To add, the wall on the left has been opened into the dining room and possibly will have the fridge moved to it.

Google David Warfel lighting blog and look for his posts on kitchens. Amazing that he put it into writiing and if you follow it you can get the equivalent of thousands of dollars of pro consulting for free. I am using his instructions on my own kitchen remodel - along with the advice of a retailer. Find a good local lighting retailer - higher end, and buy their lower end products if you are on a budget - and utilize their sales people for design help. They may also have an add-on design service for a few hundred bucks....way less than any pro lighting designer. Although maybe some of them are working on the web, I don't know.

I would light this a one continuous space via recessed. seems to me the table sits under the window more than it does the chandelier, so I would consider eliminating a hanging light if that is the case. there are plenty of good reads, and layouts for this online, but to help we would need room size and current picture.

Thanks so much, Ill check him out @BC Jones

@RL Relocation LLC I can post measurements as soon as I have them (measuring is happening tomorrow). We’ve measured but I think we are off by a little so it seems best to wait for the official ones.

draw out a floor plan on paper with that.

H.ouzz search function . . really . . sux. If you click on Lighting sub-forum and sort "recent" you still have to weed through a lot of threads. Google will bring up many a blog/thread/vid that is misleading, either by people who don't know what they don't know, or have too much personal likes/dislikes biasing their advice.

There is a video I've come across from another architect who commented on a thread here once (Doug maybe?) who actually walks through a lumen test for counter lighting on the edge, so that is a good video to put those advising otherwise to rest on that point. I just perused the David Warfel blog and I like the easy presentation to non-pros, and the advice seems right-on.

A good starting point would be your plan and goals, then go from there.

@RL Relocation LLC does this help? Im including the rough idea for a layout. If Im understanding what Im reading then we would have about 8 lights. I did a rough idea here as well (the yellow circles, but more in line). The pantry and bathroom doors do not open the way it is on this drawing FYI. There is also a light above the sink we will eventually upgrade. Currently the kitchen has two separate light switches to control the right (table area) and left side (cooking area) independently of each other.

yes, and you could have hanging over the table in this case.

Ok. Thank you!

Chris, I"m going to channel Warfel here. Looks like you didn't read at all. In your plan, you are lighting your floor. It's pointless and will lead to shadows and glare. You need bright undercabinet lighting, 200 lumens per foot minimum, and that is core. On top of that, you need recessed placed closer to the upper cabinets, such that the light will both hit the counters and bounce off upper cabinet fronts when you are standing there. So there is a beam angle to pick...i'm guessing it's 130. Ask sales. I think you want one can per 3 or 4 feet of counter. Or ask a pro on this thead. Right now, your ceiling lights will light the top of your head, the floor, and create bad shadows across your counters. Will be kinda depressing. There is no need to point any lights at the floor unless you have a giant room because the ambient light from the cab fronts along with the under cab lights will be plenty. If you have budget, you can do toe kick lights also. All of the above on dimmers.

@BC Jones I did not measure anything lighting wise. This was a very rough idea (knowing that the lights would be close to the cabinet so as not to light the floor). I was trying to get a general idea of locations and did it with photo edit option on my phone. I also understand (or at least think I do based on the blogs you suggested) that additionally those lights will need to be centered on the cabs. Undermount lighting is something we will do but its the ceiling Im focused on now. Im doing my best to learn and hope others will chime in, too.

Going off what seems to be the level of your kitchen and your style, here is a layout for lighting the cabinets and counter with a 4" recessed 600-900 lumen. I do not have a handle on the GREEN doorways whether you need more lighting for those floor areas (the one between the ref/stove wall looks to be widening; don't know where the skinny one next to ref goes; don't know the Pantry one hallway). Optional are the sink can be centered over, some choose wall mount fixtures too. Here you probably don't have the proportions for wall sconces (next to window) or wall mount (above window). The hood location depends on what type if you will get too much of a hot spot, but it looks like you have a undercab hood so a can there is appropriate. The RED cabinets: widen #6 base to align with upper; DW is 24" clear; #14 upper missing opportunity for reach; #8 see if manuf offers deep cab/end panels if you want to enclose ref.

