Dr Granola: )

I think you need to relocate. I do admire your wife for hanging in with you.

Try the Amish/Clark Missouri to help you? Or be prepared with an awful lot of first aid and the nearest E.R. .

It's a 20 X 20 DOG house, and my bet is you'll soon find yourself in it: )

There are many books that offer direction on construction techniques. They contain a lot of information and do not take on any liability.

It is math and geometry. But with catastrophic life safety consequences for getting it wrong. Remember your high school classes in both? Were you an A student?

The answer is in your question. Hire a competent structural engineer to design it for you given your specific parameters.

Unless you are in a portion of the US that doesn't require a building permit, detailed drawings created by someone with a license to stamp them is required.

I feel confident in my design. Up to the roof. I dont have the slightest idea where to begin. I cant pickup trusses. How can i design this roof in a way that i take individual boards up and attach?Any and all help is appreciated.

Here's your help for today. Hire someone that knows what they're doing.

or, like Mark said, study and read

Assuming both the 400 sf main house and the 192 ft mud room are under the same roof, that's a pretty large roof. Consider just buying a premade plan for a house that size to be sure your structure is sound.

This is disaster waiting to happen. What do you mean you can't get a truck there ? I have no idea about codes but in most places there are rules. As for the explantion it makes no sense . Go to Lee Valley get a book to show you how to buld agarage because that is what you are building IMO

"Cost to have excavation work is astronomical due to terrain. Thats fine, im going to build pillars out of block with 6x6 beams on top. No water or electric inside the building. Then build from there."

In what world does one live with no water/elec INSIDE the building? Answer: The world of tents, sheds, dog houses.....barns and even some garages have electricity?

This is confidence in abundance, or I'm clueless.

Hi, Tim,

I'm not sure if your project is subject to permit requirements, but designing it to meet code is always a good idea. You can access a lot of useful design information in the current version of the Missouri Residential Code. You can access the code on line for free.

Watch a few episodes of Building Off The Grid, as there's many who conquer the rough terrain - with Help!

You can read the building code online, which has span tables showing lumber sizes and types, spacing, and required nailing. However it is very difficult to read online, so if you have a local library with a copy to read it would help. You can also find various span tables on-line, but you have to make sure you are looking at roof loads applicable to your state.

There are some good books on house building. Taunton Press is a good source.

Step 1. Buy a Swanson speed square. It comes with a blue book...

Step 2. Read the blue book.

Stick framing a roof is not that difficult, A 20' x 20' roof is not big at all, and is not something that should require an engineer. Absolutely build it to code but a simple gable stick framed gable roof is not a big project. You can watch videos on YouTube and if you need help jump over The Garage Journal forums. You can likely find detailed drawings for small buildings from ag extension offices if you need them, but you are essentially just building a garage and there are plenty of places you can find free garage/shop drawings which will give you a great start on the planning.

Hopefully none of these comments equate to aiding and abetting.

https://discoverbooks.com/products/roof-builders-handbook-0137818165?pr_prod_strat=e5_desc&pr_rec_id=3371f554e&pr_rec_pid=8659526680881&pr_ref_pid=8566316859697&pr_seq=uniform

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/roofing-design-and-practice_stephen-j-patterson_medan-mehta/316626/all-editions/

https://www.tauntonstore.com/for-pros-by-pros-framing-roofs-071229

https://www.bnibooks.com/products/roof-framers-bible?pr_prod_strat=e5_desc&pr_rec_id=87250d47d&pr_rec_pid=4558141030445&pr_ref_pid=6624847265952&pr_seq=uniform

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/comprehensive-design-manual-for-roof-systems_american-institute-of-architects/1615661/?resultid=02bb0e70-24c8-49cb-87ea-d114a5913310#edition=2446360&idiq=5427120

https://www.bnibooks.com/products/for-pros-by-pros-framing-roofs-completely-revised-and-updated?pr_prod_strat=e5_desc&pr_rec_id=db1d86489&pr_rec_pid=6624847265952&pr_ref_pid=4558141030445&pr_seq=uniform

It is not an insurmountable task with a load bearing wall down the middle. It is going to need labor assistance topside. It cannot be done alone.

