@strawchicago z5 i have never smelled White Licorice so I could not tell you how they compare. Thanks for affirming my move with the electric trimmer. Its so nice not to get snabbed and grabbed while trying to prune.

In my opinion White Licorice scent is more pleasant than Julia Child, it is pure licorice whereas JC reminds me vaguely of a damp basement. I realize that most folks love JC but she's just not me.

I loved White Licorice's fragrance when I grew it. :) :)

I found that my own-root Munstead wood is very cluster rooted in it second year, it is not enjoying the fluffy water retentive potting soil, starting after the first flush. I found it because, I am buttoning things up for the winter by repotting roses that seem to easily get overwatered because it rains all winter here. It seemed to do just fine when it was gallon sized first year (under a porch in winter), but now it needs better drainage...I am guessing it is the thickening up that Strawchicago talks about...not sure. I need to do the same to Jude, so we will see about it's roots.

Remember that you could always use a hole-saw drill to drill much bigger holes. :)

Rosecanadian...I could, but poor Munstead and Jude are in little 2 gallon pots, so they look funny as well as being unhappy. I got a ton of pots on Clearance at Walmart for $5 so I and they will be happier repotted. ........I have drilled more holes in the sides of pots because of that earlier discussion though, so thanks for the reminder!!!!

Oooh!! Pots on clearance for $5!! What a steal!!

Love my local Walmart! Ones just a little further away still have them full price...but my yard got lots of prettying up!

I also am trying to root grafted roses in tall pots, so I'll see how that goes...some will go in the ground, but at least 3 are staying in pots for the experiment. I tried the scrapping bottoms of the canes, rooting #8 and potting soil over.

Ann - I also make sure that I cut the cane below a V notch...and scrape all around and under the V. Make sure to bury the V....lots of roots will grow quickly from there. :)

If anyone have "Beyond Peat" potting soil at Walmart, then grab that while it's on sale 1/2 price at $2 per bag right now. That has horse manure (mushroom compost), alkaline pH at 7.4, but if mixed with alfalfa meal (pH 5) it becomes neutral pH. That potting soil has lots of trace elements to force blooming. My 18 own-roots (in pots) doubled in amount of blooms after I topped these pots with "Beyond Peat" potting soil (has compost, rice hulls and chicken manure).

I used to get horse manure for blooms, but it's a real pain going to the horse stable, much easier to buy a bag of soil for $2 from Walmart. Below pics. of my pots were taken at 90 F on Sat Sept. 18. They were band-size bought in mid-May.

Well being with 6 to 7 buds per branch, for a total of 15+ buds:

Bolero is also loaded with buds, about 10, grown as tiny rooting since May:

What I like about "Beyond Peat" potting soil (with horse manure) is Bolero turns pinkish. I grow 3 Boleros for the past decade, and the only time Bolero gets pinkish was when I topped the pot with horse manure. Horse manure is rich in trace elements for deeper colors & more blooms:

Note below reddish fringe on Well Being (yellow bloom on right). Princess Charlene de Monaco is on left. Pic. taken today Sept. 20. Well Being was boring yellow without "Beyond Peat" potting soil:

Guess I'm going to Walmart tomorrow! The only thing is that we have a second season of planting starting, so it may not be $2 a bag, but I'll give some a try anyway. I would love to have Bolero be pinkish that would be so fun!

@strawchicago z5,

May I ask how often you add lime to your roses? If I understood correctly, the one time you apply it, you use two tables spoons per bush, is that right?

But how often throughout the season?

Mine all suffer from black spot, so if lime helps with that, they must get it.

They did have a $5 sale on pots a while back, but the soil (often used for winter raised bed gardening) is still the same price...maybe when toward the end of Oct or Nov.

