Based on your recent posts, may I ask why you are asking this question?

Inquiring minds want to know.

No special reason, just for information.

Production of R410a will not stop in 2024. The manufacture of new HVAC equipment using R410a may stop within the next few years. The production of R410a would continue for several years after new equipment no longer can use it. This is how it was done with the R22 phase out.

There are two refrigerants which are being discussed as replacements of R410a. The problem is these refrigerants are classified as mildly flammable. The current building codes won't allow the equipment using these refrigerants to be installed indoors. The code has to be changed to allow them before the phase out can start. I believe R410a is being phased out for chillers which is industrial equipment that is installed outside of the building. If the equipment catches fire it is less likely to burn down the building.

California may have legislation in progress to ban R410a. It is ironic that the state which suffers from fires is even considering this. I suppose they have their priorities.

As usual, there's plenty of misinformation in the cartoon featuring @Austin Air Companie provided above.

First, the phase down of HFCs is a phase down--not a phase out. It's not based on a recent amendment to the Montreal Protocol; the Kigali Amendment to the Montreal Protocol dates to 2016. While the U.S. Senate has not yet ratified the Kigali Amendment, phase down of HFCs like refrigerant R-410a are currently mandated under the American Innovation and Manufacturing (AIM) Act of 2020.

The phase down of HFCs has not caught the HVACR industry by surprise. Indeed the Air Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute (AHRI) along with a number of other industry and environmental groups petitioned the EPA earlier this year for uniform standards for HFC phase down under AIM. The petition is expected to result in an additional half billion tons of CO2 reduction over and above what is projected by AIM. That's right: an industry trade group proposes to exceed the targeted CO2 reduction.

Folks who'd like a good overview of the HFC phase down and don't have the time or tolerance for a 24 1/2 minute cartoon can find it here:

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11779

Thanks for the information, I did not expect so much going on regards to this subject, Anyway, Thanks everyone.

"As usual, there's plenty of misinformation in the cartoon provided above."

No surprise - the source is a frequent spammer at this site. Cima, are you also from Texas? lol

Stax, Yes, Houston.

Who made the cartoon featuring Ray Austin disappear?

CR Homes, I think there are only two possibilities, and one seems much more likely than the other.

First off Charles Ross is a builder, not a good reader, not a good understander of what he reads.

The video I made about this topic was BEFORE the article that Chucky posted. (easily verified just read it, then focus and comprehend what you're reading.)

Contrary to popular myth I don't have any telepathic, mind reading or psychic ability. I can not tell you the future, let alone your future.

Here's a snippet of the article Chucky posted and failed to read and understand.

(quote from page 2)

To address HFC emissions and their projected effect on climate change, EPA promulgated two rules under CAA Title VI in 2015 and 2016. These rules were partially vacated by the court.

For more information, see  CRS In Focus IF11541, Hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs): EPA and State Actions; and 

CRS Legal Sidebar WSLG1868, D.C. Circuit Rejects EPA’s Efforts to Ban Hydrofluorocarbons: Part I; and CRS Legal Sidebar WSLG1869, D.C. Circuit Rejects EPA’s Efforts to Ban Hydrofluorocarbons: Part II (available to congressional clients upon request). Given that AIM establishes a separate legal authority to phase down HFCs, EPA is expected to shift its regulation of HFCs from CAA Title VI to AIM. (end quote)

So because this article was written "after" my video? What would that tell you?

Time & HVAC: Time doesn't stand still. A fact that Chucky, for some reason can not comprehend. I noted above that additional parts to the video are coming: As new information comes out?

Read, then focus your mind on comprehending what you are reading. (If you can't do this, maybe you should find a new hobby.)

Now if "phase down" doesn't essentially mean an eventual ban? I've got some over priced Freon to sell you. The cost of refrigerant is what drives new equipment 9 times out of 10. The cost of any refrigerant is a direct reflection of "incumberances" placed upon it. Phase down implies limits. Supply vs Demand. Less supply, constant demand = what?

Chucky builds... consider your sources people.

@Austin Air Companie,

You chose to post a video on this thread that wasn't timely and your spewed misinformation-- as is frequently the case.

You'll serve houzzers better if you forgo the cartoons and simply point them to credible sources of information.

@Austin Air Companie,

You chose to post a video on this thread that wasn't timely and your spewed misinformation-- as is frequently the case.

It was produced in January 2021, uploaded January 30.

Your article March 3, 2021. (a month and few days difference is not timely?)

I also noted in the video as well as what I posted, that this video was a starting point... not the end all be all in information. I also said there would be new segments as new information comes out. But of course this involves reading & comprehending, certainly one of your weaknesses.

