Zone 7a philadelphia is my location

James, what a gorgeous deck! It's really quite beautiful and looks like a wonderful place to relax on a summer's day!

I do grow Henry's Garnet but my experience is sooo different from yours I'm not sure it will be helpful. I've got a VERY swampy area that truly never dries out and at some times of the year is covered in standing water. This is where my Henrys are. They grew quickly, do very well and are probably roughly 5-6 feet in diameter and 4-5 feet tall. They do sucker, which to me is the one downside. I planted them because they were supposed to do well in wet conditions, and they do!

I've had them so long I don't remember my research on them, but if you found that they do well in wet or dry soils, then I would imagine once you get them established they will do so.

Just remembered I just took some photos two days ago of the area. There is a pathway that I always need to redo due to the water, and I weeded it, shoveled some of the soil off, put down cardboard and added woodchips. The photos were more to document my work on the pathway than the plants but here they are:

I wish it were more evident in the photos, but we have not had rain in at least two weeks, and the soil in that pathway, and the grass at the end of it, are very soggy. In behind the willow to the left, where I walked to dump the weeds, I sank about 3-4 inches down and at times had trouble lifting my foot back up from the suction lol. In the photos above the Henry's Garnet are, on the right, about the second shrub back, behind the smaller bog rosemary. On the left it's harder to see. It's right about where the right side of the willow drapes down; there is an astilbe to the left and then the itea. I kind of "limbed up" the itea to clear out some weeds and suckering underneath it, so you can kind of see a bare area. There is another one on the left by the shed but it's not distinguishable here. There are two other HG's here but off to the right out of camera range.

So, I'm sure all of this is really of no help, lol, since it's so different than your situation, but just sharing my experience and wishing you well with yours!

:)

Dee

Thanks Dee ! I appreciate your info! I like to get my information from forums and this plant isn’t really talked about much anywhere. It’s a nice plant. The flowers are nice but don’t last long and I know they have some good fall color. Nothing too exciting about the plant. I like how yours look. I am hoping they do the trick, they seem low macitence which is good. Very rarely do I see a tag that says wet-dry haha. So many great plants like wet area and I only have a small corner of my yard that is on the wetter side. I put a fringe tree there.

Yes, the HG's are very low maintenance for me - mostly all I need to do is watch for the suckers and cut them back. I was slightly underwhelmed by the fall color - more deep, purplish reds rather than any brilliant colors, but mine are in a somewhat shady situation so that may have something to do with it.

:)

Dee

I have the plain Itea virginiana, although I wanted the Henry's Garnet but couldn't find it at the time. I liked the fall foliage that was better. But I have still enjoyed my Itea. Very low maintenance. I have it up against the house facing East in maybe 7 hrs of sun a day. Has not needed anything. It does sucker, but nothing like my Gray Dogwood, that really travels. We did adjust the shrub this spring by just digging out around the edges that were crowding the lawn and another shrub. We've only done that 2x in 10 years. I don't pay any particular attention to watering it, except when I have to water other shrubs. Always looks good, no diseases, no insects. Nice fall color.

Here are a few photos of it blooming in the spring. First one has a rose in front of it.

Wow great pictures and information! Thank you both. This is making me feel a lot more confident in my somewhat impulsive decision to go with them. Both of yours look great ! I just bought my first gray dogwood as well and planted a few weeks ago. I’ve heard the suckering frequent. The roots looked aggressive based on how many were almost growing through the grow bag it came in !

Wow PM2 and annztoo, your blooms look great! Mine don't look that good lol. I wonder - again - if it's the shadier siting. Thanks for sharing your photos!

:)

Dee

James, if you have a place out of the way for the Gray Dogwood, it's a nice shrub. It's native as well. No maintenance at all, unless you count trying to keep up with the suckering if you have to. White berries that the birds eat - mostly robins. I have mine in a small amount of sun and it does flower but only on the branches where the sun hits.

Despite the suckering I am not sorry I planted it, because it performs in a corner of the yard that is quite close to a 60 year old Silver Maple and I tried so many things in that corner and nothing thrived. The gray dogwood, just took off after planting. Very rapid growth and quickly reached it's mature height and settled in to spread. [g] It has become a nice screen in that corner for a neighboring house. If you want vigorous, you've got it. Healthy attractive foliage and form. I thought I would get red fall foliage but I don't. Maybe you will. The suckering - if you need to prevent it from taking over quite a large area, the best thing to do, is to take out the young saplings around it every spring or fall. When they are small they are not difficult. It becomes a job if you let it go.

