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melissaaipapa

(OT) Peony triumph! (so far)

Tree peonies are an established popular plant here, growing well, and nothing handsomer when in bloom. However, my history of buying and growing them is complicated. It used to be possible to purchase potted plants in the local nurseries, to grow on in pots or plant out; and they grew. These were named varieties, though they came without names; they were fairly costly for local-nursery-potted-plants, but worth it. Then things changed. Potted plants I bought didn't survive, however cosseted: they had apparently been grown in the ground, then lifted, their roots reduced to near-zero to fit them in the pots, where they were dumped with compost and put out for sale (wholesale growers, retail nurseries). They died.

Alternatives? Pay a decent, i.e. high, price for plants correctly grown and prepared for sale. I don't willingly spend that much money. Propagate my own? From what I read, tree peonies are hard to impossible to propagate from cuttings; they don't sucker, or not much, so, no plants that way. Most commercially available plants are grafted onto herbaceous peonies, I seem to remember, and I've never practiced grafting. Last possibility, try to grow them from seed, and see what happened.

I did this once, some years ago, collecting tree and herbaceous peony seeds and attempting to grow them in pots. It was a near-total failure, but I did end up with one tree peony (plus a few herbaceous ones). The parentage of this plant was obvious, as it looked very like one of the ones I collected seed from, only more pink in hue and less lavender. It's a lovely plant, eminently worth growing. Unfortunately I left it too long in the propagation beds and it has become a permanent resident, as I'm also terrified at the thought of trying to move a tree peony.

So last I year I once again collected tree peony seeds, from the lavender one as before, and its handsome offspring, and put them in plastic produce crates lined with several layers of newspaper and filled with compost. I waited. The cats used the trays as litter boxes. I swore, and covered the seedling flats with further plastic crates, ones that let sun and rain through, and weighed them down with wood to keep everything in place. Nothing happened. I had read, and it has been my experience, that peony seeds collected fresh will sprout quickly, while ones gathered later can take a long time to germinate. I thought I had collected these promptly, but swallowed my impatience and left the flats to go on. The winter passed.

Finally, yesterday, I was checking the pot ghetto, and there was a tiny little peony shoot! And another, rather battered. Another check today showed a third one. So, they're on their way, though not safe yet with enemies like snails around, and the plants so little and fragile. What a rewarding sight, though. Who knows, I may yet fill the garden with home-grown tree peonies along with all the other wonders. Gardeners are hopeful sorts.

My 'Mollis' peony, a Mediterranean peony, seeds readily, and the infant seedlings survive, in spite of terrible soil and drought, and grow. I started many years ago with two plants and am now up to about twenty, most of them tiny. This fall I want to shift a couple further out in their bed and spread the effect. They're a nice peony, but the thrill of their seeding adds considerably to their interest and charm. I'm also wondering about various forms of P. officinalis, and P. peregrina, found further south in Italy, and whether they could set seed. P. peregrina has never done so: is it because it's a single clone? There are two clones readily available in commerce: what if I bought both, and planted them together? Thoughts and schemes for the future.

P.S. If other peony fans and students read this and notice faults in my information, by all means point them out! I'd love a discussion on growing peonies, even if it's here on the old roses forum.

Comments (20)

  • 3 years ago

    Thank you, rosaprimula! It's good to hear from another grower, further along the road than I am. And I'll consider the Hardy Plant Society, though I'm guessing it's a UK organization? Since Brexit I'm a bit spooked. Will look into it, in any case.

    Good luck with your projects, and thanks again!


  • 3 years ago

    I've always liked the look of peonies, but had read they weren't happy in the south. But last spring Walmart had two or three varieties in the bulb section, and I bought a Sarah Bernhardt on impulse. I planted it in a pot. It didn't bloom, but I read that that is normal for a young, newly planted one. It looked pretty bad by the end of last year, and I thought it wouldn't come back, but yesterday I saw the first shoot coming up! I'm really hoping for a flower or two this year.

