I love Emily Post for decoding these things.

https://emilypost.com/advice/black-tie-dress-code

A black-tie optional dress code gives guests a couple of formal options to choose from. Men are requested to wear a tuxedo, but can opt for a dark suit. Women can choose either a formal evening gown, a shorter cocktail dress, or dressy separates.

Black Tie Optional for Women

• Formal (floor length) evening gown
• Dressy cocktail dress
• A “little black dress”
• Dressy separates

Black Tie Optional Men

• Tuxedo (see “Black Tie” above)
• Dark suit, white dress shirt, and conservative tie
• Leather dress shoes and dark dress socks

Sounds like tux or dark suit for your husband and either a gown or dressy cocktail dress for you.

My least favorite dress code. Ask the family who is wearing black tie specifically. My cousin's wedding was black tie optional and I felt bad that I had my husband wear his tuxedo. Only the wedding party wore black tie. I wore a cocktail dress. I often wear a cocktail dress when my husband weard black tie. A gown is only required for white tie.

That's a great point @Zalco/bring back Sophie! to do some inquiry to find out who is actually wearing tuxes and gowns. I wonder if couples do this so they can have a fancy wedding where the wedding party is dressed black tie but they don't want to force guests to rent tuxes or buy gowns.

Grew up with Emily Post on a bookshelf. Always good to have as a reference. I would also say that it depends a little on the time of day. The original E.P. book (I think younger folks have revised the original somewhat) used 6:00 pm as the start of a formal occasion, so if the weddings are in the evening, I would go full-on black tie and long gown. Bear in mind that I grew up where there were pretty serious etiquette/what is proper rules. Ha. If they are earlier, say 4 or 5 pm, I might wear a dressy shorter dress and let DH wear a dark suit. You can take the girl out of the Main Line, but can't quite take the Main Line out of the girl. Sigh. Sorry.

Black tie optional can also mean please no jeans with holes in themm

Cyn, you are making me feel awful about wearing cocktail dresses to black tie events. But, you are absolutely right.

The last two weddings I went to were black tie optional.

One was at the Cathedral Chapel with reception following at The Ritz-Carlton and breakfast following the next day. Even that one meant dark suits for most men with very few tuxes. I wore a black suit and a plain silk tie. It did sort of make sure everyone was nicely dressed. Still a few ill-fitting lighter suits though.

The second one was an onsite nondenominational ceremony at an upscale but not formal venue. As was said above in this case "Black Tie Optional" indicated to people to not wear their best golf shirt or athleisure set. It's usually the men who need to be corralled into wearing something decent. The bride at the second wedding told me that some of her relatives said "If I really gotta wear a tux I ain't comin'".

I feel the word optional let's you off the hook when it comes to gowns and tuxedos. The majority of guests will not be in gowns or tuxedos.

It is informing guests that bridal party will be dressed that way.

Zalco, what were the majority wearing?

The last we went to was black tie optional, but they made a point of saying they wanted all the guests to be comfortable. Men wore charcoal gray or black suits, the majority of the women wore short cocktail.

I agree with eld. It is rare around here to see a wedding where guests wear gowns and tux (outside of the wedding party).

Eld, the majority were wearing dark suits and cocktail dresses. My husband kinda looked like a waiter ;-)

Noooo, Zalco! Not my intention at all. I bet you always look perfect and really, this isn't my mother's or grandmother's era any more, thank goodness!

Thanks everyone - although I may be more confused than ever, ha ha! I'm pretty sure my DH could get away with a dark suit at the October wedding because it starts at 5pm and is at a winery. The March event will definitely be more formal. I think the bride and groom want black tie but don't want to be that restrictive to their guests.

My DH is not a suit guy and, while he has sports coats, he really only owns two suits. One is navy and the other beige linen he wore to a a destination beach wedding. He clearly needs another option and if a tux works for both, I'd rather he buy that. But I don't want him to look like a waiter!! But I also don't want him underdressed for either. I really feel like it will be easier for me as I can wear cocktail and fabric can dictate formality. This is trickier than I expected...