@3onthetree thank you. The large wall opening between refrig and range wall is into the dining room. The small doorway next to refrig is a hallway to the front door. The doorway by pantry goes into our living room. I appreciate the cab suggestions. We meet with the ”designer” (it’s IKEA) Friday so this was me playing around with their planner. I’ll be sure to post the one they propose! That left corner (#14) that is missing a cab I couldnt figure out how to make their cabs work - so def something that needs fixing! Refrig to be enclosed, agreed. Do you think the can above the sink is too much with the light we already have there or are you proposing we remove the existing one in favor of a can?

How do I figure out if I need an adjustable one? The Gimbal style vs the stationary ones. Should I be worried about the angle of the light being adjusted? Or try for specific beams (90, flood, etc…)? I’m seeing conflicting information. I believe I’m looking for wide beams so each light beam will overlap the other. Once we finalize our layout (likely the one above but fine tuned) I’ll post it in an update. I’m also wondering about the specific styles that would be best for someone light sensitive (deep recessed for example).

I think you are referring to using a gimbal style at the counter edge? Don't worry about it here. You will already have a hot spot on the cabinet doors, no need to make it more direct.

If you want less glare because of light sensitivity, use traditional Edison-socket recessed housings with trims which will have a deeper recess, and you can adjust the lamp placement even further up if desired (other tricks to reduce glare, but probably not necessary). Most integral LED fixtures at this level will have a shallow or non-existent recess = glare.

You're getting too into the weeds thinking about throw overlap, angles, and such for this IKEA kitchen. There is a psychology, science, and engineering to lighting merchandise at a GAP store, but that is overkill here. If your layout and fixture style is in the general vicinity of correct, you will have a successful project using and enjoying your kitchen.

Actually just got back from a meeting with my lighting guy at a lighting shop for my midrange kitchen remodel. I'm going to do 950 lumens for each 4 inch can, all on dimmers. I think you should do the same. You can always dial it back. If you are gonna be in the house when your are 50, 60+, you will need more light. I think your table corner will have a shadowy spot there. I wonder if one in that corner would work. Next, I'm gonna say this: don't buy your recessed lights from a big box store. Get good ones from a lighting retailer. You will spend a little more but get much more longevity. My guy recommends Elco or Nora for midrange. I used Elco for my bathroom.

Thank you both! I’ve been looking at DMF or Nora lights. Nice to see the Nora lights are a good option.

I’ll post an official layout when our plans are finalized for the kitchen layout including lighting (again, very likely the cabs the way it’s listed above but not done by me, ha!)
We meet with IKEA Friday and a local place shortly after that.

This is one

If you have light sensitivity to glare, and want to stick with Nora integral LED, then choosing a 4" Theia from them would give you a deeper baffle compared to the 4" FLIN fixture you show. So NLTH-41TW-MPW.

Ive always liked Nora products.

Found it, thanks!

@3onthetree I'd love to ask you a question, is there a way to DM you or could I ask it here? It would amount to hijacking the thread. Basically, adjacent to my kitchen I have a small 11 x 9 DR, we are taking down the wall between the rooms (so the DR will get new light from the kitchen), and I have a single old hanging DR fixture that will never be centered under any table I will use in that DR. I was thinking of removing it, closing it up, and adding a few recessed cans. My lighting guy thinks I can do a grouping of 5 clustered in the middle of the room, but I'm worried that I will get too many shadows. Could I do two of them (that are adjacent to an opposite wall) to be adjustable, and bounce them off the wall? There is no other wall, just a big passage to the LR and a big window. Or would I definitely have to invest in a sconce(s) of some kind? Or could it work out OK? I know it won't be perfect, but I don't want bad shadows.

@BC Jones maybe start a new thread with your final floor plan layout. I did see your Kitchen thread but @sheloveslayouts is very comprehensive and usually right on the money so I didn't have much to add since you were still formulating some big things to do. I'm not quite sure how your changes sit now.

