5:1:1 questions

4 years ago

last modified: 4 years ago

Okay, so I am biting the bullet and ready to move towards the light.

My motivation- I have had petunias and snapdragons (mostly and sometimes other plants) succumb regularly to verticillium/fusarium wilt during the summer. Some survive and live for several years as perennials (indoor/outdoor rotation) but most don't. I have also had a hard time with Dahlias, one year it was broad mites (they also infected peppers, stocks, torenia...) and another year it was root rot. I am not too concerned about potting media for house plants or bigger plants outdoors like roses or clematis (for now) but need improvement in the mix for the smaller ones that go into railing planters and such.

Also, I finally found what appears to be a good source of pine bark at Lowes in Gardenpro pine bark mini-nuggets (at least for now). I first got the Timberline pine bark mulch because it is all that is available locally but quickly realized (for the second time, I tried about 3/4 years back, somethings never change) that there is no pine bark of any kind in it (see pics). I am amazed why Timberline hasn't been sued out of its existence for such outright misrepresentation of its product.

Anyhow, I have a bunch of questions:

1. The pine bark and perlite are both fairly light. In one way, it is good that my railing planters will be much lighter and I can put more media in them. OTOH, my balcony is super windy at least during spring and fall and I am worried that the wind may just uproot and take the plants with it if they aren't sufficiently tightly anchored in the growing medium.

2. Lat year I bought several roses, a camellia and a schefflera from lowes and they were all potted in what appears to be just plain pine bark. (small size). I can't see any perlite or pumice for sure. There is not much discernible peat either. Any idea how they manage to do this?

3. If I am using the 5/1/1 for gardenia or camellia, should I reduce the lime so they have a slightly acidic medium and I don't have to feed acidic fertilizer or water with vinegar to keep them from yellowing?

4. Below are the pics of pine bark mini-nuggets and perlite. I have separated fines by sifting to show their amount in proportion to that of the other sizes and also separated the bigger pine bark for the same purpose. Question -can I get away a) with not sifting the pine bark and/or the perlite for fine/powder; b) leaving the bigger bark in there? Basically, can I just mix them as is and use it as such, possibly by skipping the peat altogether?

5. If the mix is going to be too fast draining can I use 4/2/1 instead (two parts peat or just one part peat and the fines/powder from bark and perlite work as equivalent to another part peat?

6) Am, I correct in presuming that no matter how much I mess up by not sticking to the exact size and ratios, the ultimate result will be better than off the shelf potting mix (MG/Sta-green) mixed with perlite (5/1 or 4/2)?

7) Are the lime pellets (Epsoma) to be mixed and the mix watered and left alone for a couple of weeks? The bark is moist already. Photos to follow.

Featured Answer

gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)

4 years ago

"My question is, how is the one part peat better than the removed small particles of bark?"

That's a valid question and I don't have the answer. I've never had much dust from my bark or even much need to screen so never really paid that much attention as to whether one could substitute freely for the other. Might be worth an experiment :-)

ZM, acidifying with vinegar water is a pretty common practice for those who like to grow acid loving plants but whose irrigation water is alkaline. It's a pretty dilute solution - a tablespoon of table vinegar to a gallon of water - and is harmless. Vinegar can act as a herbicide but it needs to be of a much higher concentration (even undiluted table vinegar is only marginally effective), must be sprayed directly on the foliage and it must be applied with direct sunlight to generate the phytotoxic reaction that kills the plant. Or at least the foliage - roots are rarely damaged.

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Comments (15)

getgoing100_7b_nj
Original Author
4 years ago
The pine bark and perlite
getgoing100_7b_nj
Original Author
4 years ago
Timeline fake pine bark and the lime
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getgoing100_7b_nj
Original Author
4 years ago
Timberline pine bark park up close
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
4 years ago
the ultimate result will be be better than off the shelf potting mix (MG/Sta-green) mixed with perlite (5/1 or 4/2)?

==>>>

im sure mr 4-1-1 ... will chime in with all the answers to your questions ...

i just wanted to point out. that NONE of us like MG stuff .... the only posts we get on such.. are peeps having problems ...

soooooo ... yes... you cant do worse.. and you will probably be very happy with the result ...

ken

ps: over the years... beyond basic media... i had a lot of problems with adding soil amendments into the mix ... as i had to guess with the intial application ... and really had no basis for further manipulation until the plant was in such bad shape... it was a loss ... if it were me.. i would do all my pH etc.. thru watering.. so i had a better ability to manipulate it all ... but alas.. you already have the giant bag of lime .. go for it.. youll learn something .. let us know what that ended up being.. lol ...

pps: and keep in mind.. i didnt have the WWW to figure all the stuff out.. back when i was killing potted plants ... lol .. i earned my green thumb ... lol
getgoing100_7b_nj thanked ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
getgoing100_7b_nj
Original Author
4 years ago
Thanks Ken. Is there a Mr. 4/1/1?

