“The unit leaked a total ~20 lbs of R22.”

That’s a lot of refrigerant! When did you discover this, on Earth Day?

No, you can’t just pour more oil into it. Why would you?

The oil lubricates the compressor.

“Houston, we have a problem”… I think I see a new system in your future.

IMPO

SR

As it turns out R410a leaks even more and according to some just as bad, if not worse.

R22- equipment phase out 2010. Dry units a couple of years past that, so nearly everything installed on these is out of part warranty even on the compressor. It would be mostly pointless to worry about oil for this system.

If you get the oil amount wrong, the compressor will swim in oil and that will kill it too. Just like your car, put in too much oil and you'll drown the engine.

So because R22 equipment is long gone where would you even begin to look to see how much oil this unit might take? Maybe it's on the compressor, maybe it's not. To get the oil amount right, the oil that is currently in it would have to be drained. Simply not worth the trouble.

Need a new unit... that means R410a unit. BUT and this is a big one... that refrigerant (R410a) is on the cusp of being phased out now. 2023 everything begins to change again.

Estimated 2025 -- most likely by then the R410a phase out will be in full swing. This will likely happen even faster in liberal run states. California is driving much of this as by 2023 there will be no new R410a refrigerant installations there, unless there is a lawsuit or something that might derail it, but with Gavin Newsom recently rewinning his seat and Joe in the WH --- and rejoining Paris Climate Agreement, I wouldn't hold your breath.

The new refrigerants: 2 choices, R454B & R32 (both of which are mildly flammable)

R454B is marginally better than R32 and lower than R410a. So as the Kigali Ammendment to the Montreal Protocol takes shape and eventually more restrictive, R32 may be short lived. Eventually R454B will be phased out as well, because it's much worse offender to the environment than Carbon Dioxide is and many are up in arms over burning natural gas and other dino fuels to heat your home with.

I made a starting point video to all of this so you understand better why your vote has consequences to your pocket book. Remember, this video below: Is only the *beginning* to a wide assortment of FUN. Other rammifications: Look at the gas prices when you fill up. Joe did that for you.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

I read the majority of the northern European countries its required to use heat pumps. No new gas furnaces allowed.

My new system is Puron, which I think is 410a. Maybe I'll buy a bottle, how long can that gas sit for? Serious question.

@AIC Thank you for the detailed comment and intro into future development. I was wondering what's happening with R410a.

I have replaced the evaporator and recharged the system (I saved the R22 from previous 2 units) and did not need to pay the hefty price on the replacement refrigerant. The unit is working well, no strange noise heard during startup or operating. Saw a youtube video last night from grayfurnaceman demonstrating no oil was lost when he removed ~3 lbs of refrigerant from a unit in liquid form. I am starting to wonder what I have is refrigerant oil since there is very little sign of it on the duct work. Could it be plasticizer from the try? I noted the plastic material on my torch dark glasses is coated with some sticky substance after 7 years sitting in the garage.

@cobalty2004 Per previous post, the bottle of R22 I recovered from previous units had been sitting for 7 years. There was some minor leakage, probably bad valve.

Folks who'd like a good overview of the HFC phase down and don't have the time or tolerance for a 24 1/2 minute cartoon with political commentary can find it here:

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11779

Lol @ Charles. Youre not kidding. iI couldn’t even make it 10 seconds.

I’m glad I dont live in the Katy, TX area

My new system is Puron, which I think is 410a. Maybe I'll buy a bottle, how long can that gas sit for? Serious question.

There isn't an expiration date, as long as the drum is sealed it will last forever. Same thing in a refrigeration system. But due to a wide variety of factors, systems break down either due to refrigerant leaks, electrical failure, poor maintenance etc and so on.... HVAC systems don't last forever. National Average is about 15 years and in some cases less than that.

So just stocking refrigerant thinking your only problem will ever be freon leaks and needing a recharge isn't quite accurate.

The unit is working well, no strange noise heard during startup or operating. Saw a youtube video last night from grayfurnaceman demonstrating no oil was lost when he removed ~3 lbs of refrigerant from a unit in liquid form.

Well old unit death are often quoted as: "what do you mean it's dead, it was working 5 min. ago?" That is essentially the lingo referring almost the death of anything.

