionals on here that I would be surprised if you don’t receive several helpful comments. It’s 5:16 p.m. central time - I assume that many professionals aren’t able to comment until after their work day has ended.

thank you. do you think I have a case here? I cant afford to make a complaint and lose. I would hate to have to go that route because they are nice people. I just want them to understand that it needs to be fixed.

If, your variance measures 3/16" or less over 10 ft. span. It is acceptable by NWFA standards. For 8 ft. span the tolerance would be less, figure 5/32". You would need to contact the manufacturer for the tolerance of "lippage" (over/underwood) allowed. I know a small amount like 1/64 is allowed.

thank you

Measure the variance - then we can discuss whether you have a claim.

Do the floors feel solid? Or do they move when you step on them? Have you looked at the walls to see if they left the 1/2" expansion gap at the wall?

The installation instructions clearly state that the subfloor variance is 1/8" with an 6 ft level or 3/16" with 8ft level. Have a look at the installation instructions:

"Subfloor Conditions"

"Flat to 3/16” per 8’ radius or 1/8” per 6’ radius. If a sub-floor prep work is required, “hills” should be sanded down and the “valleys” filled with an underlayment patch. Subfloor irregularities and undulations may cause any wood flooring installation to develop hollow spots between the flooring and sub-floor. These hollow spots are NOT the result of any wood flooring manufacturing defect and are NOT covered under warranty."

If in doubt, feel free to hire an NWFA Certified Wood Flooring Inspector

www.nwfa.org

It can cost $500 - $1200 for the inspection (depends on how much wood they have to inspect). Your square footage would probably run in the $950 range.

They don’t seem to move except for the ones on the stair landing. Someone told me to bounce a golf ball on the planks and if they sound hollow then there is a problem. I tested half of my planks and at least 1/3 of them were hollow. Is this a installation problem a d what does it mean? Can I request they fix it? I’m so frustrated! To top this off they brought in two new boxes and installed them. I didn’t think to check if they were from the same lot number. I assumed they would since they made it a point for me to wait an extra week so that they could get all flooring from same batch. Guess what? The colors are off. the new batch has a lot of red in it. the batch i chose is blonde and some hints of grey.

Again, you can see what the manufacturer says about this issue (you can read this yourself in this link...which I'm providing for the second time):

DM-Engineered-Hardwood-Flooring-Installation-Instruction-2019-updated.pdf (dm-flooring.com)

"Flat to 3/16” per 8’ radius or 1/8” per 6’ radius. If a sub-floor prep work is required, “hills” should be sanded down and the “valleys” filled with an underlayment patch. Subfloor irregularities and undulations may cause any wood flooring installation to develop hollow spots between the flooring and sub-floor. These hollow spots are NOT the result of any wood flooring manufacturing defect and are NOT covered under warranty.

Please read the installation instructions listed above (green print). It clearly states how this happens (improper subfloor prep). It is to stop homeowners from blaming the product when in fact it is improper installation technique.

To be blunt, everything you are concerned about come from 'installer error'. Whew. I said it. Improper measuring = human installer error.

Improper subfloor prep = human error (lazy...underpaid...didn't read the instructions)

Installing two different colours = human error (installer and homeowner...sorry but that's how it works).

*Installing defective planks (*possibly). I can see a plank in your photos that has a split in the short edge!

Why did they install a split plank? Because they DID NOT ORDER enough product because they did not MEASURE properly.

All of this is human installation error. Look to the HUMANS who measured, prepped, installed and failed to CULL the improper planks.

How can you get this in writing? Pay for the floors to be inspected by the NWFA pro www.nwfa.org

Thank you

Are your floors glued down or floated with edge glue? Nevermind, seen it in previous post.

The manufacturer allows quite a bit of variance maximum 3/16" over 8' rad. Measure the variance, it is probably acceptable even though it does not pass the eye test.

If, it is out of tolerance. It can be due to the surface prep. Base on your photo, it looks like they used a hand held 7" grinder. These smaller grinders can create a lot of waves if, not careful. You can easily gouge the slab if, the machine leans to one side too much. You have to keep the machine as flat as possible and work a circular grinding motion or loops. Factor in fatigue for a 1200 square feet job working a 20-30 lb machine by hand. Errors are bound to be made.

You also, mentioned your father confirmed flatness after grinding.

If, the subfloor is within tolerance. It is possible the installer used excessive adhesive causing slightly higher spots. This would cause glue to squeeze through the joints in high spot areas. If, the floor was not rolled flat, then it would maintain the uneven installation. Causing the flatness to be out of tolerance.

Another cause would be, the adhesive dried up in that area. Rather than, scraping and removing the bad adhesive. The installer applied new adhesive over the old creating a high spot, causing the flatness to be out of tolerance.

A certified NWFA inspector will be your best bet to help resolve this issue. They will need to confirm floor prep, proper adhesive coverage and installation.

I will also add, debris trapped in the adhesive will cause high spots and irregularities in the flatness. Those areas would be hollow.

Thank you. That is what my father mentioned when he observed them laying the floor. They laid a large area of glue at one time and he personally thought they used way too much glue. They didnt use any weight.

I appreciate everyones help!!!!!

Let me know what happens- it appears that you’ve received some great information and advice. I told you to relax yesterday and wait for people to get home from work! I know that your issue isn’t solved - but - your question has been answered about (i) whether this lift/lippage is normal, and (ii) what your next step should be.

What the pros here arent telling you is click together long wide boards move a lot and can cause the issues you are having even glues down. If there is a bent board it will not adhere flat no matter how flat the subfloor is. These wide long boards create a lot of issues but have the look everyone loves. Look at how older floors that were never an issue and that is because they were nailed down and 2"+ wide and real tongue and groove.

Read the tech sheets they have so many ways out of a warranty its useless to even have one.

We continue to find ways to get the "Look" without the cost and unfortunately it has consequences.

Also a person using a level and tape measure can come up with two very different measurements depending on a lot of variables. I don't know of any installers using a 12' level but i am sure they are out there. Although I do not believe in the end when working with a natural product like wood it would make that much of a difference.

The dips wouldn't bother me so much as a lifted or hollow spot. Good thing is its a engineered wood floor vs vinyl and that means there are repairs that can easily be made. From injecting adhesive to replacing and gluing down a new board.

Call a flooring repair expert and have them give you an honest opinion on what is realistic vs everyone regurgitating a technical manual.

There is no such thing as a floor besides ceramic or concrete that doesn't make noise or move underfoot.

Dont get crazy its a floor and it will continue to move and show damages. That is why older floors were thick enough to sand and refinish.

Thank you. I really appreciate your reply