Tim, I don't know if you're set on 20x20, but 16x24 or similar is a lot easier to span, and often easier to plan.

Tim, I've built my own trusses before, and as I remember all roof trusses were stick built by hand and those homes are still standing that people live in today. I wouldn't do it today because it's a lot of work, savings are minimal if your time has value, and I can get a 20' common truss from Menard's for only $75 each with spec drawings that will meet code and satisfy the building inspector.

If you must build your own trusses don't degrade yourself assuming only a carpenter can do it because most of today's carpenters wouldn't have a clue how to do it either, and all they do now is build from drawings and leave the engineering up to others. I'm not one either but what I did was copy existing trusses using my tape measure to get the number and locations of the webs between the top and bottom cords.

First learn the components of a truss (easy easy) and find a truss already built and copy it. for nail plates use 5 or 7 layer plywood (not the 3 ply!)and a FULL 1/2" thick or better and a lots of nails. The plywood needs to cover much more surface area than those little metal nail plates (about 4 times as much) and you should use 4 or 5 penny galvanized ring shank nails, one or more for every 1 sq. in.

If you can't find a truss to copy go to Menard's web site and find the truss department to use their design software. Give your zip code, which will build to your code, and then pick "common in stock trusses". Click "continue to pre-built section" and select your desired length and pitch and click "print spec sheet". You will get a detailed drawing showing where the webs are located and all measurements. you can easily copy from these prints. You can also click "built-to-order" and pick from any of the truss families and then fill in the data for what you want and even look at a 3D visualization, but you won't get a spec sheet drawing until you get a quote and by the item. Using this option you will get a picture without measurements, using a flat ruler or a triangular scale ruler you can measure a known length to calculate a scale and using a little math you can figure out the measurements for web placements.

Back to me, my trusses were always safe because I copied trusses engineered to be safe but even beefed them up and was overkill. (just the way I am.) Even today I'll order trusses beefed up to exceed code because I want minimal deflection and not just the minimum code. My present garage is 30' x 40' and free span with trusses built by the original owner. I can, and have hung 8 cylinder truck engines from just one truss in the center, and using a laser from wall to wall I measured deflection. It was 1/2" and 3 times less then maximum deflection allowed by code for live load using Length divided by 240 (L/240). The guy built some stout trusses, and the reason I did this it make sure I wasn't overloading the truss or would of needed to spread out the load to multiple trusses.

Most people here have never built a truss, couldn't tell what a draftsmen table or slide ruler is if it was sitting in front of them, and brainwashed to be afraid and helpless so don't let them bother you. I wouldn't recommend you build you own but it's your choice I will not attempt to change. .

I would agree with the milk purchase/accountant comparison, but the OP stated "I am not a carpenter by any means and have very few tools for this kind of work." and the milk accountant may have claimed he passed the math addition class last week and is looking forward to taking the math subtraction class next week.

An over priced gallon of milk may cause havoc with a budget, but an under engineered or constructed roof could have graver circumstances.

You never find out what you don't know, until you find out what you didn't know.....is a lot more than you thought you knew.

Can be expensive, or even get ya killed or.....in this case divorced? : )

I don't think it's only a 20 x 20 building, because he says the building is "20x20 with a 12x16 mud room". I take that to mean the mud room is attached to to the 20x20 living space (blue or green area), not carved out of it (yellow area). Because if it's carved out of it, the 4 ft long strip doesn't make sense as living area.

If my assumption is correct, he has a 32 or 36 foot width structure at some point, which is a pretty big roof.

Trusses are required to be stamped by an engineer. Even if you are an engineer and can stamp your own, there is zero advantage to building trusses over a conventionally framed roof. A truss is only an advantage when there's enough labor to handle then, and it provides enough time saving to justify it. And someone else builds it.

I'm guessing that Tim chose the 20 x20 square shape because it's the most efficient in terms of the largest square footage (400 sf) for the least building materials (80 ft perimeter). But if the 192 sf mud room is in addition, he's no longer building a square. If he wanted a square to include the mud room, it would need to be 24 square feet, a pretty wide and harder-to-build roof.