In terms of removing refrigerant without oil depends greatly on the system involved, some systems will create oil traps near service ports in those cases it's impossible to capture refrigerant without some oil loss from said system. Unless of course you have an access port that is higher up in the system, oil always falls to the lowest point. In some situations this may result in "pooling" another term for an oil trap.

Residential systems have no way of monitoring oil levels, let alone whether proper oil return is occurring or not either. If you are losing compressors frequently like every couple of years or so then I would say you likely have a system that is suffering from poor oil return.

There are many things that come into play with proper oil return to the compressor, it's not just the proper amount as this oil is freely distributed thru the system during run time. Things like short cycling, oil traps, improper refrigerant piping among other things like heat dispersion, moisture, air and other non condensibles can all have an effect on the oil in the system. The refrigerant also plays a critical role as well.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

@Austin Air Companie

My inquiry on storing my own bottle of refrigerant was in case I need a recharge 5-6 years from now but all the local HVAC companies tell me I'm SOL due to being phased out. My equipment is warrantied for 10, after that I can replace with whatever is the current fad.

As far as I know there is has been no announced time table of the phase out of R410a refrigerant for residential units. When it is announced, I would expect the phase out would be similar to what was done with R22. The price of R410a containers right now have gone up. You may want to wait until the supply catches up with the demand.

Some countries in Europe as banning new commercial buildings from using natural gas. I don't believe it being enforced on residential housing, but it is likely to happen in the near future. Natural gas in Europe is 3 - 4 times the prices of homeowners pay in the US. This makes the operating costs of heat pumps more attractive.

"California is driving much of this as by 2023 there will be no new R410a refrigerant installations there, unless there is a lawsuit or something that might derail it, but with Gavin Newsom recently rewinning his seat and Joe in the WH --- and rejoining Paris Climate Agreement, I wouldn't hold your breath."

Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction. In April of this year, a number of refrigeration industry trade groups actually petitioned the EPA to set nationwide targets to limit HFCs in air conditioners, refrigerators, and appliances.Among them, the Air Conditioning Heating and Refrigeration Institute (AHRI,) which represents the large manufacturers of air conditioning systems, submitted a petition to make the air conditioning-related parts of California’s new HFC regulations a standard in the U.S. They also petitioned to make the implementation timeline the same as California’s. That aligns the objectives of the biggest players in the industry with at least one important objective of environmental groups. EPA's final rule was issued this past September. The industry got what they asked for.

Don't give up your day job, Ray.

"Natural gas in Europe is 3 - 4 times the prices of homeowners pay in the US."

Sorry, I don't think this is true unless substantial taxes, whole number multiples of the energy cost, are imposed. Link below shows prices from last March. To convert, 1 Therm= 29 kwh. Using Germany as an example, the price was $1.94. In the UK, the price shown was only about 25% higher than what they had for the average US price. On my last bill, I was charged $2.36 per therm.

European gas prices

Yikes! In most recent bill I paid about $0.81 per therm. Maybe I should have excluded California in my statement about US natural gas prices.

Haha, well maybe something else is a work here. $2.36 minutes $.81 = $1.55. Maybe the $2.36 charge is 81 cents for the gas consumed and a $1.55 premium for having weather such that little gas is needed to be consumed.

For whatever reason, our utility rates in coastal NorCal are well above national averages and have been since forever. There are some small municipal systems around (Palo Alto, Santa Clara), and a large one in LA (LADWP) with lower rates but it is what it is. It's part of the reason why solar cells are popular and becoming increasingly so, lots of sunshine and high electricity rates. If I lived somewhere where AC were a 7 day a week requirement for months on end, I'd have them, but I'm in a milder area and the AC only gets occasional use.

Among them, the Air Conditioning Heating and Refrigeration Institute (AHRI,) which represents the large manufacturers of air conditioning systems, submitted a petition to make the air conditioning-related parts of California’s new HFC regulations a standard in the U.S. They also petitioned to make the implementation timeline the same as California’s.

Good for you Charles, covering topics from my cartoon video? Now why do you suppose that MFG's would be on board with such a thing?

I'll give you a hint: $money$ -- the ability to drive sales of new equipment again. It won't stop there either. Because? -- watch the cartoon video -- ha, ha.

My inquiry on storing my own bottle of refrigerant was in case I need a recharge 5-6 years from now but all the local HVAC companies tell me I'm SOL due to being phased out.