Stick to pounding nails Chucky.

Back to the original topic, which turns out to be timely for me:

Yesterday, I had an HVAC contractor visit and price out a cold-climate mini split system for me, and, after he did his measurements, etc., he commented that the equipment he prefers (Haier) uses the best refrigerant for cold climates. When I asked which one that is, he said "I don't remember exactly, but I think it is 410a".

Meet your new refrigerant to replace R410a - Difluoromethane (R32).

R32 only produces a third of the greenhouse gas R410a does and if we stop using all carbon based fuel, stop exhaling Co2, eliminate cows and their destructive farts the world is saved. R32 doesn't even have a California warning label under Prop 65, something I see on almost everything, so it has to be safe, right?

From the MSDS for Difluoromethane Saftey Data Sheet.

This material is considered hazardous by the OSHA Hazard Communication Standard
(29 CFR 1910.1200).

• Danger
• Extremely flammable gas.
• Contains gas under pressure; may explode if heated.
• May displace oxygen and cause rapid suffocation.
• May form explosive mixtures with air.

Just make sure your house insurance policy covers exploding air conditioners and it doesn't become excluded from coverage. And don't let your pets, or kids sleep on the basement floor if you ever get an R32 system.

I wonder if it can be used to kill moles since it's heavier than air. Plus plus.

My understanding is R32 is being proposed for commercial equipment, and R-454B would be the refrigerant for residential applications. The safety problems with these refrigerants will need to be resolved if these are the replacement candidates.

I would suspect of a HVAC contractor who doesn't know what refrigerant is used by the equipment he installs. I could be wrong but I believe all mini split equipment sold in the US uses R410a refrigerant.

"he commented that the equipment he prefers (Haier) uses the best refrigerant for cold climates."

I think you've said you're in a small town so your choices of HVAC companies may be limited but I'd ditch this guy. I believe new equipment at any point in time uses the same refrigerant. Sounds like he really doesn't know much.

Additionally, Haier is known for being a lower priced supplier, not a higher quality one. See if you can find someone who works with the better regarded Japanese (Mitsubishi at the top, but also Fujitsu and Toshiba) or Korean (LG) brands.

"It was produced in January 2021, uploaded January 30.

Your article March 3, 2021. (a month and few days difference is not timely?)"

I wouldn't spend time watching your video but I'll rely on CR Homes. Your video apparently had incorrect information in it when you posted it, not the first time. The date of a summary from another source a month later hardly matters, your information was wrong.

Can you refrain from disparaging, rude comments? He challenged what you posted as being wrong and misleading. That may have upset you but you apparently agreed with him and removed the link. There's no need for childish name calling.

Elmer, thanks for your overview. I was surprised that he recommended Haier because I also thought it was a low-priced supplier. Before I comment more on his recommendation, I'll wait and see what he says. BTW, when I first started thinking about this project (before the pandemic), I contacted a local commercial refrigeration contractor, and he expressed interest. He couldn't give me a quote but he "guestimated" ~$7000 for the project, but we haven't reconnected since the pandemic.. He would use Fujitsu equipment.

Addendum - I Googled Haier and got a company with this logo:

Try to find a provider who lives and breathes minisplits. Like other things in the HVAC world, the equipment quality counts for less than the skill and experience of the tradesman. I'd rather have low quality equipment installed (and then maintained) by an expert than top quality installed and handled by someone without comparable experience. And funny thing, most experts in these situations steer away from the lower quality stuff because they want better performing and more reliable equipment to be accountable to their customers for.

I'm sure a local refrigeration company doing something they do rarely (if ever) could figure it out but that wouldn't be a first choice and hopefully you can find better alternatives. .

R-454B is a blend of R32 (69%) and R-1234yf (31%) with different boiling points and I'm guessing both must have the same compression ratios. (I they do) The R1234Yf is to reduce the flammability.

Funny thing, before HCFC's Propane (R-290) and propane blends were used, were effective with nearly the same boiling points as R-22. Propane has 0 effect on the ozone and global warming potential (GWP) number of 3 compared to R410a with a GWP of 2088, R-32 and R-454B of 676 give or take a few points. And Ammonia (R717) is one of the best because of it's efficiency with no ozone or GWP worries but it all comes down to safety issues.

Now they're trying to reduce GWP at the expense of human safety issues, when they had natural and environment friendly (remember GWP of 3) refrigerants already, and whats to say in 5 years the protocol reduces GWP from 750 to 500? Then the search and phaseout begins again. They put Propane and Ammonia on the back burner, pardon the pun and maybe should have focused on some past refrigerants over the years to make them safer for humans to use.

