id agree with you gal.. except the guy with 9 posts will roast me like chicken on the grill ... so whats the use ... lol ... probably put too much pepper on me .. i dont like pepper.. it gives me indigestion .. but thats probably TMI ...

never forget.. free info is worth what you pay for it ... no refunds ....

ken

Some people just like to whine and complain because they want everything to be their way.

when they don’t make sense, they still want someone to make sense out of what they’re saying. They want you to read their mind. When you can’t or won’t, you’re all of a sudden the bad guy and being rude.

that last post was ridiculous. No one was being rude and this new guy freaks out.

People like that must live in a bubble and have very little interaction with others.

go stick with your new site and stop posting if you hate it around here. No one is forcing you to stay.

Social media strikes again!

Blimey.....

I've been here a long time. Yet there are times I see people come here, they ask for advice, and the response they get is not very welcoming. There is a lot of blaming rather than educating. In addition, when people ask for opinions, there are those who not only give an opinion but spend a lot of energy and time negating another's. It's okay to have differing opinions.

But this isn't any different from any other internet forum. Sometimes it gets to me, so I take a break and when I come back I try to ignore the things or people that bother me most.

But this isn't any different from any other internet forum

Currently there are many thousands of appalling comments all over the internet whatever the venue and the subject area. And when I started to look for a gardening forum to join 100 years ago there were numbers of unmoderated ones where thread after thread broke down more or less immediately into profanity and name calling. Over things like, say, how to start beets from seed (to just make something up that represents the kind of topics I am talking about).

So apparently there is an awful lot of anger out there and social media is where it runs free.

The voice of the chronic critic is like the bells and gongs at a railroad crossing, clanging loudly and vainly as the train goes by. Instead of criticizing others – change them. Educate them. Make your opinions unassailable fortresses. Then, you will have done something. If you have neither the will nor the knowledge to change someone's way of thinking, from where does your right to criticize come?

Al

I don't see forums where beet seeding results in profanity

Again this was 100 years ago, when such interactions were being hosted without moderation. And by underdeveloped venues. At a time when Garden Web was already fully featured, clearly therefore the one to try instead.

Maybe, the offensive posters do not respect the site, and those who contribute/answer questions do not respect the questions.

Maybe Socrates

Maybe Gatekeepers

It's funny, I was thinking about this myself yesterday. I've not been on this forum for the past few years but recently have been renovating my landscape and have been looking up more information, so I've been back reading and commenting a little bit. It always strikes me how some people are so discouraging to others who are just asking a question and trying to learn. Making less than ideal choices in plantings is discouraging but it doesn't deserve to be treated as a criminal offense; instead of treating someone as an imbecile who doesn't deserve to be gardening, why not encourage them with information and help? We all start out not knowing anything.

It is my opinion that locking out ability to edit or delete after xx minutes could go a long way in calming things down

I've posted before that a one post per thread limit wouldn't be such a bad thing. Like at a city council hearing where each audience member wishing to come to the podium and address the council can do so only once.

...but Embo dialogue here is usually more of good thing than a bad thing.

tj

I'm sorry Roger, but if you think that fiddle leaf thread was an issue of us bullying the OP, then you have never personally experienced cyber bullying! And yes, he did bite first but that comment has been deleted, not sure if by Thom or by the mods, but it was over the top and uncalled for!! All the rest of us were just defending ourselves against his unwarranted abuse. That's why there were so many somewhat irritated responses. And he did it more than once and kept on doing it!!

btw, if he had bothered to read any of Al's post or his links, his question was more than adequately answered. Apparently some prefer to be bottle-fed rather than reading and learning.

Thank you for the link Roger,I know even less about searching old threads than I do about gardening. From what I see,Al answered Thom's question and actually went so far as answering any he might have later in season or in fall when thinking of moveing the plant back to shelter. The only thing I saw that might offend before Thom got tetsee was a comment about Thom's words being confusing. I also found Thom's words confusing but that happens often and doesn't cause a problem. What ever happened with wearing big girl panties when going out into the world? I can't find anyone that deserve's blame. I do lay much of the blame for this kind of stuff at national news media that get's behind and blow's misinterpitations out of poportion. Hearing it day after day conditions the masses to act accordingly. I just recalled a rule at another forum that helped them. You must have been signed up for a period before you can comment or start a conversation. The members throw playful darts at one another so they want newbies to understand before getting hurt feelings. I don't think that rule would be good here but the sperite is food for thought. Forty lashes with a wet noodle for everyone involved.

If you feel that way, then why are you bothering to hang around? Funny, so far over the 25 or so years I have been participating here, I have seen very little evidence of what you've stated. Most of the advice given has been comprehensive, accurate and to the point and given freely and generously by many who do this as a living and are normally paid for it.

So far, your only comments here (GW/Houzz) have been to this thread. I hardly think that gives you much of a basis to speak from with such a pretense of authority! And pretty much proves - or at least justifies - the contention behind this post.

