They're the same. Compare the spec sheets. I found Carrier, Bryant, Tempstar.

ICP Brands (owned by Carrier).

If I remember correctly, I ordered a Heil packaged heat pump but received the equivalent Carrier product because that's what was available at the distributor (during the pandemic there was a supply shortage).

My concern is if the Carrier Infinity communicating thermostat (and furnace) will recognize an ICP heat pump when it does its setup scan. I have not got a straight answer from the dealers yet. It sounds like the Bryant unit would work since the Carrier and Bryant units are basically identical. However, even though the specs are the same, there are differences between the Carrier/Bryant units and the IPC units.

Do you have a communicating thermostat? If so, what brand?

Thanks

Are the Heil, etc. thermostat and the Carrier thermostat compatible? Dunno. I have the Honeywell T10 Pro thermostat but my packaged heat pump is only a two-stage unit.

How old is the 25HNA660A and what is wrong with it? If the equipment was registered properly it should have a 10 year parts warranty. If that is the case it may be worth repairing.

I don't think you will get an answer about mixing equipment brand labels and communicating thermostats. This something that is not tested by the various divisions of ICP.

My 25HNA660A is 13 years old and has the "infamous" Bristol 2 stage compressor. I was told I was lucky it made to this far. From my point of view I would have been luckier if it had failed under warranty like a lot of them did. There are no replacement compressors for my outside unit. The advantage of that compressor is its output on low stage was 50% of high stage. I have a zoned system and one zone is at the lower limit of of the low stage output. The low stage output on newer 2 stage outside units is about 70% of high stage. If I go with a 5 stage unit it will be able to stage down to meet the requirement of the small zone but now I will also need to replace the evaporator. And it may not be compatible with my furnace or may only be able to configured for 2 stages.

There is only one Carrier dealer that services my area and he is not known for his competitive prices. I like to get at least 2 bids and preferably 3 for a job like this.

"There is only one Carrier dealer that services my area and he is not known for his competitive prices."

I'd recommend that. When I was replacing my packaged heat pump, I got three quotes and found wide disparities among them. Why not get prices from one of the Carrier options and, if the prices are substantially lower but the thermostat is incompatible with the old equipment (i.e., not Bryant), switch to a two-stage thermostat?

The 3rd party thermostats (i.e., Honeywell, etc.) aren't as good with dual fuel systems as the OEM thermostats are. The OEM systems do better with dual fuel switchovers and setback recoveries. Additionally, my wiring is 4 wire and that isn't sufficient for non-communicating systems.

As far as I have found so far, the Bryant and Carrier systems are pretty interchangeable. This isn't true for the ICP units.

"The 3rd party thermostats (i.e., Honeywell, etc.) aren't as good with dual fuel systems as the OEM thermostats are. The OEM systems do better with dual fuel switchovers and setback recoveries."

Interesting. It would be interesting to see where that's been measured and reported.

I contacted Honeywell to see if they had a thermostat that would work with my system. They said their thermostats are not compatible with Carrier zoning control and I would need to replace the zoning control board, thermostats in the zones, and some wiring. Additionally, there are currently no 2 stage condenser units (at least that I can find) that have the low stage 50% of high stage (as my current unit does) so I need to use a 5 stage or variable stage unit. Honeywell doesn't have any thermostats that do more than 2 stages.

Ah, "not compatible" means "not as good". I can think of a lot of things that rule applies to.

Yeah those bristol compressors were a joke on those 2 speeds from Carrier / Bryant. I doubt they were any different on down the line to the Heils or Comfort Maker models on the ICP. That would be too costly for a manufacture to do that. Much easier to make a box and stick a different sticker on it and maybe a different shade of paint.

So because you have Carrier zoning it's yet another proprietary scheme to lock out competitors, because nothing is going to "play nice" with that. Well unless it's got that Carrier name and they haven't decided to force it into obsolecence.

If you go to the 5 speed Inverter condenser I question the thought that there is some difference from ICP to Bryant to Carrier.

Why would they do it to ICP and not Bryant? That's a whole lot of cost to do crap like that, a manufacturer isn't going to go to that trouble in my opinion.

Then you have the dealer conundrum which is separate from the manufacturer and distributor. They all looking to get paid. If it doesn't pay them to do what you suggest? Well? Think about it. If you got your info from a source like this? Not hard for me to connect the dots to "passing Go" if you know what I am saying....

Somebody anybody you call comes out there see's this proprietary bonanza you got going out there... they know you are stuck. It took money to put you in that mess, it will take money to take you out of it.