There are companies out there that do such things, but there are honest companies out there as well. I am one of them, in Katy, Texas. The con as always is increased cost and prices of materials often times increase repairs cost which make it less effective to repair. Buying your own refrigerant jug *could have unintended consequences* Because I buy refrigerants from known reputable dealers and distributors. You would have to resort to buying these things on line from? who knows? That refrigerant jug you have may not contain what you think it does. As prices go up, scammers are out to do what to you? sell you something you think is a bargain when in all actuality it's not what you bargained for.

R22 freon is phased out & production banned. -- But to this day, there is no restriction on me that says I can't repair an R22 Freon machine. However, due to cost increases of said refrigerant often times it's not worth doing. This greatly depends on what is wrong with the machine in question. It's not alway a refrigerant based repair. Electrical problems can be upwards of 90% of the time a problem, that leads to more problems, which can include refrigerants.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

"Good for you Charles, covering topics from my cartoon video? Now why do you suppose that MFG's would be on board with such a thing?"

With respect to the environment, responsible companies have committed to reducing their carbon footprint, and many of their shareholders are demanding it. Analysts are now rating companies on their ESG (environment, social and governance.) If you look up "carbon footprint" using your favorite Wikipedia source, and they mention something about activated carbon shoe inserts, Ray, that's not it.)

With respect to manufacturers of HVAC equipment, the ones that will thrive in the long run realize their true carbon footprint extends beyond the limits of their shipping docks to their customers-- who will utilize electricity over the lifetime of the installed equipment they sell. By working collaboratively with regulators they are helping to ensure more common-sense legislation.

Meanwhile the refrigerant solution they've chose is still hundreds of times worse than Carbon Dioxide.

Sorry I know when smoke is being blown in my face Charles. They said R410a was environmentally friendly over 20 years ago. Before it even happens I know where this will be in another decade or two...

Since the early days of refrigeration refrigerants have been evolving.

There's a difference between a refrigerant's ozone-depleting potential and it's global warming potential (maybe you can research those on Wikipedia, Ray.) Developing refrigerants that have both low ozone-depleting potential, low global warming potential and which have reasonable levels of other risks (e.g., flammability, explosion potential, toxicity) takes time. R410a was helpful with respect to reducing ozone depletion, but it didn't go as far toward reducing global warming potential. It's time to roll out something that does better with respect to both. The industry is ready to do that and the folks who install and service their systems should follow their lead.

Meanwhile the refrigerant solution they've chose is still hundreds of times worse than Carbon Dioxide.

Sorry I know when smoke is being blown in my face Charles. They said R410a was environmentally friendly over 20 years ago. Before it even happens I know where this will be in another decade or two...

Charles for being a formerly failed Chemical Engineer, demoted to Builder Grade home builder... you should understand that there is a perfectly natural refrigerant that is plentiful has similar characteristics to R22 Freon ( low operating pressures ), can be vented legally and safely to atmosphere.

What is the GWP of propane?

0.072

Propane has a 20-year GWP of only 0.072, much lower than previously assumed, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.Aug 9, 2021

Propane are you nuts? explosions in the back ground.

The technology exists to make this safe... if we were truly interested in BBB "build back better" to make R290, otherwise known as propane the refrigerant of choice for residential based HVAC systems.

Note: Used when propane is used as a refrigerant, it is a different grade than that used for grills, furnace supplied gas and so on. It is refined to refrigerant grade, cleaned of impurities.

This would also service the industry well by getting rid of hacks lest they blow something up thinking "hey this looks like a simple hobby I can do."

There's too much money to be made in the meantime for MFG's and global warming activists to keep spinning this every 20 years or so... when the solution is there already.

The current choices are "mildly flammable" anyway. How flammable? mildly.

So again Charles... I know when smoke is being blown in my face. Do you? I already know the answer to that one... you won't answer it anyway. Builder Grade logic is to deny, deny, deny.

Ray,

I'm sure the folks at ASHRAE, AHRI and any number of refrigerant manufacturers would be delighted to benefit from your considerable knowledge and expertise regarding alternative refrigerants. I suggest you give them a call.

Charles, they in it for the money. Something you can relate to.

Fine dining, Fine accommodations and "contractual obligations".

There's more money in creating a refrigerant than using a natural one. I guess your chemical engineering degree failed to teach you that, so you decided to pick up a nail gun? Asking for a friend.