I’ll bet none of you have looked down on other guests’ wedding attire if they’ve made an effort to look nice, so don’t judge yourselves too harshly. Even men in ill-fitting lighter colored suits made an attempt. Not everyone can afford a new suit or gown and I’m sure the bride and groom appreciate those who show up to celebrate their day.

Oly - you are absolutley correct. Neither of these couples would judge any of their guests on the basis of what they wore to their wedding. But because they are so lovely and we are close family, I am trying hard to ensure we reflect the kind of wedding they want to have. I'm not really sure it matters, but I don't think I would consider a tux and gown if they were not our nieces getting married. Am I overthinking this?

No! I would totally get fancy for these weddings! I was just trying to say that those who worried that they hadn’t dressed appropriately according to Emily Post, that surely no one took note of their attire in a judgemental way.

Well on the one hand, of course you are not going to judge someone who makes an effort to get dressed for your reception even if it is a suit that does not fit that well.

On the other hand, you are attending an event that has probably been at least a year in the planning and may have cost the bride and groom an incredible amount of effort and money.

The numbers I am hearing for weddings recently are $75,000, 100,000, $150,000. Easily $100-200 a person. I agree that it's gotten ridiculous, I get that. But,do you really want to "just show up" to an event like that? I feel like a lot of men get off the hook of barely having to try at all because just "showing up and sharing the joy" is supposed to be more than enough. Where is the Guest's effort in all of this? Just getting out of bed in the morning and wearing something a little nicer than what you would wear to hang out around the house really should not be enough.

Pal, I agree with you for myself, but who am I to judge others or the way they dress for someone else’s wedding?

Cyn, I absolutely know you were not trying to make anyone feel badly. I am a stickler for such things as a rule, and should know better.

The book on our shelf was not Emily Post, though, it was Le Savoir Vivre by Larousse (collectif). The rules match up pretty neatly. ❤️

Well, unless I know there are extenuating circumstances (and I know there are), I am going to look at someone who comes to a semi formal wedding in a golf shirt and chinos as someone who cares much more about themselves, about making no effort, and getting a free meal than they do about respecting the bride and groom. Sure as hell I am going to be judging them. I think we have gotten away from judging people for being self-absorbed a----es and it just enables that sort of behavior more and more. Maybe if they got judged a little more, it would not be becoming such a commonplace attitude.

Well, as nice as these couples are, I'm pretty sure even they would judge anyone who showed up at their wedding in a golf shirt and chinos. I mean...we aren't animals :)

I think the request/requirement is, as noted above, to ask people to please wear something nice and not jeans with holes in them which I think is insulting.

And if the bride and groom want to spend $75000+ on a wedding that's on them. I shouldn't be forced to go and spend $$+ on a one-use dress for a 3 hour party.

These types of requirements really set me off. It seems to assume that your friends and family aren't smart enough to figure out from the location of the event or the event itself being a wedding what one should wear.

DS1 just got married - it was a weekend wedding with 21 people at a lakeside resort and they sure didn't spend $50,000+ but you know what - everyone knew that it was a wedding and proper respect was shown and all the men wore dress suits and all the women wore cocktail dresses. We did not have to be told what to wear.

Anyway - wear what you and your DH will be comfortable wearing and if that includes wearing what they require then so be it or if it means wearing something that will fit the spirit of the requirements then so be it.

No, you were not raised in a barn ;)

Haha, true rubyclaire and I’m sure your nieces will love having you beautifully attired for their weddings!

Well, people do. I went to wedding that was not formal, but there was a guy in plastic flip flops.

It's interesting that we have to resort to using "Black Tie Optional" not so much because we actually expect or even want the guests to spring for a tux or a formal gown but that we want to signify without potentially offending the biggest offenders we have in mind, to Please make at least some sort of effort to not show up to my wedding in whatever you put on in the morning. I think it's a sad commentary that you have to wheedle certain people in those ways.

And there is always the option to just not go to a reception if you feel offended by there being a suggestion as to what you are supposed to wear, which isn't likely even directed at you. It's not like there was a direction of how much they expect you to spend on the gift, which apparently some bride and groomzillas now do.