  • 3 years ago

    grrr, did a long response then my battery cut out. Will post later when not so irritated. Do please check out the HPS - they send seed worldwide. Good for you also, Bellgallica, as mediterranean paeonies have proved viable in the southern US - cambessedessii (sp?), corsica, coriecea, peregrina, algeriensis, parnassica...and also p.californica

  • 3 years ago

    What a charming post, Melissa!

    Melissa Northern Italy zone 8 thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
  • 3 years ago

    One of my more unusual volunteers is a tree peony. It came up between a couple of white pines all by its little self. I keep thinking I should move it to a more hospitable place, but I'm not sure how much of a root system I can pry out from between the white pine roots. I've moved tree peonies before, but out of garden beds.

  • 3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    rosaprimula, I understand your frustration!! Hoping to hear your further thoughts once you've recovered. I did look up the Hardy Plant Society, and am considering joining it.

    Thanks, Sheila. Do you grow peonies? I can't remember. I think they'd do well for you.

    mad_gallica, how do you move a tree peony? I'd quite like to get my seedling out of the propagation bed, but it's a mature plant, 5-7 years old. Also I have a red one that's been in place for close to twenty years now, in bad soil, its roots likely dug into sedimentary rock, that would look much better somewhere other than where it is. I did move a plant of 'Chromatella' last year, which almost, but not quite, died. Oh, and another question: what was the ancestry of your volunteer tree peony?

  • 3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    How do you move a tree peony - Carefully?

    I've moved them similarly to how I move herbaceous peonies, with the exception that I try a lot harder not to break off roots. Even being careful, it takes them a year or three to recover.

    I can't even guess the parentage of my volunteer. My neighbor has a larger collection of tree peonies than I do, and this plant isn't much closer to mine than to his.



    You can see the base of one of the white pines in the background. (it hasn't bloomed yet this year, but has buds.)

    Melissa Northern Italy zone 8 thanked mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
  • 3 years ago

    Melissa, I do not yet grow peonies here. I did gift a local friend here with an Itoh peony which is doing very well.

    I would move a path before I would move a tree peony.

    Melissa Northern Italy zone 8 thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
  • 3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Thanks, mad_gallica, that's about what I thought. I like your volunteer!

    Sheila, it's almost easier to just grow another. I hope I'm lucky with my seedlings.

    I also have a dread of moving Teas once they're a few years old. I don't know why they frighten me so much more than the once-blooming old roses, for example.

  • 3 years ago

    This thread reminds me of how much I want to get my current projects under control enough to allow me time for starting stuff from seeds, etc.

    Melissa, perhaps your fear of moving Teas has something to do with the fact that they don't like to be pruned much? because of this ,one is reluctant to cut off top growth to compensate for loss of root mass?

    Anyhow, before moving my magnolia Leonard Messel and my wisteria, I did do some research on-line and made inquiries on these Houzz forums and the Gardenorg forums, and I'm glad I did so; I had no idea that magnolia roots were so fragile, and I'm very grateful to the person that warned me of this fact in advance. But I will point out that the plants I moved-Leonard Messel and wisteria Prolific-are both easy to replace. I don't know that I'd want to move something rare and unique.

    Melissa Northern Italy zone 8 thanked User
  • 3 years ago

    Still so excited that my first and so-far-only Peony has returned from it's first brutal summer that I took a picture. Reading the posts about moving them, makes me think I should do that eventually, get it out of the pot and into the ground. Since I didn't have high hopes for it, I also put a baby rose in the same pot so, yeah, gonna have to move something this fall. What should I do?




  • 3 years ago

    They will need to be in separate pots. Maybe this Fall?


  • 3 years ago

    Bart, I think you're exactly right about why I fear shifting Teas. It seems to wrong to cut them back hard, even in order to move them. Another thing is that I have nowhere convincing to move them to. I've dug out in the big garden, preparing holes, but am little more convinced than before that Teas will be happy there. Conditions in some fashion need to change.