As far as (5) cans, I have a feeling they are arranged like a 5-die (layout of 1 moved closer in from each corner and 1 over the table?). Things to consider: if your ceiling flows through to the kitchen (flush beams) or other rooms then all the ceiling layouts will be aesthetically read together; mood and drama is important in a Dining Room, so task on the table and accent on any walls; and style - whereas a contemporary modern, open floor plan might do well with all cans, whereas a more traditional (e.g. crown, chair rail, arched openings, can't tell about your furniture) might be expected to have a chandelier.

Sheloveslayouts helped with my layout 💜! Guess she’s pretty popular around here 😃 (lucky me).

And by helped me I mean “saved us from our own terrible ideas” 😂

Hi all. I am back with a question. I will add my lighting plan layout soon but I can't recall where I found information on how far to space the actual lights from each other? I am planning on 24-25" out from the wall (12" from uppers) 4" Nora listed above, centered on cabs (where I can). I thought it was 42-48" but I really can't recall and can't find the answer. I'll have some other questions once I upload my lighting layout in terms of the pantry and the large doorway into the dining room. Thanks!

These are the options for lighting:

Recessed:

https://www.prolighting.com/nlth-41tw-mpw.html

https://www.prolighting.com/hm3c.html

And UCL:

https://www.build.com/american-lighting-htl20-cob-ww-prokit-16/s1883662?uid=4454862#overview

I ended up spacing my 4" recessed lights (similar to yours) at 42" on our pantry wall and 36" on our perimeter cabinets (I think 42" between the two on either side of the range). I think it was @3onthetree who said you could do 30-48" spacing. I also placed them 22" (on center) from the walls so that the edge lands on 24". I had read they can be a couple inches from edge of counter. I placed the ones on the pantry wall 42" from the wall. Sure hope I got it right lol! I'm pretty sure I have more lights than I need, but I'd rather have too many than not enough. They are on dimmers as well. Who knew lighting could be so stressful?! Good luck with your lighting project.

@Lynn Lou thank you. Yes, who knew lighting (and everything associated with a kitchen redo!) had so much to consider?! @3onthetree can you tell me how you created the plan above? Like what app or site something like this can be done on? I want to upload it here for input. Otherwise I suppose I can mark it on our layout by hand and take a picture.

My lighting guy is putting mine at 24 inches from the wall; the lower cabs are standard depth, 24 in. Lateral spacing in between the lights ranges from 30 to sometimes less, and sometimes more (debating one placement of 48 in.). I thought that the main determinant would be if you have them centered on each cabinet or not, and whether you have enough light on a given part of the room or not....the presence of other lighting like undercab is a factor. On one wall where there is no uppers (and therefore no undercabinet lighting or sconces), he is suggesting 20 inches from the wall. I have decided to not do one over my range as originally planned, and may not center one on the fridge cabinet...I might have it be in the middle of the fridge and narrow tall pantry cab, which are next to each other. My kitchen is small. One other thing, since this is a remodel, I am asking for alternative placements in case a joist is in the way. So that can scramble things, but I think it will be OK. I am not at all symmetry-obsessed.

@Chris H I just use MSPaint for this forum stuff - quick and easy.

Residential lighting leans more loose creative than exact engineering. Too many variables that are important that effect the design beyond utilitarian footcandle/lumens on a surface. Spacing for a 4" might range from 30"ish-48"ish depending on goals (and that is a range from experience, not figured from a mathematical equation).

The distance over counter is at counter edge, give or take an inch-ish. You want to lessen the hotspot on the cabinet door as much as possible, so farther than 12" from uppers, but simultaneously you want to light the counter while you stand there, light inside the lowers, all the while you may have joists and obstructions, might want to align some non-counter lights, and whether dealing with a 6" dia BR lamp vs 2" dia spot. Thus more creative than exact - close to counter edge works.

You have the larger room to think about. Your eye will decipher a fairly even ambient light throughout the room, but, if you had lights spaced to give you 90fc on the counter, and no others across the room in larger empty space, then the room might feel "lopsided" in terms of where your eye leads. So maybe spacing a little farther apart that still gives 70fc or adding some other lights across the room highlighting a window or something. It all depends on the project variables - so again more creative than mathematical.

It's nice to center a light over a cabinet - using the ceiling plane as an element while addressing where the light throw lands is another layer of design. But, it doesn't always work out that way, and OCD about lighting certainly takes a back seat to cabinet layout and user function.