Also it's truly a hard stretch of the imagination to call a 5 speed machine an inverter, because they cripple it at the control level. A true AC inverter should have over 60 different speeds. Then find one without proprietary controls to run it, because those things (communicating systems) are mostly bad.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

My 25HNA660A is 13 years old and has the "infamous" Bristol 2 stage compressor. I was told I was lucky it made to this far. From my point of view I would have been luckier if it had failed under warranty like a lot of them did. There are no replacement compressors for my outside unit. The advantage of that compressor is its output on low stage was 50% of high stage.

I also own 13 year old Carrier condensers which have the Bristol 2-stage compressors. So far there have been no failures. I can tell you the low stage is not of your heat pump is not 50%. It is in the 60-65% range. I tried look for the product data manual for the 25HNA660A but so far I have had no luck. If you bought a 2-stage heat pump it will like have a reciprocating compressor which the low stage will be about 70% of the total. Was a load calculation ever done to determine you need a 5 ton heat pump? Perhaps if you reduced it to 4 ton it would get you closer to the current low stage operating point.

I recommend you not replace your Infinity modulating zone dampers so you can use a Honeywell thermostat. It would be very expensive and not work as well.

If I go with a 5 stage unit it will be able to stage down to meet the requirement of the small zone but now I will also need to replace the evaporator.

Why does the coil have to be replaced if you installed the Carrier Infinity 18VS Greenspeed heat pump? Your current refrigerant is R410a so I would be curious to know the reason for the replacement.

The Bristol unit I have is the reversing "Twin Single" which runs in the opposite direction in high stage by reversing the Run and Start windings. It has two equally sized pistons with the low stage piston always connected to the crankshaft and the high stage piston only turning with the crankshaft when the motor reverses.

My compressor is running in low stage but has no output (low side pressure = high side pressure). In high stage it has output but the low side is higher than it should be and the high side is lower than it should be. This suggests there is something wrong with the low stage cylinder. The strange thing about it is the pressures equalize slowly when the compressor stops. One would think that if there is something wrong with the valves that is bad enough to have no output on low stage then the pressure would equalize rapidly. If you have any ideas what could cause this other than the compressor I'd be interested in hearing about it.

My Title 24 calculations are as follows:

Total Heating Load (Btu/hr): 77,351

Sensible Cooling Load: 45,047

Design Cooling Capacity: 53,507

This was done when my my house was first built with 2120 sf finished space and 900 sf unfinished in a walkout basement area. I have since finished half the unfinished space (long story) and that is the 3rd zone. Eventually the whole 3rd zone will be finished.

I've been told that if I replace my 2 stage heat pump with a 5 speed heat pump that the coil needs to be matched to the new heat pump. They will not honor the warranty if I don't match the coil to the heat pump.

Has the Carrier dealer determined if it is a compressor issue and given you a quote to repair it? I would expect it is going to be expensive and at 13 years old is probably not worth it.

They will not honor the warranty if I don't match the coil to the heat pump.

What coil do you currently have, and what coil would be required for the 5 speed heat pump? Is "They" the Carrier dealer? Is he saying he won't honor the 1 year labor warranty and the 10 year parts warranty from Carrier? Has the dealer explained what bad things will happen if the coil is not replaced?

What is your location? This is will indicate whether the size of the house and load calculations make sense. Is this a 13 year old house? I am a bit suspicious of the numbers. Perhaps you should do a proper load calculation and see if a 4 ton heat pump would be sufficient for the cooling load. Then you could purchase an Carrier Infinity or Performance (or Bryant equivalent) 2-stage heat pump, keep the current coil, and be close to the capacity of your current low stage.

Are you planning to live in this house another 10 years? If so then consider replacing the furnace with a 95% efficiency model with the coil. If you took that route then you may not need the heat pump and just get an AC condenser. You could choose Carrier Infinity or possibly Performance equipment which would compatible with your current thermostats and zoning control board and dampers. Hopefully the Carrier dealer will sit down with you and review the possible options.

The local Carrier dealer does things his way or the highway. He wouldn't quote replacing the compressor (although I could probably find someone to replace it) nor would he quote installing a 5 stage heat pump but running it as a 2 stage pump. I don't know what coil I have, I can't find it in the paperwork and can't see a tag on it (not much of it is visible). I'm working on getting some quotes from a Bryant dealer but he is of a similar opinion. But it sounds like he would be a little more flexible.

