Matt - What should have added is that there is a window where you have the stove. We looked at putting the stove in front of the window which we’re not opposed to, however, the stove is 6” higher than the window and would require that we raise the bottom of the window. I was concerned it would look funny from the outside as we are in a traditional colonial where all of our windows are the same size. Thoughts?

When the wall comes down, will there need to be a beam? If so, how tall will it be? A beam will delineate two spaces so you will probably want to keep kitchen stuff on one side of it.

If the beam situation allows, go with an L layout, with the stove centered between the two windows. That will keep you from having to cross the room with pots and pans and ingredients. The table or island could then move closer to the stairs.

Put the dishwasher between sink and fridge so it is out of the prep area. That will mean sacrifing the 16" pantry, but if your lower cabinets are all drawers (other than the sink and trash/recycling) you may still have enough storage without it.

I was thinking that you would either remove the window completely, or alternatively, paint the window black inside and drywall over it so that from the outside it still appears to be a window, but on the inside it is drywall. But much of this probably depends upon the siding of your house (is it brick on all sides?) and how easy it would be to match that. (And it's also easy for me to solve kitchen layout problems by just magically spending your money removing windows when making a floor plan. ;-)

And here's another alternative idea if others in your family are not on board with the island. If you're going to have the table be the centerpiece of the kitchen, why not go all in and treat the entire room as one big combined space.

In your original floor plan, the dining table is awkwardly straddling a kitchen area at top — where it's jammed in between counter runs on both the left and right side, limiting its width — and then floating in a much more open dining area at the bottom.

Here, I've moved the stove to the right side, centering it between the windows, and extended the cabinets the full length of the wall, with a built-in hutch capping it off on the bottom side (or you could do a coffee station down there instead).

This gives you far more usable counter-space between the sink and the stove, and enables you to have a wider dining table that is the star of the room with much more space around it. You could also then eliminate upper cabinets across the entire right wall (except for the the hutch at the bottom).

I will say this wouldn't be my first choice if this is the only dining area in your house — I like to have some separation between the dining area and the mess that results when I cook — but I know some people feel far less strongly about that. It also does possibly extend the work triangle further than it should by making it a bit of a hike from fridge to sink to stove, and that may get annoying after a while.

Also, in minor details, where are you putting the trash can? I'd recommend using the 18" cabinet to the right of the sink for a trash/recycling pullout if you were not already planning to do so.

I like @Matt E. 's suggestion very much. The one change I'd make, at first glance, is to move the stove up next to the 3-drawer cabinet, rather than centered on the windows. It makes the work triangle a bit smaller, and it's nice to be able to look out the window while cooking.

You could also have storage on the wall opposite the range:

I would do @Matt E.'s layout, except I would flip the island so the long edge faces the range. You would need to move the window, which I know is a little complicated since your house is brick, but I see on your plan that you are already planning to remove a door and frame in a window so there will already be exterior work to be done. No idea why the contractor said you don't have room for an island, especially with no cabinetry (or just shallow cabs) on the staircase wall. With the long side facing the range you have 48" or more aisles depending on island depth - that is more than adequate.

Thanks all! I like the idea of moving the DW to the left of the sink. I definitely don’t want to remove a window. In fact if I had the money I’d a whole bank of windows! So I think that means we have to keep the stove on the other side of the kitchen.

The MCM hutch is 58” and the sideboard is 60. I could forego the sideboard but the hutch was my grandma’s and I don’t have any other place for it except in this part of the house.

Here are a few pics that might help.

Please don't cover or move a window. Much of the architectural charm and cohesion of your house comes from the symmetrical window arrangement.

And the furniture.

Isaac - I totally agree. I would never move or get rid of a window.

This is why I think we have to put the stove on the short wall where the original drawing shows it.

If the range must remain against the stairs, IMO it will be important to have an island facing the range so you have plenty of landing space when you take things out of the oven. Would something like this work? Not sure if you have room for the fridge as shown:

If the fridge won't fit as shown, you could leave it where it is (although that makes your work triangle a bit cramped - you'd likely end up doing all of your prep on the island), or do something like this (not sure the hutch would fit as shown, depends on depth):

I like some combo of Matt’s suggestions and mamagoose’s suggestion. As you’ve agreed, the dishwasher should be to left of sink. And I currently have my range between 24 inches of counter on each side. It’s not enough. 18 inches on each side is definitely not enough, especially where you have other options—don’t do that.

Both of those plans have less-than-optimal locations for the fridge, IMO, just to keep the range on a wall with very little landing space available. (Post before Muriel's.)

OP, is there a reason you don't want to put the range between the two windows? It seems that if you're doing a statement piece like a vintage range, it would make a lovely focal point from the front entry. Or do you not want the kitchen to be visible from the front entry?

Great to know Muriel. I think we should move the stove all the way to the right of where it is in the initial drawing. This would give us 36” on one side of the stove. The stove is pretty and the focal point so it may be ok that the one side is not in a cabinet

Another option an architect gave us was to put the stove in the corner - where the lazy Susan is now. I didn’t love that because of the amount of footprint it takes up. What do you guys think?