And the Iteas, are not a flashy shrub but near a porch or against the house they reach the perfect height and stay there. Mine is under my LR window and I never prune it. Henry's Garnet should get a nice red fall foliage, mine is more orange/yellow. Good luck with them.

Dee, I'd think it is the shade. Mine is right up against the house facing East, so in the afternoon it is shaded by the house. I think that gives it a good amount of sun but not so much that it's growing out of bounds. Not really the flashy shrub that I'd choose for the front of the house, but, it's just made itself so easy to get along with and with the rose in front of it to spice it up, I'm happy with it.

Hydrangeas seem to be the most floriferous to me, in shady conditions. And the blooms stay on the shrubs for so long a time. But my mopheads barely bloom. [g] I have an Oakleaf that blooms well dependably every year facing East with a lot of afternoon shade. I'm new to panniculatas and those really bloom, but they are in my front bed in full sun. I grew a lot of Viburnums but I don't have one left. One problem or another and a short bloom period and not always berries. I have Clethra growing in shady areas, that get morning sun and those bloom well. Azalea of course, but such a short bloom period. I haven't been able to grow a Rhododendron which I would have liked to do. I tried it once and it did poorly so out it came. I don't know why, my neighbor grows a giant in his front yard facing West - but that's more sun. Everything else I grow gets more sun. Nothing really in full sun though except my one 15x20 mixed bed in the front. I'm sure there are many shrubs I haven't tried for shady conditions.

PM2 as you well know, lol, I also have a lot of shade! And the other garden I maintain, the one with the swampy area, is also at least half shade, half sun. Hmm, maybe a bit more shade than sun lol. Her yard is, imo, somewhat odd. The frontage along the street is very dry. The yard slopes gently - GENTLY - downwards towards the back of the property to a creek. The difference in elevation is not really drastic at all or even that much of a difference, but the difference in soil moisture is night and day! I have things dying from lack of water up front (and some under maples to boot!) and things drowning in the back lol. So in the swamp garden, moisture loving qualities trump sun loving qualities lol. I go with whatever likes the water and have to give up something in terms of bloom, color, etc.

But it's all good! Well mostly. Some things have croaked when they shouldn't have (looking at you, cornus Ivory Halo!) With some plants I've actually been the victim of my own success lol. The HG's, for example, have exploded and done exceptionally well. Ditto the salix Hakuro Nishiki - two of them doing wonderfully, even after one was practically leveled by a falling tree. And several of the things you mentioned - clethra (love this plant!), hydrangeas, viburnums - do very well. It's a difficult area to physically work in, but a really fun area to garden in - to plan, see what works, see what doesn't, and especially because there are a lot of natives to work with.

James keep us posted on your HGs. Would love to see them as they grow - and maybe in the daylight. ;)

:)

Dee

Jim,

Behmerwald Nursery in Schwenksville, PA has several cultivars of Calycanthus including Aphrodite, Venus and the new Burgundy Spice. Aphrodite/Venus #3 container are $33 ea and Burgundy Spice is $56.

https://www.behmerwald.com/plants/shrubs/

Regards,

Will

Will thanks for the info. I will check them out. Do you have any calycanthus in your yard ?

Yep, I have Aphrodite purchased from Behmerwald. Have it sited in a full sun location southeast exposure about 6' from my stone foundation. It grows fast and can be pruned hard to control size. It gets larger than the 5'-6" listed so give it some space. They say to prune after flowering but in our area that is from May-Sept or even into October. I prune when necessary and not worried about the flowers as they are abundant and new growth shoots are plenty.

I'd site it off of corner of house by 10' to give plenty of space or out in an open bed in yard. Relatively pest free and fungal issues not a problem on mine. Very magnolia like foliage /blooms, but lasts for 5-6 months per year vs a couple weeks on a magnolia. Foliage turns a bright yellow in Fall. The new Burgundy Spice is suppose to be the latest and greatest Calycanthus to hit the market with purplish foliage and burgundy colored flowers.

Behmerwald is a nice little family owned nursery and tucked into hillside near Spring Mount Ski Resort. Best deals are on shrubs/perennials which are of good healthy stock. Trees, are very limited and pricing on them is better at the larger nurseries found in Bucks County.

The owner, Bill Donnelly will go out of his way to order something if they don't have it in stock and staff is very friendly.

Fall color looking good so far. This colors earlier than most of my plants. I do get some tip dieback after winter which I read is less common in the straight species. They attract plenty of pollinators when in bloom. The two end ones are located right next to gutters. I’d say they are close to double in size and much more vigorous/full. All that extra water really helps them. Hopefully the middle ones catch up soon. Pleased with the plant.