FWIW - the view from hear is, my reply answered his post to the degree it COULD be answered based on the information he provided. We could have no idea what light level Thom's tree is acclimated to because ".... moderately bright filtered indirect ...." is contradictory and tells us nothing, which is why I used a numerical example to illustrate leaves aren't always capable of adjusting to full sun if they were first acclimated to low light, nor are they always able to acclimate to a dim corner when they were formerly conditioned to full sun. A reasonable person who doesn't understand the info provided asks questions, requests further explanation, or ignores the information entirely. His reaction wasn't even close to reasonable. Instead of asking for additional information, he started firing snarkastic shots over everyone's bow.

He understood what I was saying perfectly well because in a subsequent post he rephrased what he offered originally about the light load it's currently exposed to, then fired off 2 more posts in quick succession, the last one requesting that whoever answers should reply "-- in English, please", which is when I realized it would be better to wish him "Good luck", and be on my way. Even though I saw other warning signs about what direction the thread was likely to head, had he not thrown in the "English please" part I would still have been invested in helping him.

I have a long history of being extremely patient with new or seasoned growers who need help, but have a low threshold for people who demand to be spoon-fed (to borrow a term) only the information they want to hear, framed in a manner they feel is acceptable. YMMV.

Al

Roger Cates, we all know a bully when we see one---just in case you think we're missing it.

I have a long history of being extremely patient with new or seasoned growers who need help, but have a low threshold for people who demand to be spoon-fed (to borrow a term) only the information they want to hear, framed in a manner they feel is acceptable

There is it is, in a nutshell.

And why does this go on? For starters if the information here was being paid for that would generate a different mix of behaviors right there. How much of the recurring hand slapping would go on if there was a charge for the answers? Do those so inclined to gripe about the feedback here also take the same tact with auto mechanics and doctors etc., through the list of paid service providers? I kind of doubt it.

As for the above free psychoanalysis gardengal48 was the lucky recipient of this is unfortunately not the first time I have seen that tact taken here also.

"I don't like what I see as your basic approach so you must be nuts".

Lovely.

And very nervy.

You wouldn't happen to have anything to say about gardening, by any chance?

Wow, this site (and its very knowledgeable regular, long time posters) is taking up a lot space in someone's head, rent free. It takes a lot of energy to continue to vilify something and someone you find so unworthy of your attention.

Ding!

I'm mostly not involved in this but feel compelled to respond to this one bit: " It's unfortunately obvious that you're either a very abusive person
or have been abused in the past. ...
I'm quite certain you'll blame me for starting the argument..."

This is almost a parody of the "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" fallacy - there's no denial or response that's going to be satisfactory. (But of course, "that's just what an abusive / abused person would say", isn't it?)

I don't know anything about the Flesch-Kincaid ranking but didn't find Al's post hard to understand, and this is literally the first time I'd read about the issue.

I'm in the "it's time to put on our big boy panties and chill out" camp. It's the internet, sometimes offence is taken to innocuous stuff, and a little snark from time to time isn't the end of the world, either. If someone has found a more welcoming corner of the internet elsewhere, that's fine, too.

(What I really want to write is a humorous aside on the interaction of the Flesch-Kincaid ranking with the Dunning-Krueger effect, but suspect that would be taken personally or as if directed at an individual rather than the joke I'd intend it as, so I'll hold my tongue)

One of the first things I learned when participating on forums was Don’t Feed the Trolls.

I think I shall name my compost pile The Trolls, put a sign up and say this is the one place it's allowed.

Great idea, armoured. Then maybe someone will come by and stir up “The Trolls”. I could use that. ;-)

tj

Well, Roger and his comments are gone :-) As is Thom from the other thread. Pretty typical for trolling posters or hit and run bullies. And Houzz mods are very present and active!!

Don't argue with a fool,they will only bring you down to their level then beat you. Well folks is there anything we can or should do to control this type thing? Suggestioutns that have been made were pretty much wishful thinging on what we would like admin and mods to do. Let's hear some suggestions. In hindsite I think all of us could have done better. I have a question. Did I only fan the fire by expressing the opinion G. Gal is a poster child for this forum? It hurts to stand by but on the other hand does that validate in their minds that we are an organized mob looking to beat up on folks for our pleasure? Part of the answer might be found in something similar to this example. Jim see's Fred a respected member being trashed. Jim post's a non-partisen comment that Fred and others recconize as code for "I feel your pain,this is a troll,I'm not going to feed it and suggest noone else does". Or perhapps just outright say so in a few words and stand down. Let the troll talk to himself. OH WAIT! littlebug pretty much said that in far fewer words didn't she?. (:

gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9) "SaidWell, Roger and his comments are gone :-) As is Thom from the other thread. Pretty typical for trolling posters or hit and run bullies. And Houzz mods are very present and active!! "

Do you think they deleted their own or do you think a mod did?

Is the flag in lower right corner to report to mod? I've never tried it,maybe I will some time.