So, you are saying the lime should not be added at the beginning, check pH and adjust as needed? It isn't a giant bag, only the smallest available 6/7 lb, and yet to be opened. I can easily take it back to HD anytime (there will be many trips this spring).
gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
4 years ago
I use the 5-1-1 mix for ALL my containers (except cacti and succulents), indoors or out and have done so for the past 20-25 years. Sift the bark and the perlite. You will get much better results from having a media with the appropriately sized ingredients. It is so worth the effort!

FWIW, when I use the mix for acid loving plants, I skip adding any lime. I use a packaged soil mix (not MG) in place of the peat component and let the buffered pH of that even everything out. And I use composted bark fines, which have a more neutralized pH anyway.
getgoing100_7b_nj thanked gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
getgoing100_7b_nj
Original Author
4 years ago
Hmmm, looks like there will be no shortcuts. :( From appearance, it does look more life mostly composted bark but I am no expert. I guess I will have to be careful with any lime additions.

Question - How are bark fines/powder different from peat? Why remove the former and add the latter?

Also, if I am taking out the bigger pine bark, can I use it to for my orchids? If not, why not?
gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
"Question - How are bark fines/powder different from peat? Why remove the former and add the latter?"

It is the particle size that is critical. You want bark that is approx. 3/16 to 3/8 of an inch. Most commercial peat moss is around 3mm or around 1//4 the size. This is small enough to fill up available pore space and result in the loss of aeration and fast drainage. And is more moisture retentive than bark so also raises the PWT.

"Also, if I am taking out the bigger pine bark, can I use it to for my orchids? If not, why not?"

Yes, Orchids are epiphytes and only need the bark as a root anchorage, not as a growing media. Chunky bark is fine.
getgoing100_7b_nj thanked gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
getgoing100_7b_nj
Original Author
4 years ago
I think my question wasn't clear. Let me try again - the pine bark is supposed to be sifted to remove very small particles (less than 3/16"). Then one is supposed to add 1 part peat for 5 parts of bark (3/16 to 3/8"). My question is, how is the one part peat better than the removed small particles of bark?
zen_man
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
Hello GetGoing,

" 3. If I am using the 5/1/1 for gardenia or camellia, should I reduce the lime so they have a slightly acidic medium and I don't have to feed acidic fertilizer or water with vinegar to keep them from yellowing? "

I have heard that acetic acid (the acid in vinegar) can act as a herbicide.

You might want to research that before applying vinegar.

ZM
getgoing100_7b_nj thanked zen_man
getgoing100_7b_nj
Original Author
4 years ago
Reading some older posts, it appears that there is no sifting of fine dust from pine bark for 5/1/1 mix. Also, the one part peat can be adjusted depending water retention/watering frequency etc. (obviously not to the extent that the purpose of using the mix is defeated.
getgoing100_7b_nj
Original Author
4 years ago
So, I have my first batch of my 5/1/1 ready minus the lime/dolomite. I used 1/2" mesh to remove bigger chunks. The smaller particles/dust appeared to be substantial, probably 1/4 to 1/3 parts of the used pine bark. I shifted out the perlite powder. The mix of pine bark and perlite appeared pretty chunky so I ended up adding the one part peat as well. I used the mix to replace the potting mix for my gardenia. The pH of the tap water is somewhere between 6-7 on a pH paper test and it's the same for a slurry of the pine bark and the final mix. One thing that is bothering me a little is that after I flushed the newly potted medium thoroughly till it was running more clear than muddy, the water kept running out of the bottom for a long while and is still trickling out now that I have it sitting slightly tilted on the saucer.
getgoing100_7b_nj
Original Author
4 years ago
Pics
mblan13
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
It's best to make the 5-1-1 by the book till you get the look, feel and hang of it. I have a local product that is labeled Soil conditioner. I use it straight from the bag without sifting and omit the peat because I am very familiar with 5-1-1 and can "eyeball" it. I am doing an experiment with my modified 5-1-1 and miracle grow soil. The salvia are in OMG sun (full sun on steroids) an in a windy spot. I water them at sunup and they will start to wilt when I get home at 5pm in 90+ F weather (and high wind). I'm in a very windy location and have had to wire plants into the pot as you would wire in a bonsai. I also top dress with the 1/2 inch + pine bark particles and or gravel, marble/granite chips etc.
getgoing100_7b_nj thanked mblan13