Looking good! Thanks for the follow-up! I love when people continue to post and show pics of something they've started. It really helps all of us. And yes, I can see the difference in the two end plants. I'm glad you are pleased with them - it's always nice to be satisfied with such a big decision!

Again, that is such a lovely deck. It all looks wonderful!

:)

Dee

James, I'll bet you are right that the shrubs on the end get more water. Maybe you can make up the difference and just put a couple of watering cans on those shrubs not near the downspouts when you think of it. Great color!

I wonder how you made out with the Gray Dogwood? We have had a tremendous amount of rain this year and some of my shrubs are showing me just how much rain they prefer because this has been a banner year for some of them. Which included my Gray Dogwood. It was covered with blooms and now fruit. And really it is lucky if 2/3rds of it has sun for 2 hours and shade the rest of the time.

Here it was in full bloom. And I didn't even take out any of the suckers this year, but next spring I'll go around it and take out the edges. It's really very easy for me.

I got a gray dogwood and it’s doing great! Hasn’t put on much size and finally started getting a sucker here and there. It’s a very nice tree. It’s a shame we don’t see it more often in landscapes. I had a neighbor or compliment how much she likes it recently. I haven’t had many berries on my gray or red twig dogwoods. I have tones of bees especially in that native section of my garden. Hopefully next year I get more as they become more established.

Digger Dee I learned a lot in this forum. So I feel like updating my posts is helpful because I know updated posts helped me. Nothing worse than a great post on here that was never followed up.

Planted some gray dogwood bare-root sticks in shade along my border stream. They didn't do much until 2 yrs ago, now faster and 6 ft tall. No flowers yet. If mine suckers, all the better along the stream edge.

"...Nothing worse than a great post on here that was never followed up..."

Agree! I too learn so much here, and I learn even more when the information is followed up with results!

That gray dogwood is lovely. I don't know if I have enough moisture to grow it, and those suckers worry me a bit. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time in the garden to add a plant that needs the constant attention of looking for suckers.

:)

Dee

I just noticed that this thread started 2 years ago. I love that you came back to update it James. And I see that Dee responded to my post 2 years ago and I missed it, sorry about that. [g] I had a Cornus 'Ivory Halo' that I lost that was just in too much dry shade and it never thrived. I pruned it one year, like they tell you to, to get new red stems and it never really came back. I also love Clethra, the foliage is always pristine.

I wanted to take a photo of my Itea’s fall color, that has been orange colored this year. But I waited too long and now it’s raining, so I will probably lose some of the leaves before I get a photo. I’ll try to take one tomorrow. Edit: I looked at it after it stopped raining and it lost a lot of leaves, so you can't really get a good idea about the fall color. Sorry.

Dee, if you have an area that you’ve tried a lot of shrubs that haven’t thrived, then the gray dogwood is something that might. And I have a very dry yard with all the tree roots and never any standing water. That gray dogwood is maybe 15ft away from the trunk of a 65yr old Silver Maple and doesn’t really get much direct sunlight at all.

And yes, maybe the gray dogwood suckers a little more aggressively than the Itea, but, actually the Gray Dogwood suckers were easier for me to get out. Plus, I placed two Mophead Hydrangeas between the gray dogwood and the lawn to keep it from suckering into the lawn and that actually worked. The Hydrangeas don’t flower there, there is just not enough sun, but I leave them to keep the Itea out of the lawn. It has a very large area to sucker into and I’m content for it to fill in there and only about 3x has it started to encroach on it’s neighbors, and we’ve removed some suckers to get it back to a manageable footprint. I need to do it again next spring. I didn’t do it this year or last.

Another follow up for some Gardner who comes here looking for info on this plant. Still doing great and a few suckers this year, which is fine with me. As seen my two near the gutters are much bigger and suffer less winter dieback. They all flower profusely though.

James, those are looking good. Good siting too.

Thanks for the update....they look great! Too bad you couldn't put a soaker hose along that row to allow the 3 in the middle to catch up. I imagine they will catch up sooner or later regardless. It will look great with your white porch railing. Such a sight when that row fills in!

Yeah I’ve even debated putting something at both gutters to distribute the water more evenly. I think as they fill and sucker they will shade the roots more and hopefully retain soil moisture better

Yes, I was thinking the same thing - some kind of runner/conduit to help the water from the downspout travel a bit further to the middle shrubs.