The range on an angle in the corner? Or flat against the back wall?

That would put it too close to the sink--barely any prep space between them.

BTW, what kind of hood are you planning to use?

At an angle. Also wanted to say I’m intrigued by the idea of having the hutch more in the kitchen. Kind of like that.

The more I think about it the better the corner stove option sounds. I really wanted a coffee station on the the staircase wall and this would allow me to do that.

Putting the range at an angle would definitely make a statement, but it would take up a TON of room. It would also prevent you from centering the sink on either window. Would an island sink work for you?

Mama goose - I wish there were two windows on that wall - but it’s only one window right in the middle of the run. We looked at putting the stove in front of the window but the window is lower than the stove and would require us to raise the window at least 6”. I think it will look odd from the exterior as we have a traditional brick colonial and all the windows are exactly the same. That side of the house is very visible from the street and also along the driveway.

Draw a careful, measured sketch on graph paper, accounting for clearances to allow for adjacent cabinet drawers to open, before you decide to put the range in a corner. It will eat up more space than you might think.

How wide is the range - 36"? 40"?

Is the existing hood vented outside?

You need at least 12" of landing space to one side of the range, and 15" to the other, per http://starcraftcustombuilders.com/kitchen.design.rules.htm

Bio - We currently have a wall oven at that same angle in the corner and it works ok with the sink.

I’m glad I’m not the only one stumped on how to make this stupid kitchen work! 😂

Here's a dirty mockup of the range angled in the corner. Wouldn't be my first choice...

ETA: @louislinus - having the wall oven in the corner (also not optimal IMO!) is definitely not the same as having the range there. The range is 37" wide, for starters - MUCH larger than your wall oven (which looks to be no more than 24" wide?). It will stick out WAY farther and there will be no way for a person to stand in front of it while another person stands in front of the window. Also, the space between sink and range is prime prep area - you'd have virtually none there if you tried to have the sink at either window with the range angled.

Isaac - I will do that. I hired an architect who did this quick hand drawn sketch.

@louislinus, that looks like a 24" oven cabinet. A 36" or wider range at an angle is another matter, and would leave no prep space (or even landing space) between sink and range.

I can’t tell you how much I appreciate this!! It’s so super helpful. I’ve had 3 contractors, an architect, and a designer all look at my kitchen over the last year and you all have done better than all of them combined.

Can I put the stove to the left of the window on the long wall? I don’t think I’ll have room for that but just a thought.

Maybe I should put the stove where the current range is? Stove To the left of the sink, keep the DW where it is, fridge to the left of the window on the long wall?

The fridge is ugly IMO so that’s why I initially had it in that far corner where you can’t see it well from the eating space.

I don’t want anything in the island as I’m hoping to get more of a work table like this

What Isaac said. Aside from the space component, comparing how you use a corner oven is not similar to how you use a range or cooktop. You don’t need to continually stand in front of an oven, and move ingredients in and out of the oven frequently. It’s not a good comparison.

Great points on the corner stove. I will scrap that idea.

In the architect’s drawing, the corner becomes a real pinch point. You’d have to move foods past the stove to stand there to prep because there is no functional prep space near the sink. So then you have traffic going back and forth in front of the range and a person working at the range is going to be bumping into someone at the sink. It’s workable, but not a good option for a large kitchen that has the space you have. I think you’ve been scared into believing you don’t have a lot of space. You have a large space, reasonably spaced windows, not a lot of traffic flow. It appears to me there is a lot you can do here.

I think I'm confused--you said you are removing a wall, and Matt drew the range between the two windows--one window in the kitchen and the other window in the existing DR (I think). That's the location to which I was referring.

Ohhhh those windows! Yes you are correct. Sorry. Again I’m having a hard time visualizing kitchen things in my now dining room. Duh sorry!

How about moving the sink to the other wall under that window? I know that’s costly but then we could do refrigerator on the far left on the run, then stove under the window (where the sink is now. That window is shorter and the stove will fit well under there.) Sink and DW on the outside wall.

I think the sticking point may be the assumption that the sink goes under a window. Let's relax that assumption and see what we get.

For example, you could put a 30" cabinet where you have the pantry; then the range to the right of it; then a long stretch of base cabinets / prep area. The fridge could go at the kitchen/dining room dividing line (or against that wall, if you keep the wall). The sink could go to the left of the window on the long wall, with the dishwasher between sink and fridge.

Putting the range in front of a window (even a shorter one) comes with a whole host of issues (code, cleaning, etc.). I wouldn't do it unless there is no other option. As for putting the range between the two side windows, so that it effectively straddles the kitchen and dining room, that is possible but I'm not sure I would want my range so close to my eating area. Here's a mockup (obviously island size/shape and location of furnishings could change):

Under the existing DR window, the sink and dishes would then be the focal point from the entry. I'd take that option, though, if it improved function, but I don't think the fridge should be between the only sink and range. Fridge should be on the edge of the kitchen where others can access it without entering the work zones, which is why I didn't like one of the plans above.