Ann: Husband bought both "Beyond Peat" for raised bed, and "Beyond Peat" potting soil. I tested the pH of both using red-cabbage juice against MG-Moisture-control potting soil (has peatmoss). "Beyond Peat" for raised bed pH was 7.2 (slightly blue), "Beyond Peat" potting soil was more alkaline 7.4 to 7.6 and MUCH DENSER, and MG-Moisture-control potting soil was neutral pH (clear) & most fluffy.

The raised bed mix was fluffier & lighter, and the potting soil mix was denser with more mushroom compost (horse manure). I had to use acidic gypsum to break up the potting soil clumps, then mixed with alfalfa meal to top my pots.

Severe_Novice: We got ungodly rain here at 3" to 6" early July, and I was out of Garden Lime powder (22% fast calcium and 12% magnesium), so I used pelletized lime and that could not neutralize acidic rain fast enough.

Pelletized lime has 36% available calcium and the rest is calcium carbonate, which is VERY SLOW to move down

I dust the top of a 2.5 gallon pot with 2 TBS Garden Lime powder before a heavy rain, that neutralizes the acidity of rain. I also dilute 1 TBS of sulfate of potash per gallon of water the day after rain. Rain leaches out calcium first, then potassium. But sulfate of potash CANNOT be applied directly on top, it burns root. Rain also leaches out nitrogen, so I also top pots with alfalfa meal or blood meal NPK 12-0-0 (both are acidic, less is best).

Heavy rain means at least 4 hrs. rain. But if it's just 1/2 hour rain, fast drainage by elevating pots on bricks is good enough, or I drill more holes at the side near the bottom of pot.

So what you are saying, @strawchicago z5, is that before and after rain, they must be taken care of because things leak out of the pot? :)

Renew calcium (lime or gyspum), add some K (is lengbeneite OK?) and alfalfa (will Mills Magic mix do?). I am yet to make it to a Feeder store to get alfalfa in bulk.

Straw - Your pink Bolero is the PRETTIEST Bolero bloom I have ever seen!! :) :) I also really love the dark pink bloom on the left in the first pic. :) :)

Carol: Thank you. You are the positive force which keeps this forum going. Without your compliments and support, less people would pots.

Severe_Novice: Roses Unlimited recommend either 2 cups of alfalfa meal OR 1 cup Mills Magic mix in the planting hole. Alfalfa meal is great for less rain CA, but too acidic for high-rain regions. Dr.Huey-rootstock is most sensitive to acid. Own-roots can take alfalfa meal if neutralized with lime (1 TBS garden lime per 1/2 cup alfalfa meal). Alfalfa meal (neutralized with lime) is good for multiflora-rootstock since that rootstock is sensitive to salt in chemical fertilizer.

For high-rain PNW, Mr. Frank Gatto (owner of a large rose nursery) recommends 1/2 cup of chemical fertilizer 10-10-10, plus 1/2 cup of organics like Espoma Tone per bush every 3 weeks. This is for LARGE rose bush grafted on Dr.Huey which can take salty chemical fertilizer better than multiflora or tiny own-roots.

Roots secrete acid to utilize phosphorus in a process called "acid-phosphatase". But wimpy own-root or multiflora (cluster-root) produce less acid like woody & chunky root (Dr.Huey-rootstock), so young own-root needs SOLUBLE fertilizer high in potassium & phosphorus to form blooms. Potassium and phosphorus are locked up as hard minerals at alkaline pH, and need an acid (like rain at pH 4.5 or sulfur in gypsum) to release.

Acidic rain helps to release potassium from soil to thicken leaves to prevent blackspots. Langbeinite has 22% potassium, 10% magnesium, 22% sulfur, and only 3% chloride. The 10% magnesium helps to retain potassium in the soil, rather than being flushed out.

Roots produce the most acid before blooming and during blooming to break-down phosphorus and potassium (bound up in soil). Rose's tissue is most acidic right after blooming, thus leaves are most susceptible to blackspots.