I'm no carpenter, and the closest skill I have is that I am good at sewing. Imagine you've only made one garment before, pull-on pajama pants, and now you're going to sew your own wedding dress. You don't have a sewing machine and you're not going to use a purchased pattern. I do not recommend this approach for successful do-it-yourself.

Everyone is having fun with this, but I'd be much more interested in learning what the OP has to say...

Tim:

Respectfully, you don't know what you don't know. Your ideas aren't good, particularly using 6x6s as floor framing (What are you gonna hang off those things, more 2x6s? Mighty short spans if you do, which means a lot more piers.)

I can't imagine worrying about mechanicals after the framing is complete. You gonna compromise your 2x6 framing with holes for plumbing and heating, or are you gonna trench around and below them? That's gonna be tough if you've got a pier every 5' in every direction.

At least you'll be dry while you're doing all this extra work if you get your roof framed and shingled beforehand.

I suggest you visit some local construction sites and famaliarize yourself with the materials and the order in which they are assembled please. A giant box of donuts may be the best investment you make beginning this project.

Maybe the fallacy of lumberous erroroneous? (a shout out to all Road Runner fans.)

"Everyone is having fun with this, but I'd be much more interested in learning what the OP has to say..."

: ) True that, and I'd love to know what his very brave wife has to say. Has to be a match made in an ideal Heaven .

Let me get this straight:

- You have few carpentry skills.

- You have few tools.

- You want to build without slab or concrete ... foundation will be (concrete?) block and beam.

- Difficult to reach /difficult terrain.

- When you're done, you'll have no water or electric.

- You're not using pre-made trusses (the easiest option) because of delivery difficulty.

- You think the roof is the only problem.

Y'all, we're being punked.

You all are funny. It is a stick framed roof on a 20' x 20' building and you act like it is some insurmountable task.

No, it's not insurmountable -- many people build their own sheds or garages, and our forefathers were certainly successful in building small farmhouses with many of those same limitations.

But not many people today enter into major projects with these issues, and people in the past counted on their neighbors for help with "the big stuff".

How do you all manage to afford the professional help you obviously need to make it through the day? Do you call your accountant to meet you at the grocery store to make sure your milk is within your budget?

Okay, this board DOES lean that direction. Haven't we all laughed at the suggestion that a person changing out a bathroom vanity needs an architect? But this is extreme in the other direction.

Jan, there are still couples who love each other till the end and not all women are money hungry gold digging socialites with over inflated egos.

I think most women fall somewhere in between "money-hungry, gold-digging socialites" and "I'm fine living in a no-water, no-electricity handmade shed so far off the beaten path that a fire truck can't reach it."

84 Lumber has a store in Arnold. They offer house kits with a lot of the products you need. They also have 20x20 and other size garage kits. One Car Trussed Garage | 84 Lumber The trusses or a kit can be dumped at the entrance to your property. You can move things piece by piece in to the build site. Use or make a trailer and a quad or whatever. If you get info on the kits, you'll have a basic list of materials to work with.

But the foundation can't fall on you and kill you.

Again, if you read Tim's post he's building a larger structure than 20 x 20.

"Who are you people anyway?"

My name is Mark and I am a licensed architect and the majority of my practice is in rural northern Michigan and I think Tim should get local experienced advice and Amy and Cortney live next door to me.

@partim said, "Again, if you read Tim's post he's building a larger structure than 20 x 20."

I saw that and I noticed your drawing... I understand how you think that matters, but it really doesn't. The largest span is 20' the adjoining structures are less than 20'. Joining roofs together as you pictured above doesn't add a significant level of complication unless the perpendicular intersecting roof is taller than the roof it intersects.

The Blue Book has instructions on intersecting roofs... It really is not that hard to do unless you are trying to build dormers.

This is what we are talking about...