I guess I live in a different world. Jim has never owned a suit in his life, and made do with a navy blazer. I wore an undistinguished long black velvet skirt with a scoop neck long sleeve top to company holiday parties maybe 5 or 6 times. Same outfit, nice jewelry. If we were invited to a fancier wedding, there's no way Jim would buy a dark suit. And I have no dresses or skirts, but a pair of black slacks with some sort of top .

I'd probably explain to the hosts, not attend and give a larger cash gift.

I really do appreciate that people have different responses to weddings - degree of formality, expense, etc. To be clear, these are very important people in our lives and I absolutely want to add to the festivities by dressing the part - whether that is a dark suit or tux, cocktail dress or gown. There will be expenses and a little shopping anxiety and I'm okay with that. More than okay - actually looking forward to it! After two years in my yoga pants and tops, a chance to dress up is a welcomed opportunity! Just have to figure out whether DH gets a tux or a black suit and I get a LBD or gown!!

I’m trying to think of a wedding where I was surprised the number of men guests who wore tuxes, so in professional occupations it might be more common than you think.

gscience, do you think maybe it's because you are in the South? In California, dressing up among professionals from executives, lawyers, doctors and such still is pretty casual, says a girl who loves dressing up and is usually in danger of being overdressed, which is a huge faux pas in my world, looks like you are actually trying, so petit bourgeois!

PS That is me. I am petit bourgeoise and proud of it.

The south is pretty dressy. If you say it’s black tie or black tie optional (or even if you don't specify, and its an evening wedding) most men will wear a tuxedo. I feel like women tend to be more on the casual side for black tie weddings. You’ll see more cocktail dresses than gowns.

I live in rhe South. From my experience, at least as far as the weddings I’ve attended, it is much better to overdress than underdress. People appreciate the effort the guest made in wearing a tux/gown. I mean, unless you are getting married in a barn with a hoedown as the entertainment, I’m hard pressed to think of a situation where a tux wouldn’t look appropriate. Weddings aee big deals-at least to the couple and families involved-and I think it is always good manners to put care, thought, and effort into what you wear to these events.

If you do buy a tux, it will turn out that there are all sorts of occasions to wear it. Case in point: my son bought a tux for his wedding. A year or so later, he met us at the airport wearing his tux. This may deserve an explanation. He was going to an ambassadorial reception after he met us at the airport.

I’m in the South (all my life). i have been to some upscale weddings, but tux and gowns are not the norm in our area.

Black-tie-optional is speaking to the least common denominator in apparel choices. There are sharp, classic dark suits and lovely cocktail dresses that would work for guests. But since this is your family, and since you have some time, I would reach out to your nieces, as well as other family members, to gauge what they would like you to wear for these very special occasions.

My DH has made do on numerous cruise ship formal nights and a couple of weddings, with a black suit and a tux shirt. I sew, so he has a collection of cummerbund/bow tie sets. Nobody notices that it's not a tux.

Last wedding I went to said formal attire...glad I asked as even the groom wasn't in a tux. We would've been way out of place had he worn a tux and I a gown. Turns out the bride just wanted people to dress up and not wear jeans and shorts.

I'd definitely ask those in the know as to how formal the bride is thinking. My guess would be dark suit for guys, cocktail dress for gals would be fine. But check to be sure. You certainly want to be comfortable at both events.

From a formal daytime wedding, groomsmen in tuxes, male guests in suits and ties, and then there's this guy...I think that's what the brides these days are trying to avoid...

Thanks again all - I knew I would get good suggestions here. I should add that neither of these couples have indicated dress requirement on the invitation. One has a wedding site that includes the "dress code" for each event and the other has not sent out invites yet but I know the venue and that they want a black tie event but may go with "optional".

These weddings will both take place in the south. I actually was surprised to find the dress code information on the one couple's wedding website. Rehearsal dinner says "cocktail" and wedding says "black tie optional" so it was that distinction that made me think we might need more formal dress than I originally thought. I certainly can ask the brides or my SIL's but, I may be projecting here, I don't want them to read into that some lack of desire to dress black tie. I do have time and more clarity may emerge.

I really think even thoughtful people now do need some sort of guideline because so many decisions that used to be almost innate as to what was sort of expected in certain situations have become confusing and many things are a do whatever you want free-for-all.