My zip code is 95633 and the house is 13 years old and I plan on staying here for at least 10 years (unless it burns down). I agree that I could probably get away with a 4 ton 2 stage heat pump although the current one did struggle on the coldest winter days and wound up switching to propane. Cooling is not a problem.

I have solar panels and am a net producer which means that electricity is far more cost effective than propane. I would only save $0.03 for every kWh that a more efficient heat pump system would yield. I try to avoid using propane whenever I can. It is only used during the defrost cycle or when the heat pump can't keep up. I'd get rid of the propane furnace if it weren't for the power outages. We were without power for 5 days last winter but were able to keep warm running the furnace off a portable generator. There is no way I'd be able to do that with an all heat pump system.

"If you go to the 5 speed Inverter condenser I question the thought that there is some difference from ICP to Bryant to Carrier.

Why would they do it to ICP and not Bryant? That's a whole lot of cost to do crap like that, a manufacturer isn't going to go to that trouble in my opinion."

I've now had two ICP dealers (Day & Night) now tell me that their systems (Ion) won't communicate with the Carrier/Bryant (Infinity/Evolution) systems. I suspect they all use the same communication protocol and, as you say, it would be costly to create and maintain separate protocols but they block the Carrier/Bryant systems from recognizing the Ion systems. As far as I can tell, Carrier and Bryant are completely interchangeable.

I'd stick with a 2 stage condenser. I find that 70% is quite a drop from 100% and your existing furnace blower will probably work with it better than a 5 stage.

They will not honor the warranty if I don't match the coil to the heat pump.

What coil do you currently have, and what coil would be required for the 5 speed heat pump? Is "They" the Carrier dealer? Is he saying he won't honor the 1 year labor warranty and the 10 year parts warranty from Carrier? Has the dealer explained what bad things will happen if the coil is not replaced?

There are many mfgs that provide bonus warranty protection for a limited time (ICP is one of them) if the E-coil and condenser (HP same difference) are replaced at the same time. It's more or less another "incentive" to spend money for protection that I have never witnessed being needed. I've had one compressor fail around year four on a condenser I installed ( a single compressor in about 14 years of running my own company), but it had multiple part failures prior to that so highly unlikely it was anything I did. Under a 4 year failure --- a two year replacement guarantee will do nothing. (it only kicks in if the compressor fails) . I've replaced litterally hundreds of condensers only and many of those installs I have never gone back, not even a maintenance check.

So as busy as I can be sometimes, I am always looking for new work. Whether it's one piece or two? a complete system, zoning etc. It doesn't matter to me. Obviously only the pieces I replace are covered by any warranty and depending what happens and the time in which it does will likely have some out of pocket expense. Mfgs only cover parts, they don't cover labor, refrigerant, freight, diagnosing and so on.

As an example: The Mfgs may give you a 1 or 2 year condenser replacement if the compressor fails within the first or 2nd year when the E-coil was replaced at the same time. That doesn't include labor to remove and install a new condenser *if* the compressor were to fail. So if you're not using someone good? They could be creating their own work.

Of course I do all my own install work, so if a compressor was to fail within that 2 year window? I'd start questioning my methods.

Some companies do not have the technical talent for diagnosing, it's about sell, sell, sell to keep their employees busy with piece work. There's more money in replacing more equipment so they simply don't get involved in 1 piece here and there mentality.

There's plenty of wording within the warranty documents that allow companies to make the choices they make. (doing or not doing singular piece work) To me it's likely the skill level of those behind the work. I live in a hot climate so I could easily make that choice if I really want to, but I chose to provide *SERVICE* -- meaning you have someone to get you out if / when things go bad. Regardless of what may or may not be covered by a mfg warranty. No where in there should you think any of this is free. Mfgs don't pay me, the customer that calls me pays the bill.

To me it doesn't matter. I provide solutions the customer picks and chooses once they have a clear understanding of what their *best* choices are.

In this thread... the better choice would be to exit the Carrier / ICP mantra for something that would play nice with the existing equipment. That choice requires skill and know how. An 60+ speed inverter that would run circles around a 2 stage or even 5 stage for that matter -- with no odd off cycle hissing noises either.

Common over night temp. lows are in the 60's / 70's --- that's quite a drop off from 95F to 100F+ during the summer days for my climate. Your unit is over sized at 70% capacity in first speed at 60/70F OAT. A more mild climate makes this even worse.

They tell you that sizing is important don't they? Humidity is the other wild card.

I service the Katy, Texas area.