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christopher_hebert14

Window Size and Design Decision

5 years ago

Design question. Second floor bedroom with 10 foot ceiling. Window will look at neighbors house about 5 feet away. Because of proximity to property line, can only go with a 2 x 3 feet window before needing a fire rated window, which will be over $6,000 just for that window.

How bad will the 2x3 window look on that size wall?

Don’t love the idea of paying that much to go bigger, but don’t have many other options. Looked into a fire shutter, but this option is also pretty steep.

Comments (30)

  • PRO
    5 years ago

    How can anyone be able to tell what the window will look like when they do not know what the house looks like much less the wall?

    Hire a local architect.

  • 5 years ago

    Hired one. It’s a side wall. Architect had put in a larger window, but the window would have to be fire rated, or use a fire shutter. Due to supply chain disruptions, cost of a fire shutter has more than doubled since April (window costs up as well). This is why I started looking into other options. Architect mentioned that by going with a 2 x 3 window, fire rated requirement could be avoided, but that it obviously won’t look good as good.

  • PRO
    5 years ago

    What does it look like?

  • PRO
    5 years ago

    If you're 5 feet from the neighbor's house, no one will see this window except your neighbor. So why worry about it?

  • 5 years ago

    Yeah, I don’t care about what anyone else will see. Neighbours won’t see it. Mostly just concerned about the view from the jnside and if having a small window on a wall with high ceilings will look ridiculous.

  • 5 years ago

    Appropriate window coverings will help with your in-room decor view.

  • PRO
    5 years ago

    Please provide floor plan of each floor and all exterior elevations of the house.

  • PRO
    5 years ago

    I'd have the architect draw an elevation of the wall with the 2 x 3 window.

  • PRO
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Bier is right, that's most likely all that's needed. A window that small will probably look out of scale on that wall, but a larger window will just allow you to see more of your neighbor's wall. Not to mention cost a lot more money. I assume there are other windows in the room, and if so maybe you don't need the window at all.


    By the way, a floor plan of each floor and exterior elevations of all walls is totally unnecessary to answer this question.

  • PRO
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    "By the way, a floor plan of each floor and exterior elevations of all walls is totally unnecessary to answer this question."

    It is necessary for me to answer the question. I like to have a lot of context when giving advice. That way the OP gets their money's worth.

  • 5 years ago

    If it is small, can you do a transom window(s) or something similar that seems intentional rather than undersized?

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    If the IRC applies, a 2x3 window is unlikely to meet the requirment for an Emergency Escape and Rescue Opening in each bedroom. Could it even meet the the natural ventilation requirement assuming the house is not mechanically ventilated?

    What is the limit on the total glass area allowed in the wall? How far apart would multiple windows need to be?

    New construction that close to a neighboring structure is unusual. Is this a single family residence? Does it have a fire suppression (sprinkler) system?

  • PRO
    5 years ago

    Often times more information is better, even necessary. Sometimes it's not. This is one of those times. If the OP makes the mistake of posting all the floor plans and elevations, the discussion will degenerate into the usual pick-apart-everything-that's-wrong with the design and completely veer away from the original question. Fun for us, maybe, but not fun or useful for the OP. Sometimes a simple question deserves a simple answer.

  • PRO
  • 5 years ago

    Thanks to everyone that has provided an answer so far. Here is a little more information:

    - a 2 x 3 window will meet code

    - although the construction is effectively a new build ( to the studs for existing house, large addition on the back, new plumbing, electrical, HVAC, windows for the entire house, etc.), we are keeping the exterior front, and existing side walls of the original 1930's home, which imposes some constraints, one of which is we can only have 6 sq. ft. of non-fire rated window along the bedroom wall I'm asking about

    - This would be the only window in the bedroom, wall with the window is 12' long

    - I've drawn the wall and window options to scale, and I don't hate how the smaller window looks, but I understand that the differences between a drawing and the real thing can be significant. My biggest concern would be that if I place the window at 3' above the floor, I'll have 4' above the window with 10' ceilings, and that might look bad


    My options:

    1. Go with the 2x3 window, probably cost around $600

    2. Go with a larger fire rated window (say 4 x 5), at around $7500

    3. Could potentially go with a transom above (thanks kj s for the idea), but the transom would have to be glass blocks, and I'm not sure how this would look


    Ultimately, I know option 2 will look better, I just hate paying $7,500 for a single window. So my question is, at over 10x the cost, will it look 10x better? And are there any other solutions I'm missing?


  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    When was the last time any of you put a window in a fire resistance rated exterior wall of a bedroom in a detached single-family residence (assuming that is what this is)?

    Unless I've misunderstood the OP's cryptic description, the circumstances are so unusual that it would be impossible to offer useful advice without more information. In fact, the OP may be at risk of getting bad advice from well meaning members.

  • PRO
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    "a 2 x 3 window will meet code"

    Which codes will it meet?

  • 5 years ago

    Since that won’t meet code anywhere in the US, or common sense in any other country, we should probably ask what country you are located in. It’s too small to exit from in case of a fire.