So the work is in progress to make Hydrocarbon once again a refrigerant by the way the refrigerant system is built. As of 2018 you can use up to 5.29 oz charge of propane for refrigeration and may jump to 17 ounces. To much wheel spinning going on and made a wrong turn somewhere.

Haier which is based in Qingdao, China, is the world's leading appliance manufacturer. Haier bought the appliance division of GE in 2016. I believe residential refrigerators use R134a refrigerant. However R134a has been phased out for automobile manufacturing.

You need a score card to keep track of all these refrigerants!

"Haier which is based in Qingdao, China, is the world's leading appliance manufacturer."

Lower prices lead to higher volume. Lower quality leads to lower prices.

GE made the strategic decision to exit the appliance business and found a buyer. There are many historic brand names still in the marketplace produced by new owners and bearing no resemblance (besides the nameplate) nor reputational ties to their origins.

The best thing I know that originates from Qingdao is its famous lager beer brand, transliterated in the old way to Tsingtao.

Can you refrain from disparaging, rude comments? He challenged what you posted as being wrong and misleading. That may have upset you but you apparently agreed with him and removed the link. There's no need for childish name calling.

I didn't remove any link I don't know what you're referencing.

I am defending myself from constant "disparaging and rude comments" I think you know who you should be telling this too.... I don't do anything without good reason.

The video I posted was about an article not written by me. In terms of sources available at the time the video was produced I determined it was the best source at the "time". Time moves on as I pointed out in reference to the article he posted that there was "a reference to the banning of HFC refrigerants" of which he clearly failed to mention because he has a problem with reading things.... if that is childish? posting things without actually reading what that content is? (which in fact exonerates the video I produced and published.) Clearly you failed to read it too....

Another argument from the argument king: The Kigali amendment was not a recent event dates back to 2016. So with this logic I am not going to make a video where these decisions are having an influence on things to come? The Montreal protocol has been amended more than once. The Kigali amendment was? "The most recent". But a builder that is just here to argue this or that? Everything becomes an argument.

Now lets see who reads, and comprehends the words I have written to clarify things.

click to enlarge if necessary.

I am not someone for the "community" to walk on... I will defend myself whether you like it or not.

If the community has now gained a sense of "adulthood" and refrains from childish behavior -- I welcome that change.

BUT IT STARTS WITH YOU. --- show me you've changed.

Draw up a "cease fire" agreement with dates of implementation. I challenge you to do it.

back to the topic at hand.

Funny thing, before HCFC's Propane (R-290) and propane blends were used, were effective with nearly the same boiling points as R-22. Propane has 0 effect on the ozone and global warming potential (GWP) number of 3 compared to R410a with a GWP of 2088, R-32 and R-454B of 676 give or take a few points. And Ammonia (R717) is one of the best because of it's efficiency with no ozone or GWP worries but it all comes down to safety issues.

I think they are making a mistake not just biting the bullet and choosing R-290 propane. Sure it's not only flammable but also explosive. However, HVAC could be redesigned to make these things less of an issue. It would involve a serious redesign when it comes to residential real estate.

I also believe it would cure another ill of anyone and their brother, builder, friend or foe wanting to get involved with HVAC.

Across America we've got these big tanks sitting in yards with propane (fuel for furnaces) this type isn't for refrigeration as things are added to it so you can smell leaks. Refrigerant grade propane is void of that. You can't smell it in the refrigeration realm and using fuel grade propane for refrigeration? not a good idea.

The thing is there is more money in a newer not so good refrigerant that is still high when it comes to GWP or other concerns.

The other advantage to refrigerant grade propane is that there is no recovery involved. Costs would go up in safety gear for contractors but the technology is readily available. The ultimate con is the up front cost. So the manufacturer's continue on the same ole --- let's phase down, phase out, or ban (what ever verbage you use it's essentially the same thing at some point) something every decade or two so we can sell more equipment.

FYI: R22 Freon production was banned Jan. 1, 2020. Yet if you have the money, I can still service your R22 Freon AC system. (It's repair costs that fuels replacements 9 times out of 10)

Why would you spend a couple of grand repairing a beater? It's not that I can't repair it, it's that it's not worth repairing. But some people (not all) like to think these things last forever.

There's no need to overreact to "defend yourself" if what you've said is wrong or someone disagrees.

There's no need to overreact to "defend yourself" if what you've said is wrong or someone disagrees.

As I figured... same song and dance. The rhetoric continues.

I can't do something the "community" refuses to do. You refuse to see my position. You have that choice. As well as I have my own choices.

Have fun Mr. Fudd.