@3onthetree (or anyone else) we are moving along… working on the UCL. Couple quick questions; 1. is the ideal position 2-3” from the lip of the cabinet? I believe it is. 2. what should we do here where we have a 3” spacer? As you can see in the pictures, underneath the lip prevents us from extending that particular UCL all the way to the next cabinet. If we leave that space without an UCL will it look off?

UCL should be 1"-2" inside the front of the cabinet face frame (and held off the sides or abutting walls), but there is variation depending on what type and style of UCL you choose. The best way is to light 'em up and test by moving them around - you are trying not to create a sharp shadow line on either the counter or the backsplash. So depending on the depth of "lip," the style of fixture (hardwired, LED tape, channel profile, diffuser, 45d, etc), and the reflectivity of surfaces, you'll find a sweet spot for locating what you've chosen.

You'll probably notice the 3" filler breaking up a continuous wash of light. A tape can be run through the box "lip," a hardwired would have set dimensions to fit cabinets.

BTW when I have a blind corner like that where it has an open space that things could get lost in or fall down to the counter, I tack a couple covers on: the same thin laminated plywood as the interior inside the blind corner; and 3/4" at the bottom (and top as needed) matching the cabinet where there's filler.

@3onthetree thanks! We found that about 2” looks best. Unfortunately I think we made a mistake here (the shadow on the wall looks off, right?) and I think its what you were referring to when you said to hold off the sides? Just saw your comment but I think that’s what we did not do here. I think it can be an easy fix though. The others are looking good so far. About how far from the wall do you think shortening this would help with the shadow? This is with all lights off.

inch

@3onthetree would you mind looking at my updated post? I am having a hard time finding our cabinet layaout with measurements (we did not end up going with IKEA). Re reading the comments it looks like you answered my question on the reduced depth counter in response to soething else by saying coutertop edge, so that is likely what we will do there. Do you think this will look lopsided in general?

And is it 12” out from the cabinet door or the crown?

Bump

Chris H, I haven't read this entire thread -but - it seems like you still have questions about locating the ceiling lights - have you actually chosen the ceiling lights? If so, you should be able to go to the manufacturer's website for information on how far apart to space the lights - that is where I found the optimum distance between my Sylvania LED units.

It is a matter of distance from the light to the desired target of illumination. The manufacturer had information on the width of the cone of illumination (which gets wider as it travels from the fixture) based on that, and you want the cones to just overlap at the edge of your counter (which is what they should be centered over - not any particular distance from a wall or cabinet. If there is no counter, then where it would best illuminate that location).

The only other thing that my lighting designer advised was that the distance between the lights may have to be tweaked to avoid an open cabinet door casting a shadow on the interior of the cabinet.

Hey, I am several months past the completion of my kitchen project, and I can tell you not to sweat the ceiling lights too much if you err on the side of having too many. Mine came out great. They are located at varying distances from each other - sometimes 2.5 feet (due to joists), 3 feet, sometimes a bit over 3 feet. I never use all of mine at max brightness but I love the flexibility. I have cans centered over the counter edge and 250lm/ft undercab lighting, 2 inches from front upper cab edge, and 3 cans over my table area (in a line, was best for the room) , 2 cans over a short island, and plenty of scallop bounce off of walls and cabinets. I do not have them centered over cabinet doors (couldn't be done, joists, etc.) . Unless one is an absolute maniac, just following what I just said will make your kitchen lit better than 90-95% of remodels. If one can afford a dedicated lighting designer to get to an A+ result rather than a B+/A-, great! Was never going to be my situation, though.

Thanks, @BC Jones. I’d love to see a picture! So nice to be done, right? I think I’m going with the current layout. I put tape up and I’m thinking it’ll be fine with Theo in the “L” corner and one in front of the 15” cabinet. I’m also added two over the blue tape because we will have a small work station there that’ll see a ton of prep work.

That should say “two” not Theo

@Lynn Lou 🤣 your kitty is hilarious! Your kitchen came out great!! I appreciate the different temps you’ve shown. I lean towards warmer and 3500 looks great to me. Enjoy that gorgeous kitchen!