Raising the pH is to neutralize acidic rain at pH 4.5. Garden lime is fastest to raise the pH prior to a heavy rain. "It will take about 4 tablespoons of lime per 1-square-foot to raise the pH level two points. You should cover the area with half the lime and till the soil to a depth of about 6 inches, then apply the other half of the lime and till again. This method insures the lime is incorporated into the soil, and will not wash away during rainy weather."

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/much-lime-need-change-ph-5-7-1-square-foot-93794.html

Major nutrients are most available at neutral to alkaline pH, versus trace elements are least available at too high pH. Click on pic. below to enlarge to see:

Straw - you are a sweetheart as always. :) :) And incredibly clever! :)

Agreed! Wish you had been my chemistry teacher...at least I'm learning form you now!

Can you help identify this leaf problem? I'm wondering if it is a shortage of iron, as I added quite a bit of lime to the garden last month to raise the ph from a low base. The lime could have been applied unevenly, would this account for patchy leaf problems? Maybe stopping absorption of iron?

To describe the problem, almost of of the leaves on my 12 roses are very healthy & there are hundreds of buds. But on some random leaflets the leaves are mottled with yellow, and some edges are brown. I'm sure it's not black spot which in my garden looks quite different from this.

These are the healthy leaves:

And these are the ones I've picked off:

thanks

Lenarufus: Iron deficiency is green veins on UPPER pale leaves. Zinc def. is mottled yellow. Both iron and zinc are from high pH. I got mottled yellow leaves when I mixed too much Garden Lime to neutralize alfalfa meal. The problem with Garden Lime is it's a powder and shoots up the pH.

Trace elements deficiency like iron and zinc is temporary, and gone when there's acidic rain to bring the pH to neutral.

Below is iron deficiency, which occurs when pH is too alkaline. Note ONLY UPPER LEAVES ARE AFFECTED:

Below is zinc deficiency, which also occurs when pH is too alkaline.

Straw - I love this thread, and how you explain not only "what" but also the "why." You are my rose hero!!

That's interesting ... the affected leaves are mainly in the middle of the plants! It hasn't rained much lately but hopefully we'll get some soon. If the problem spreads I might use this spray which has zinc & iron in it - https://www.yates.com.au/product/garden-fertilisers/speciality-fertilisers/yates-health-tonic-trace-element-chelates/

What do you think about the amount of zinc & iron in it?

@strawchicago z5,

May I ask if you happen to have some background in the natural sciences or is all this scientific knowledge an outgrowth of your hobby? Only answer if comfortable, of course. I completely understand if you'd rather skip this question. :)

EEEkk! I thought I would test the pH again and I think I can see the problem. Very alkaline generally with a few very acidic patches. It was hard getting a general finding, I took 4 samples around each rose and the pH varied wildly for each rose. I went down a trowel length & turned a clod over to try not to get the lucerne pellets in but these could account for the low pH in a few parts.

This is the pH of one of the roses that had the random mottled leaves

I'm thinking I will add some lucerne (alfalfa) mulch. (?)

Also I have some Iron chelate that I was thinking of spraying on the foliage but it is 13% soluble EDTA, so I'm not sure if this will help as I saw this -

At low pH (pH‐H2O 4.35), recovery of soluble iron after six weeks decreases in the order:Fe‐DTPA > Fe‐EDTA > Fe‐EDDHA > Fe‐HEEDTA.

At high pH (pH ‐ H2O 7.25 and 7.85) this order is: Fe‐EDDHA ≫Fe‐DTPA > Fe‐HEEDTA > Fe‐EDTA.

I also have some Iron sulphate, maybe I should apply this to the soil. (?)

But I was amazed how moist the soil is underneath the existing mulch, I haven't watered since August 30 & we've only had 48mls of rain since then. And it's FULL of worms! which made the soil collecting very difficult. I hope nobody heard me apologising to them

Severe_Novice: My B.S. is in computer science, minor in chemistry. I took biochemistry, organic chemistry & inorganic chemistry plus microbiology in college. What helps the most is 30 years of growing roses (I'm 60), plus growing up on a 5 acres farm in Michigan.