    Also I note your need to get your garden sufficiently under control before undertaking propagation projects. I don't grow from seed much--possibly that will change with peonies, who knows?--but propagate quite a few plants from cuttings in particular, especially the Lamiaceae: rosemary, sages, phlomis, germander; plants I need as filler and for low hedges. Also some shrubs, including roses. Do you have any space at home to do this? Because I can see how propagating at your garden would be difficult. Or are you having trouble starting a new activity? something I find hard myself.

    bellegallica, you should probably put the two plants in separate pots, but wait until fall to do so. I would gently dump out the contents of the pot rather than trying to dig out one of the residents. Herbaceous peonies are in two parts, the tubers below, and the growth buds above: the plant needs both to grow. They're not strongly connected, so you have to be gentle when handling them. You can divide a large plant, cutting it into pieces, but each piece needs at least one growth bud and a tuber. I've dug and moved and divided herbaceous peonies and they're not that hard; you just need to know the basics.

  • 3 years ago

    Thank you for the great advice, Melissa. The rose was just a band so they should be fine together until the peony dies back in the fall.

  • 3 years ago

    Hi, Melissa. Actually my problem is that I've got too much on my plate. All the mainienance-type stuff for the garden project (cutting weeds and grass and brambles and worse, watering, getting water, fertilizing, pruning, soil improvement, soil "building",etc),plus building rose/plant supports (there are still areas where climbers are flopping about), terracing walls, etc. Then there's trying to keep my hand in with my painting; painting is actually very tiring for me, requires such intense concentration. And then all the rest of it-doing wash, grocery shopping, dentist and doctor stuff, etc, etc. I don't have as much energy as I used to-or at least it doesn't seem so to me. I wish I would get up earlier,for example; I don't know whether it was chemo or covid or what, but I seem to need to sleep more than I used to . Not to mention the fact that in summer I'm obliged to maintain a somewhat vampiric lifestyle, lol- I have to wait until evening to do my watering, and that takes a long time so I get home at 11pm/midnight, then have to shower and eat ,so I get to bed only in the wee hours,and I can't seem to change my schedule back enough once summer is over. I did get a drip-watering kit, which I have yet to set up (another must-do project),but that will require some tweaking around (for example, buying a somewhat fatter hose),and that may or may not help things along somewhat.

    Another issue is my pot ghetto. I must get that greatly reduced before I can start in with propagating. And this will take a couple of years yet, at least, since water limitations oblige me to only put out a limited number of new plants each season.

  • 3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    bart, that sounds quite dreadfully busy.

    Unrelatedly, you do make me really curious to know what your garden looks like (I realize I've said this before). You don't have any friends who love to take photos? Or you just prefer not to post pictures of it here?

    Thanks for your response.


  • 3 years ago

    I think our forum is really helping me see how we are all dealing with our lives challenges and aging and keeping our gardens healthy too. It is a complex juggling act and so interesting to see how people deal with their issues in their differing climates and locales.

    I think I might end up with an overgrown jungle like the Grey Garden's ladies.

  • 3 years ago

    Actually I want to buy myself a camera,but with all the other stuff I have going on,posting pictures on a forum is a very ,very low priority. What's more, I think I read somewhere that photos posted on these forums automatically become the property of Houzz?

    Years ago, I did learn how to post photos on a forum, but then it all changed. I find this a hideously annoying thing about electronic/computer things; "they" feel compelled to "update" how things are done and whatnot,and I just don't like to spend time and energy on that sort of thing.

    Melissa Northern Italy zone 8 thanked User
  • 3 years ago

    Sheila, very true. I hope to continue on for a good while yet.

    bart, as I commented once on a forum, I want to spend my energies using technology, not learning how to use technology. Definitely a fan of the trailing edge, well debugged.

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