I don't know the answer, but I would not grow clovers around the roses because they attract rabbits to my yard.

@Feiy (PNWZ8b/9a) That's more free fertilizer for my roses :)

I haven't done it purposely, but there are various types of clover at the base of a few of my roses. I certainly couldn't say if it does anything for them or not, but I like clover so I won't be removing it.

@Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b) If you want to take a photo of the clover it would be interesting to see it.

Okay, I'll be back in a month or two with pictures of everything awake lol.

That sounds like a good idea - taproots which bring other nutrients down into the soil, and provide organic matter when they decay. But this part about nitrogen - why do you think it’s not fine just as it is, and exactly what about nitrogen needs remediation?

@rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ) The roses live on top of a giant network of roots from large trees. I saw great improvements in health from compost and fertilizer, but that all proceeds very slowly. I strongly suspect the tree roots are sapping most of the nutrition out of the deep soil.

Can I plant clover seeds directly into garden waste compost, and then let the seedling figure out on its own how to get its root into the real clay soil?

I am trying clover myself,in the hopes that it will help the soil,and work as a living mulch. My garden is just too big for me to be able to mulch it all in the traditional manner,so I'm hoping to use clover in the pathways, as well as in the wilder,more impervious areas where I have large, mature climbing roses growing. But I've only just begun this project; only got 2 smallish areas started out,so I can't comment on the success of the idea.

I have a lot of clover in my yard. Not intentionally. Clover would be great if it didn't flower. Looks like grass from a distance. I know it fixes nitrogen into the soil, but I don't think it adds much. I have to fertilize my yard every year. Even in areas with a lot of clover. And the soil where the clover grows isn't good. Probably why I have clover there and not grass. There has to be much better ways to improve the soil than growing clover.

I do tillage radish in my veggie garden. Seed it in the early Fall and by the time it gets a killing freeze there are huge radishes under the soil. Those radishes decompose over winter (in my climate anyway) and this Spring my soil is so soft.

Ashely - that sounds marvelous! Such a good idea!

I don't think either radish or clover would die over winter in Westes climate. Clover is perennial and would need to be cut down to form a green manure/mulch. Like any hardy perennial, the roots would regrow unless dug in and killed. While the plant is alive no nitrogen is released into the soil. That only happens when the root nodules decompose. Radish would overwinter and bolt to flower the following year.

I have to agree with floral. Both the clover and the radish have the potential to be rather aggressive and weedy and not items I would add to a cultivated garden. Mulching with compost will achieve the same end result (although perhaps not as rapidly) and will still provide a neat and tidy weedless appearance.

Gardengal, we all have different aesthetics. Some of my clover is "crimson clover" which I happen to find very pretty, and I love it with grasses and other small, spring blooms. It fits my garden, though it may not fit everyone's design. I don't consider my garden to be "weedy" with the negative connotation you imply.

"It is often used for roadside erosion control, as well as beautification, however it tends to eliminate all other desirable spring and early-summer species of native vegetation in the area where it is planted."

Pretty good definition of weedy in my book!

🤷🏽‍♀️ that's not been my experience with it in my garden, not to mention that there are plenty of different varieties of clover and not all spread as aggressively as others.

Moving aesthetics aside, the question is will the taproot of the Clover compete with the rose for nutrients, or would the taproot somehow help to move nutrients from the surface to the soil around the taproots? Per @floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK it sounds like the only way to get the Clover to help feed other plants is to kill it?

"the question is will the taproot of the Clover compete with the rose for nutrients,"

While the clover is alive and growing, yes. As will any other plant planted in the immediate vicinity. Whether this is an issue depends on the rose, how well it is established and the other plant(s).

As to the second question, not to any significant degree, if it all. Nutrients tends to stay in place unless disturbed or soluble/leached and the roots travel to them rather than the other way around.

@gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9) So the only nutrient contribution of the Clover to the roses at the root level will be nitrogen, after the Clover is killed and the organic matter of the taproots decompose?