The ACTUAL EXPERIENCE counts more than the theories.

Lenarufus: CAUTION ON IRON SULFATE, I killed a few rhododendrons with that .. it burnt roots fast. If there's no acidic rain, alfalfa meal on top lowers the pH fast. Alfalfa tea (soak 4 cups in 40 gallons of water for 1+ day until smells "fermented") works even faster in green up leaves.

Below was Teasing Georgia back in early June when I mixed too much Garden Lime to neutralize alfalfa meal (mix in potting soil). Note both iron and zinc deficiencies on older leaves from high pH.

Below was Teasing Georgia a month later, new growth is normal. All I did was to top the pot with alfalfa meal. If there's no acidic rain I sometimes use gypsum (calcium sulfate) on top, the 18% sulfur in gypsum green up leaves fast. Sulfur is from decayed organics or acidic rain. Without sulfur leaves are pale plus growth is stunt.

@straw berry,

I completely agree about experience - but also interest in knowing all the scientific details :).

Thank you for all your advice!

Great, thanks. The leaves do look like your Teasing Georgia but mine actually end up almost yellow all over.

I'll get out the alfalfa pellets and the mulch as well!

Straw - what do you think of Gaia Greensand...it's supposed to provide iron and potassium...which some of my roses need right now. :)

NPK of greensand is 0-0-3 so NOT ENOUGH POTASSIUM for cluster-root multiflora-rootstock. Multiflora-rootstock are like "baby roots" which can't digest solid-minerals like "adult root" such as big fat stick Dr.Huey. SOLUBLE fertilizer high in NPK is best for multiflora-rootstock.

Still remember how stingy Charles Darwin as own-root. When I dug it up to give to a friend, its roots were wimpy cluster. The only time Charles Darwin bloomed was when I doused it with high phosphorus & potassium such as Masterblend NPK 4-18-38 .. otherwise it grew octopus canes with zero blooms.

Same with Comte de Chambord (grafted on multiflora) ... so stingy unless I doused it with high potassium (sulfate of potash NPK 0-0-50) plus gypsum. In contrast, the other 2 Comte as own-root bloomed easily since their roots are woody & chunky and could digest my rock-hard clay for nutrients.

Some of my own-root roses in pots are still at "cluster-stage" and stingy unless I top with high NPK such as Pennington NPK 10-8-6 for acid plants (has gypsum to digest the minerals), which you bought already. This used to be Acid Lilly Miller NPK 10-5-4 with lots of trace elements, but the new formula has even higher NPK.

Leander is a low-thorn cluster-root rose and didn't bloom until I topped it with NPK 10-8-6 plus tons of rain. Alfalfa meal at NPK 2-1-2 is not enough. Osmocote PLUS is too slow released and doesn't work unless there's tons of acidic rain. None of the "wimpy cluster" own-roots care to bloom with Osmocote PLUS (slow released granular).

Pennington NPK 10-8-6 is high in trace-elements (esp. iron), plus it has gypsum & sulfur to make the granular fertilizer SOLUBLE for wimpy cluster-roots.

The second time Leander bloom is now in hot & dry when I topped with VERY RICH potting soil high in trace elements (has both horse manure and chicken manure). Trace elements are LEAST AVAILABLE under alkaline condition (no acidic rain), so such soil helped.

Hmmm...some of my rose leaves need iron, so I thought Greensand would be the way to go. So the Lilly Miller I bought provides iron? I don't think I should put that on (granular)...too close to winter? Although next week we're expecting some rain. What do you think? I'll check in the morning on the Lilly Miller bag to see about the iron. We're expecting at least 2 weeks of good weather...could be up to 1 or 2 months left...or may not. Who knows? LOL

Just to confirm...you said before that pure potassium is too strong for my roses? That I should just provide what's in the Miracle Gro?

My roses probably had zero trace elements available to them all summer with the high pH. Poor things.