This might be too modern with the island, but you could get the range to the right of the kitchen window. MCM furniture would be on the bottom wall (bold lines).

ETA, I forgot to address the white line at the top--that represents the cabinets being pulled out to match the depth of a standard fridge box (rather than counter depth), which would increase counter space, but would necessitate a deeper hood. The hood is also 6" wider than the range, to help capture the grease and steam plume, since there would be no upper cabinet to the left. Optional seating on the island, or a second row of cabinets. Also added coffee station to left of fridge.

Thanks everyone for the help! I spent a long time playing with the IKEA kitchen planner (not using ikea cupboards but find it easy to use) and think this is what we’re going to do.

Moved the stove and sink. Contractor says we can do stove with sink above it and it is to code here. He said he’s done a bunch. The window there is higher so it won’t interfere with the stove. Decided on a 48x30 island/work table and a round 60” dining table seems to fit best. I got rid of the coffee station and will only have the hutch on that wall. I have a little loveseat and table that I have also wanted to add for some soft seating and think I got that to fit too.

My big question now is what to do with upper cabinets. Seems like I have to do all uppers or no uppers or it looks weird. I think I could get away with none except I really need that pantry/dry good storage next to the refrigerator which then leads to cabs over the fridge and it seems kind of strange to have them end there.

What do you think?

Clearances around the round table look a little tight, but that may be one of those things you will adjust as you actually live in the new space. As far as the kitchen goes, if you don't want uppers everywhere, maybe just do a tall pantry next to the fridge, an over-fridge cabinet and then a panel to finish off that section, then just another pair of uppers flanking the sink (so that you have convenient storage near the DW? That seems like it would look balanced and give you a decent compromise between openness and storage.

I think this plan is significantly subpar as compared to some of the options offered above. It appears you’re sacrificing function, and clearance around your dining table, to have a loveseat. It doesn’t make good sense to me.

As for your uppers, I like storage. I’d run uppers around the perimeter, except to the right of the sink. I’d put art there or consider open shelving to help keep that area open to the dining area.

You’ve stated repeatedly that you’re having a difficult time envisioning the new space as one open space. It seems you’re simultaneously expecting both too much and too little of the new space. It probably shouldn’t be trying to be a den in addition to a kitchen and dining room. It probably could be a better functioning kitchen, though, if you’d push that further. Good luck with it, and I look forward to updates as you proceed.

Thanks Muriel. I’ll definitely noodle on that. I’m not too worried about storage as we will also have a butler pantry and a walk in pantry. (And we also already have a large mud room right off the kitchen). I agree with you though that I am trying to make this be the room that fulfills all my wants and desires 😂.

As far as clearances there is 4’ around the table and 4’ around the island. Do you think I need more?

Matt E! Thank you for awesome layout. I like where you put the stove. For some reason I got really hooked on it being in the middle of that run. Also super helpful how you’ve labeled what goes in all the cupboards and drawers. Gives me a lot of clarity on what I should be thinking about.

Really appreciate all the time.

Late to this discussion, but I love Matt E’s layout from Feb 17, the one with the table in the middle and stove between the existing windows. Was there a problem with that design?

Yes it’s a really good plan but the peninsula with sink doesn’t work for us. We are a messy people 😂 and undoubtedly the sink will be filled with dishes and I’ll be staring at it while trying to eat and it will stress me out. My best friend has a similar layout and she and I are basically the same person and it drives her nuts. I really want to keep the sink, stove and refrigerator on the walls and keep the island just a working table. It’s an awesome layout though and definitely makes the most sense and provides the most storage. It’s just not a good solution for us messy cooks.

I think I’m going to go with the sink on the long wall, and the stove to the right of the other window. Seems like that might make the most sense. Still noodling.

Sorry, not the peninsula plan. I meant this one.

Ok guys you were all so helpful before. What do you think of the new layout? We ended up moving the stove back to its own wall and putting larger (24”) counters and cabinets on either side. I may splurge and do a stove alcove type thing. Waiting on pricing to see what if it’s feasible.

I am coming to terms with having to get rid of my dining room furniture. 😬😂 I am still hopeful that, while I may have to get rid of my pink velvet loveseat I bought just for this - I hope I can find a place for at least a larger comfy chair. I really want some soft seating for Sunday coffee and newspaper.

I don’t want anything in the island and would prefer it to be more of a work table with an open bottom. I know that I would get a better layout if I would budge on that but I won’t. So knowing that the island is off limits for storage and fixtures how does this look? What am I missing? (Note that the island is not to scale. I had to add it in with my iphone. There will be at least 42” - in most places 48” around the island. Only two small stools that will fit under the island.)

I would turn the island 90⁰ in this layout so the long side is parallel with the range.

Thank you! I was wondering about that.