I think if two different people flag a post, it disappears and goes to the mods to review. They may or may not reinstate it and think they oppose personal attacks on anyone.

I don't think the mods are actively watching for this kind of thing; we have to bring it to their attention.

klem1, I think it maybe a combination of both. I know Thom deleted at least one of his responses in the other thread but the entire thread disappearing I believe was a Houzz action because it happened after he cancelled his account.

I flagged several of the most egregious and personally insulting of Roger's comments here on this thread so their deletion is likely the work of the Houzz mods.

I just went through a 18 month battle with another former GW member who was over the top in stalking me from forum to forum and making all sorts of wild allegations and abusive personal insults and was instructed by Houzz admin to flag anything that I felt was in violation of their Terms of Conduct. They are quite vigilant, pay attention to the flags and they did follow through. They even posted a rare warning on one thread where he got completely out of hand, threatening closure of his account. He apparently chose to ignore or disbelieve that warning and his account was subsequently terminated.

Because this is all done online and not face to face, it is easy to miss body language, inflection and other subtleties or nuances that can help interpret written comments. But name calling is still name calling, abuse and insults still abuse and insults and bullying is still bullying regardless of whether or not it is written or spoken. And none of it should be permissible here without consequence!

If roger spent as much time learning about plants as he does complaining, he’d be an expert by now.

Something about the internet sure brings out the worst in some people. GardenGal, you have always been so helpful, I cannot understand why anyone would harass you. I'm so sorry. I hope Houzz will keep a lid on that sort of behavior, my experience on internet forums is that without good moderation, bullies inevitably take over and everyone else leaves.

What gos on here doesn't come close to CraigsList. As if crooks and scammers weren't enough to run patrons off,if you inquire at the help desk and subscribe much the same as here you recieve email notifications. Your mail box will overflow with lewd responses. Not tacky or rude, lewd with graphic discriptions of acts and incounter. Not only the inquirer's mail box,the filth appear's on the help desk home page.

On a lighter note,are any here old enough to remember streakers and obsence phone calls? For a laugh, Google Ray Stevens "it's me again Margret" and "the streak".

"Not as bad as CraigsList" would be setting the bar rather low, I should think.

For your consideration:

* When altercations on fora arise, there is often more to the contentious interaction than can be gathered from single thread someone might be basing an opinion on. As Pam mentioned upthread, she had a stalker that followed her from thread to thread, undoing her good work as best he could. The person had no regard for impressionable members who undoubtedly thought the misinformation/outright deception offered solely so he could disagree with Pam, yet had many people 'on his side' for no reason other than the claim he was being victimized. Had everyone been able to see the long term abuse leveled by Pam's stalker, no one would have had a question re where the lion's share of the blame lies. Decision based on emotion makes for an irrational judge who too easily falls under sway of their personal prejudices.

* Some find it hard to resist entering a confrontational discussion w/o some historical knowledge, but that ends up serving as little more than a stirring of the pot.

* I've noticed something appropriate to this discussion. When someone prepositions one's self as a victim, it will take very little to set them off. That has occurred in this and several other threads lately. Some are more interested in finding something to support their claim of victimhood than in the information itself; ie, more interested in creating heat than light. All 3 cases I'm thinking about were recent and the "victim" was the clearly the antagonist.

Al

What has been labeled as passive aggressive behavior has been pointed out many times on threads here (Garden Web) in the past. With "dishes it but can't take it" apparently being fairly prevalent even before there was social media. So that social media is just a showcase for what people were already doing and thinking.

Social media, including this site, is designed to increase user engagement. Whether that engagement is interesting or helpful is not measured by the employers' of the site designers. If users are rapidly posting with jabs at each others' egos, that's high engagement. The quality of the discussion does not matter until it becomes so negative that it causes users to leave.

The most important thing you can do as a user to improve your experience is to only engage with the content that you want to see more of on the forum. Good questions, good answers, shared content like photos and experiences that you find interesting or valuable.

Another thing you can do is to vote with your feet. Then the challenge is to find a forum that isn't prone to the exact same issue. Obviously that excludes the social media giants.

https://garden.org/ looks like a pretty good alternative, although I've not made it part of my regular browsing diet as Gardenweb is. Would love to see the Gardenweb regulars all migrate over there, then I'd have no reason to visit Houzz anymore. Houzz is only tolerable with custom adblocking as it is!

The worst thing you can do, which will degrade everyone's experience including yours, is to engage with bad content and bad actors. You know who the bad actors are. Just don't feed those trolls. As for bad content, sometimes that comes from a newbie's ego getting bruised, but maybe they can learn and move on and contribute positively to the discussion later. If you are patient, help them. If you are not, just move on.

I find ignoring mean people is best and if the site is infested with them--or disagreement is met with nastiness--just leave. If it happens here, I'll just go.

There's tons of other places to be and, as teuth said, this place isn't special and yep, the ads are a bit much... I'll check out garden.org too!