There are restaurants here where the cost per head at the end of a normal night easily tops $100 without even trying, who have to indicate that tank tops or flip flops, sweat pants or cutoffs are not appropriate wear for the dining room, and they've gotten flak for it. The entitled attitude is now more like "I've got the money to pay so I should be able to eat naked in your establishment if I feel like it."

Pal, along those lines. Oldest DD treated us to a surprise dinner for my birthday. We are in an upscale town in Florida.

Everyone was dressed nicely, but certainly not the caliber I expected for a fine dining restaurant.

DH hates getting dressed up so being able to go in dress shorts and a collored polo works for him.

I always agonize only to see that it never is worth it to do so. I am always fine, usually somewhere in the middle.

Annie that picture reminds me of my wedding. It was a small event but in a lovely restaurant on the water.

My oldest sister has issues with being appropriatly dressed. Whenever I hosted a special part called for dressing up, I would always tell her what I was wearing.

She wanted her sons to wear sneakers! I said sorry, no. Get cheap dress shoes and after the photos, feel free for them put on sneakers.

They are both professionals and could certainly afford even really good shoes.

Interesting discussion….when I was younger people knew what to wear to weddings by the time of day and wording on the invitation. Since most ceremonies were performed in a church or synagogue people wore clothing that respected the church tradition. I had a special lace headband with a small cap to wear to Roman Catholic weddings —as a guest with my family— before I was old enough to wear a hat like my mother, even though we were not Catholic ourselves.

After six o’clock it was understood to be a black tie event without anyone having to decode the circumstances. Sometimes the wedding was in church in the afternoon and the reception was hours later at a club, which gave everyone time to go home and change from church clothes to dress up.

And no one had to buy anything specifically for a wedding unless they just wanted to, because everyone likely to be invited to it would already have the right clothes.

It was a different time. Anyone showing up to a wedding in shorts would have probsbly not been admitted to the church or reception. It’s hard to apply that standard to an event held in barn. Nothing inherently wrong with that venue but it does set the bar quite a bit lower.

I'm old enough to remember when fine dining also meant dressing up - men wore coats and restaurants often had a few jackets in a closet that they could lend for the evening. Dressing to suit the occasion or location added to the enjoyment of an evening out. It's been 10 years since Le Bec Fin in Philadelphia closed and my adult children remember going to dinner there or La Truffe as children and how special they felt when the owner stopped by the table to welcome them. They still talk about the evening they witnessed a Sabrage. But you could see how attitudes and customs were changing well before then. Jackets and dresses disappeared and jeans took over.

The casual creep is all too evident in wedding attire too. When we attended our last black tie wedding reception DH wore his tux and I wore a long silk dress. There were only a handful of men wearing tuxes, most had dark suits and a few wore only a dress shirt. The women were all over the spectrum - from gowns to cocktail dresses to simple sundresses. While waiting for our car another guest came up to DH to request his car - he thought DH was a valet.

Now I check with the bride or her parents to determine exactly what they mean. All too often black tie is just a code for no jeans.

Hahaha Maire and your DH re being a valet!

I think the problem with Emily Post is that those of the younger generation don't read her so they don't understand the traditional definitions for the dress code, even if us old fogies do. I mean we're talking about the generation for whom addressing your own thank you note is considered fine by them...

While I can and probably will clarify, I'm assuming that one of the reasons couples indicate dress code is to avoid 150 questions about what to wear, ha ha!

Too funny marie about your DH getting the valet question. Men in tuxes have it tougher than I thought!

Sidetracked…but this dress is in my comfort zone and could possibly work for black tie optional??

I’d say no. The length and tailoring both say charity dinner, luncheon, non non-profit board meeting or pre- gala historical society steering committee meeting, 11 am church service or funeral to me. 🙂

I LOVE the dress! It would be fabulous also with a silk patterned bow. That sort of dress was very popular in the sixties and seventies with a detachable mink collar for winter—my mother had a black one and a red one IIRC.

Ha ha Kswl - you have painted the perfect picture for me about the dress! I clearly need to start another thread at some point - I'm going to need help.

@rubyclaire that is probably the best looking funeral dress I’ve seen! 😊

(Im teasing, but kinda not….I wouldn’t mind having that dress onhand for various things, but not a wedding. ) .