  • 5 years ago

    If this is the only wall facing outside I'd take advantage of the 10' ceiling heights to bring in light. I'd place one window at the height necessary to meet the local egress code. Probably towards the back of the room or rear of the house. Then I'd place three windows horizontally as high as practical with framing requirements. I wouldn't be too affected by the exterior facade when you're 5 feet from the neighbor's house.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Table R302.1(1) of the 2015 IRC doesn't require exterior walls or window openings to be fire-resistance rated if the separation distance is 5 ft or more.

    At 3 ft unrated windows can be 25% of the wall area. At less than 3 ft windows are not allowed.

    Fire rated windows might be in the IRC for a multi-family building but I've never seen it.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    For a separation distance of 5 ft, Table 705.8 of the IRC allows unprotected windows to be 10% of the wall area. That increases to 25% if the windows are protected (fire rated glass or shutters). 25% is also allowed without window protection if the building is sprinklered which is the more common solution in the US.

    Even if the building is multi-family under the IRC and the bedroom is 12 ft wide, would that not allow the window size to double?

    EDIT: I had not seen the OP's description when I wrote the above. I assume the project is not in the US or its in a state or municipality that has amended the IRC or the state has its own residential code. The OP should tell us the codes that apply and/or the location. If the architect has made an error it would not be the first time I've seen it. I even made a mistake once.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    The minimum casement window frame size that meets the IRC Emergency Escape and Rescue Opening requirement is 2-4 wide x 3-0 high. Are you using a different code or is your architect mistaken? This may seem like a minor discrepancy but its a 20% increase in glass area and you don't want to be forced to remove and replace the window later.

    This project still seems odd to me.

  • 5 years ago

    Often times more information is better, even necessary. Sometimes it's not. This is one of those times.

    Agree here. The topic drift that often comes with posting whole plans is often unproductive for the poster. One reason I stopped recommending my clients post our plans here.

    When was the last time any of you put a window in a fire resistance rated exterior wall of a bedroom in a detached single-family residence?

    In a 45 year career I can't think of a single instance.


  • PRO
    5 years ago

    I don't think we need to see any drawings in order to say that one 2x3 window in a bedroom with 10 ft. ceilings is inadequate. There won't be enough natural light, and it's unsafe as well. I think your only real option is to go with a much larger window. It will be safer and you will like it much better.


  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    If the IRC applies, the ventialtion area of a 2x3 casement window will restrict the floor area of the bedroom to about 100 s.f.

    Fire resistive wall and window requirements in the IRC are determined by the distance between buildings on adjacent properties rather than the distance to the property line.

    Perhaps there are local fire protection laws, but I would be asking the architect for a written explanation of the requirements.

    I was the zoning and building code reviewer for a major architectural firm for a few years and the mistakes were frequent and almost comical. Even code consultants made mistakes.

  • 5 years ago

    sorry if this is a dumb answer but I don't know if i have enough context... what about three small windows? Still cheaper? You can make a small window look okay, it would be all about curtains, furniture and wall art to balance. Just depends how important saving $ is to you.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    The maximum amount of window openings allowed is most likely based on a percentage of the wall area but without the code reference no one can be sure.

  • PRO
    5 years ago

    A picture is worth a thousand words. Floor plans and exterior elevations explain a lot, and yes probably more information than I would need to answer the OP's question, but it will help me to not to have to play twenty questions to drag the information out of an OP that provides too little information to professionally answer their question. I do not need anybody to tell me what information I need or don't need to answer a question. It was not until after I asked for plans and elevations that we all learned it is the only window in the bedroom, wall with the window is 12' long, and the window will possibly be three feet above the floor; all information that could be answered by looking at the floor plans and exterior elevation.


    When was the last time any of you put a window in a fire resistance rated exterior wall of a bedroom in a detached single-family residence?

    Two years ago.


    The OP owes RES2 a big thank you.

  • 5 years ago

    Thanks again to everyone weighing in on this (especially RES2). For those that are still interested, I've included links to the relevant codes (didn't post the content here since there is too much):

    - https://www.buildingcode.online/1502.html 

    - https://www.buildingcode.online/1504.html 

    - https://www.buildingcode.online/212.html


    My understanding is that in Ontario, limiting distance refers to building distance from the property line, and I am well within 1.2 meters, which means I'm allowed 0% glazing along that entire wall.


    However, because the home (pre-renovation) had a 2' x 3' window, I'm grandfathered and I'm include a normal 2' x 3' window.


    If I want the window to be any larger, it needs to meet a 45 minute fire resistance rating, hence the requirement for a fire rated window, and it's corresponding 10x increase in costs.


    Apparently this is not uncommon in Toronto with the older homes very close together, and people usually go with fire shutters for a cheaper option (or just don't put windows along the sides of the home), but the fire shutters have increased in price dramatically.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Existing non-conforming features in Canada explain the odd circumstances. If there were a requirement for an energency escape window or natural ventilation you might have been able to negotiate a wider window as a compliance alternative but you probably don't have that option in Toronto.

    For help from professional designers, I recommend posting a dimensioned plan of the room with a north arrow and the bed placement, the interior elevation of the wall (which you have apparently drawn but not shared) and some idea of what is visible from the window especially neighbor's windows. Also, tell us who might occupy the bedroom.

    Or you could just center it horizontally and vertically (3.5 ft from the floor) and hang curtains covering 18" or more of the wall on each side of the window jambs.