Yes. But all the growth would contribute organic matter, not just the roots. Try searching under 'green manure' rather than 'groundcover'. There's lots of information.

The radish idea sounds great, but here in Tuscany I wonder if it would die off, since we're probably something like a "zone 8 or 9".

Actually, I want stuff that's "rather aggressive and weedy" to do my living mulch! I've got so many weeds that are so ugly,aggressive and tall that I need something pretty "macho" to compete.However my own plan is to use the clover (it's supposed to be dwarf clover) on the pathways and in areas where the roses are already big and mature and used to competing with the uglier and more unruly weeds that I already have. I would NOT try clover as an underplanting for the new implants or for floribundas, etc-just around ramblers and their ilk.

I doubt radish would die in Tuscany. In the UK it can be persistent and farmers have to spray it off with a herbicide in Spring if they want to sow a crop.

Yes, I'm thinking it probably wouldn't die off by itself in places where you don't get a good freeze. If I remember right it took a temp of below 32* to really kill it. In our zone by springtime it was long dead and I easily tilled it in last week.

How about sweet potatoes instead of radishes? In an article I saw on Internet, it says that you should definitely harvest them before frost kills off the vines, otherwise the tubers will rot. We DO get frost here...

Is there any sunny spot in your garden that is further away from the tree roots that you could eventually move your roses to?

I love clover in my lawn and I use cover crops in my veggie garden, but unless someone suggests a different idea that sounds like it would work well, personally, I'd see the clover as something I would be pulling out around the roses. MMagpie and the crimson clover sounds nice.

For improving the soil around the roses, I use organic compost and organic alfalfa meal in early spring and then again before the second round of blooms start. I find that working well for me. If I was really questioning whether the soil was good enough, I might think of moving the rose bed after using the lasagna method to create a new bed and waiting for that to break down and be ready to plant. Not sure how long I waited last time I made a lasagna bed, but I found the soil in that bed to be very very good.

I agree that the tree roots suck a lot of moisture and nutrition out of the soil. I have Maples and Spruce roots interfering with my veggie garden in the same way. It gets discouraging.

Westes,

Have you ever looked into growing Dwarf Comfrey, Symphytum grandiflorum, as a soil buster, nutrient builder, and all around tough as nails perennial? It blooms in spring on 24" flower stalks, but at other times should make a dense ground cover at about 12" high.

My only concern is that it may not be permanent in your zone 9, but melt out. Also, if it does thrive for you, it may invade your roses' root zones and be a challenge to keep in bounds.

Only a thought perhaps worth investigating.

Moses

westes Zone 9b California SF Bay Peaceful Valley has a number of cover crops/green manure for CA including clover. Diakon radish works really well over winter, but you'll have to pull it. Fava beans also work over winter and can get huge and weed whacked or pulled.

Summer pink Buckwheat is lovely and will die with frost . Alyssum is also lovely, reseeds ok and plays nice with roses. My roses did not mind the smaller cosmos and China asters. Parsley is deep rooted and my roses don't mind.

Shorter border dahlias would add lots of organic matter, if they died, but at zone 9, you might have them come back, depending on the wetness of the winter. I would be temped to order border ones from Brent and Becky's and some singles. Let the singles seed or collect and sow yourself for next year. I have also put in potatoes, but they really hate clay.

Peonies don't mind tree roots too much nor clay, but don't water and they will eventually break up and area. I plant my peonies with soil just barely covering them. You could even get the cheapest walmart mixed.

I do all these in different parts of my yard/garden and try new things all the time because nothing seems to work perfectly and if it did, I can't get it this year or it died or something ate it.

Epic Gardener tilled his beds 1 time and found it really paid off. Jim Putnam just used compost and mulch after 2 years it was good. Both clay soil and youtubers.

What happened? I thought people were going to post pics of clover and their roses? Did it not work out or did you guys forget. I was hoping to see some.... It sounded very pretty