Thanks! My questions never, never end.

We get frost in mid-Oct in my zone 5, which is 2 weeks away. Agree with NO slow-released & granular fertilizer like Lilly Miller in fall, but I use SOLUBLE fast-release NPK 17-18-28 (Shultz tomato fertilizer high in trace elements) for my pots.

Both potassium and calcium are known to UP winter-survival.

With tons of rain, I use Garden lime on the dark-green & glossy leaves, and pelletized lime (no magnesium) on cluster-root or pale-leaves.

With alkaline tap water, I put gypsum on top of pots, but I make sure it's 1/2 amount of the potassium used. Rose tissue analysis (done by U. of CA at Davis) showed 3 part nitrogen, 2 part potassium, 1 part calcium, 1/10 magnesium, and 1/10 phosphorus.

The granular sulfate of potash (NPK 0-0-50) works wonder in the fall, 10+ buds for Pretty Lady rose (in a 2 gallon pot), 6 blooms for Big Purple (2 gallon pot), and 15+ blooms for Sonia Rykiel and Well-Being in pots.

Granular sulfate of potash takes overnight soak to dissolve completely.

Since most of my own-roots are cluster-roots (even thinner than multiflora-rootstock), I notice that they LOVE high-phosphorus chicken manure, along with gypsum (has sulfur plus calcium). Acidic Sulfur is from rain, or decayed organics, or from sulfate of potash and gypsum. LOWERING the pH is the best way to release iron, since trace elements less available at high pH. Alfalfa meal lowers the pH fast.

Below pics. are the many buds on well-being in a 2.5 gallon pot. Since it has dark-green leaves, I topped it with Garden lime first (4 TBS), then alfalfa meal on top. Recently I mixed Beyond Peat soil (has chicken manure & horse manure) with alfalfa & pelletized lime (no mag) plus gypsum works even better.

Gypsum has sulfur which "digest" the hard-minerals for wimpy-cluster root. But mature & woody & chunky roots like years-old French roses or Dr.Huey-rootstock hate the acidity of gypsum.

Below are the 2 blooms on Big Purple, already picked 4 for the vase:

Straw do you only use the Schultz tomato fert in the fall?

I thought you said to not use potassium...too acidic? Maybe that's why it has to soak overnight in tap water?

Oh, man, oh man!!! I love your Big Purple blooms...and you had even more than what's shown there!! Mmmmm!!!

I think that the gypsum, which is acid, has some potassium. Sulfate of Potash is the Potassium that is the one you want. I put 1/4-1/2 tsp per rose. Plus 1 tsp lime or gypsum depending on what the rose likes. It shouldn't change the ph balance too much. But then again...you might just play it safe and just do Schultz.

Straw — I was just rereading your most recent post here. We’ve been having a pretty long dry spell (post Ida). And our frost doesn’t hit till November. How might you adjust amendments/fertilizers in that (my) situation?

I'm sorry to tell you all that Straw won't be coming back to Houzz. She's felt stress/judgment in another thread and feels it's better for her to guard her emotional well-being. I support her in this.

Sorry to hear that, she has been very helpful

Oh gosh, that's awful. Straw has always been so kind and so generous in sharing about her gardening experience. I'm really sorry to hear that others have been unkind and judgmental to her. I'm glad that she has good rose friends like you, Carol! I will miss her here but I am glad she is prioritizing her wellbeing.

How shameful that some have not reached a level of maturity that allows the acceptance of opinions and experiences of others. Good for Straw in honoring her boundaries, sad for those of us that valued her willingness to share her knowledge and experience.

So so sad to hear anyone behaved thus…

Unfortunately, when you encounter blind zealotry, the only way to deal with it is either to shrug it off and smile (requires thick skin) or walk away (as Straw did).

We are all on the losing side because she opted for the latter - she was an amazing resource.

Yes, and a good person. :) :)

Oh no... I have been reading her posts in various threads, they were very informative!