@Mark Bischak - I think you are being a bit disingenuous. Show us what a framing diagram for a 20' wide roof will look like and then explain the parts that you believe a person willing to make a reasonable effort to learn can't do. If you find a SINGLE thing that you can't do with a speed square and the Blue Book I will concede your point.

@Joseph Corlett - And how many times have you told someone to get a decent carpenter instead of an engineer?

I don't disagree that the OP is in over their head... I do disagree that framing the roof is the problem. Can you help by clarifying which part of the diagram below, a person willing to learn and wanting to get it right, will struggle with?

@bry911 so I think this is what would Tim's 2 part roof could look like.

My own roof leaked in the roof valley where 2 roofs intersect, despite the roof being done by a well-reviewed established roofing company, and not the cheapest quote. The company who fixed it said that it was not properly done, so that's why I think it does add more complication than a simple 20 x 20 roof.

An easier build would be one that had only had one roof, and a narrower, longer structure.

Probably the flashing : )

"@Joseph Corlett - And how many times have you told someone to get a decent carpenter instead of an engineer?"

Guilty as charged. I say that when people who have little knowledge pull out the "get a structural engineer" mantra when it's a complete waste of money. Engineers have their place. If a contractor or framer needs one, he's got one on speedial. A homeowner going to a structural engineer without a referral is like a carpenter going to a cardiologist without a referral from his GP.

"I don't disagree that the OP is in over their head... I do disagree that framing the roof is the problem. Can you help by clarifying which part of the diagram below, a person willing to learn and wanting to get it right, will struggle with?"

We don't disagree. Certainly a willing beginner could frame the diagram shown; it isn't rocket surgery. Posters often give themselves away by the nature of the questions they ask and by their tentative plans and I argued that was the case here without addressing the roof. My first post assumes the OP will frame his roof.

My own roof leaked in the roof valley where 2 roofs intersect, despite the roof being done by a well-reviewed established roofing company, and not the cheapest quote.

A roof leaking is not a "catastrophic life safety consequence". Certainly, Tim is going to have to get the roof flashed correctly, and if he doesn't he is going to have a leaky roof... that has nothing to do with the engineering of the roof.

Moreover, you have actually made a great point that I was just hoping someone would. Do you know why your well-reviewed established roofing company got it wrong? Because it wasn't their roof. The last well-reviewed established roofing company I got a quote from used a lot of cheap labor who got the roof done with the stuff they had available to them at the job site.

Yes, it was improperly flashed. The issue was identified by the raccoons, who peeled off a 12 foot section of the roof valley. It had not been metal-reinforced, as is necessary where I live in Toronto, the raccoon capital of the world.

@Joseph Corlett - I also don't disagree with your point. However, the problem with this kind of ridiculous overreaction is that it discounts all advice instead of only the bad advice.

If you came to this site with no knowledge but a real desire to do it yourself, would you believe any advice the people here gave you, after so many claim that you are going to die from a simple roof?

The beam thing is fairly common for cabins. I actually thought the OP was going to use them as posts, but apparently a lot of people do something similar

and Larry Haun literally wrote the book on framing a house...

"I think you are being a bit disingenuous"

I see it as exercising wisdom. I am not willing to advise anyone who claims, "I am not a carpenter by any means and have very few tools for this kind of work" through Houzz I have hard enough time getting professional carpenters to get what I want them to do with construction drawings. The interaction the OP (where ever he is) has with a local craftsman will be of far more value than any number of comments by me in a Houzz thread. Let's not give him a fish. let's give him opportunity to learn how to go fishing.

Joseph Corlett, I wasn't referring to you or any others who advised Tim not to build his own trusses. I even recommended he not do it, but also gave him some information he was seeking. Coping a truss is far less dangerous than building one from scratch.

My beef is with those instigating a mob attack on Tim's authenticity, belittling him for refusing to add to the discussion, and the arrogance of some of the comments toward Tim to the point of dragging his wife into the discussion. I have a rule, say what you want to me or any other, but when you drag family in the gloves come off.

I don't blame Tim for not making a reappearance after such a brutal display but wish him well moving forward. It looks like the mob is now regrouping to reignite the flames of ignorance and proudly holding it high over their heads.