They look wonderful though. Very nice! I'm also envious of your edging lol - I have a edger and I still can't keep a nice straight edge like that haha.

I hope you are happy with your choice - I think it looks great!

:)

Dee

OT to subject but not to ’edging’

Dee, those half moon edgers are pretty uselees. a straight edged shovel or spade sharpened within an inch of its life is much more effective. A shovel that you are driving into the ground needs to have that little ledge on both sides of the shovel head so you can step or jump on it and take out a good chunk of soil.

i

Tuff winter in Philadelphia suburbs. Lots of dead wood on the middle 3. The end two near the gutters had barely any die back. The good news is the end two had plenty of runners that are working there way towards the middle
Of the bed. Hoping this eventually becomes one big hedge and benefits the plants by shading the bases.

My apologies if this is a double post – I thought I submitted it earlier but did not see the post in the discussion.

Good morning James – I am also in the Philly burbs – Bucks – and I am a very recent poster on Houzz. I find it very informative to read through old discussions and I see this one has been around a long time with great comments. Regarding your last post, the Iteas will eventually grow into a hedge – I unfortunately don’t remember how long it took. These have been in the ground over 10 years and I do some pruning (when I remember) to keep them somewhat below the windows – I prune them harder on the left side so we can see the bird feeder. I usually take out some older stems to the ground plus runaways I don’t want and thin a bit to control the height. Best of luck this year – we have had plenty of rain this May so they should be off to a good start.

Thank you to everyone for posting their sweetspire experiences. I'm adding a Henry's Garnet to the foot of my yard (between my drain field and the milkweed along my rural road) - a very different use than you urban/suburban gardeners. I want to add some flowers to my yard, and the spot can get very wet because of elevation changes. I'm hoping for good lateral spread, but I will prune them to keep them from getting too tall. Thoughts about planting them in wet, shady areas? I'm in zone 5b.

Awesome Raymond ! they look great ! What area of bucks are you in ? I am in the glenside area Montgomery county

Toronto some shade won’t hurt. I think they can be a part shade plant. Part of the reason I wanted mine in closer to full sun was for the fall color. I read they may not color up as good in part shade. The benefit of wet feet will help. Saw a bunch growing on a shoreline of a lake fishing this weekend.

Hi James and Toronto – I want to let you know that the photos I posted recently are of Itea ‘Little Henry’ – they are not so little. They face South-East-ish and receive filtered sun most of the day. FYI – I found an interesting Itea discussion on Houzz from 14 years ago posted by mainegard3: Itea or not!

@Toronto – I also have some ‘Little Henry’ planted in other locations – east facing in front of some big Spruce – the area is relatively moist and gets a good amount of shade (photos). The last part of 2024 was very dry, and this year so far has been fairly wet. I didn’t add Iteas for the flowers at the time of planting– I needed to fill spaces. For me, LH takes very well to pruning, when I remember and can get to it. I can’t speak to HG.

@James – I am located in New Hope, Pa. The funniest thing – I was in the area of North Wales today and stopped into Pumpernick’s deli and walked out with a Pastrami Ruben + Latke. Best of luck with your new Ninebarks.

Not little at all ! Looks great. Thanks ! I know pumperkicks. Grew up on the edge of horsham and across the street was Montgomeryville. I also fish the Delaware a lot. First public lot north of dilly’s corner a bit up the road. Love the new hope. Some great gardens and properties up that way

lol, James I just posted to your ninebark thread and asked if it were you that had the great deck with the iteas planted there. Then I scroll down through the threads and see this one updated lol - and yes, it WAS you with the great deck!

It seems this past winter was rough on a lot of things. Lots of OLD (decades old!) rhodies are half gone, and arborvitaes in the area looking pretty rough too. Actually, perhaps it was more like SPRING damage. In my garden upon early inspection, there were a lot of dead buds on a lot of things - hydrangeas, redbuds, buddleia. Too bad, as things would be in a lot better shape except for probably a day or two of sudden temperature plunges. Your iteas look good thought and I am sure they will fill in nicely.

Toronto if you read through this thread you can see my post on planting iteas in a VERY wet area in part shade. I don't know the technical definition of a swamp but this garden has standing water for months at a time, and I have lost a boot or two in the mud lol! Probably about half sun, half shade. Had Henry's Garnets planted here that grew to more than expectations. Color was probably not what it could be in more sun, but still had nice deep purplish-red foliage. Blooms may have been a bit fewer too, but considering the needs of this garden I was very pleased with my results.

:)

Dee