A real shame that she had to have such a negative experience and that she is gone. Selfishly, I hope one day she will be back, but I support her protecting herself first and foremost! Internet comments might seem like a small thing but they can be really hurtful/toxic. I hope she's ok.

Yes, she's okay. :) But she has no plans on coming back.

Strawchicago will be GREATLY missed. She is a person who has shared her experiences so we could ALL benefit.... it is a sad day that people can not just be thankful when someone offers her wisdom and lessons learned. Some people would be better off paying attention if you can't say something nice just do not say anything...... that way they would not chase off people who just want to help.

@seasiderooftop

<<Internet comments might seem like a small thing but they can be really hurtful/toxic. I hope she's ok..."

They ARE a small thing. At least in the vast majority of cases.

IMO, the best approach is "shrug and ignore." I really believe we all have a ton to lose over the long term when we legitimize the culture of "cultivated fragility and smelling salts" over what someone said on the Internet.

I am aware some could say some not-very-nice-things about this very post I am making now, but I can assure anyone interested it will not chase me away, no matter how toxic. :)

If only I could offer 0.01% of the invaluable knowledge straw had.

I could, however, offer 'Thick Skin' tutoring in exchange of her return here.

I think one of the best things we can do is step out and experiment in our rose growing. I am new at buying my own roses, but learned from my grandmother, a good garden experimenter and rose grower.

But the problem is that there is so many rules based rose growing (very helpful when you are just starting) that there is no room for people who try new things.

Trying new things means you fail, lots. It is already hard to fail and kill plants, then to have others attack you for trying new things make it doubly hard.

Sometimes it is the cumulative effect of life plus failed experiments and unkind people. I still remember when I had so many people and animals in my life die in a 3 month time, that I gave away struggling plants so I would not have to see them die too.

I believe we can all try experiments. The more we experiment and share and support, the better we all are.

librarian_gardner_8b_pnw...just lost all my WS 2000 rootings in the big wind....pm on hmf

Thank you, Ann, S-Novice, Sharon, Carol (rosecanadian), seasiderooftop, Aerbk, Mzdee, Lenarufus, Lib_gardner, Kitty_NY for your support. Brendan came back to ask me a question in Organic Rose forum about midge infestation on his pots in CA, zone 10. You ALL ARE INVITED to join me in Brendan's thread on solving problems in roses plus health & nutrition for roses and for us. Taking care of our health is more important than roses.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6194079/discussion-with-strawchicago-about-growing-roses-health-nutrition#n=1

It's safer for me to post in Organic rose forum with a few who post for truth & honesty, than baring my back to be stabbed in the bigger rose forum .. such as my being criticized by Bart in Italy for posting about my 2015 flu-shot reaction last month in Alana's thread "Spinal Tap Result". Bart knows nothing about how in 2015 Alana asked me for a rooting of Le Ria Nias, I was bed-ridden for 3 months with vertigo (from flu-shot reaction) and I could not walk, let alone dig that up for Alana. Bluegirl (Karen) stepped in to generously give Alana a bunch of rootings. Sadly Karen's Mom died of flu-shot reaction (in her mid 60's).

Jim in PA and Ken (another poster) also reported horrible flu-shot reactions.

I got criticized by Bart in Italy as "self-serving" just because I shared about my 2015 flu-shot reaction. Never mind that I spent hours in the past decade answering many of Bart's questions. So I will serve a better-quality group in Organic Rose forum who won't dictate, nor judge and condemn the info. that I share.

I find that those who have nothing to share, tend to nit-pick or criticize those who spend hours sharing info. and posting pics. Some post for an "ego-trip" to pick on or put-down others. My reason for posting is to share my mistakes so others don't make the same. I post for truth, and not for popularity. Those who post for truth and to uplift others are welcomed to join me and Brendan in his thread below in Organic rose forum:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6194079/discussion-with-strawchicago-about-growing-roses-health-nutrition#n=1

I'll meet you there, dear Straw!