Heather - I grew Madame Anisette 6 years ago and I loved her. You’re right, she is very upright. Her canes are a bit thinner than say, Firefighter or a cutting rose. I had gotten an own root that time as well, but from a local grower. It looked nothing like the one I received from Heirloom.
At least you got leaves :)

Jadae- I agree with you. For the price a tadpole is unacceptable. IMO it seems like mine is maybe 6 months old. I’m sorry to hear about your Summer Romance. It should have been bigger. Truly, it’s sad to hear this.

For those commenting that the own root photo from Reddit is somehow fake- Google own root vs grafted.

It’s definitely own root and not fake. Granted it’s probably a 2-3 year old BUT that doesn’t negate from the fact the crown shouldn’t be 4 inches above the roots. I’ve personally never seen an own root where the crown is that high above the roots. I’ve been growing roses for 20 years.

Example of google results: notice the difference.

Literally nobody said it was "somehow fake" though.

We are aware of the difference between grafted and own root. There are countless years of rose growing experience from the members on this forum. You asked what you should do and we've given our opinions and observations based on our own years of growing. But maybe you were just looking for validation that you should return it?

Uhh, I was being a little facetious in my comment that the photo is fake. I have been purchasing own root for 20 plus years also and as I mentioned in my post, I would never expect an own root purchased by mail order to look like your reddit picture. I think your expectations are unreasonable but that is your take on the situation. In my opinion, all these social media places, like instagram and all the others are more about promotion than quality. Makes someone in silicon valley lots of money. Who knows where that picture you posted comes from or how old that plant is. But, if that is your gauge, that is your concern. I think your rose from Heirloom looks fine and I would be ok receiving it.

Ps: never had an issue with the crown you are talking about???

I was reading at Heirloom trying to see if they specify an actual age of their own root rose plants. It says "first- year cuttings that are grown from a leaf cutting taken from a mother plant or stock plant" Ok so I'm not sure that means the rose plant is actually a year old. I know they have a one year guarantee and it come as a one gallon plant.

I will say I am happy with their plants and shipping. I do think they are a little expensive (for me anyways lol) I try and hit up their sales though lol.

I never said I expect the pictured own root. Not once. It was an example of how the crown meets the roots.However, the one I received I feel is immature for a 1 year old.
Compared to the other 1 years I’ve bought in the last month. Reference to cane size is valid.
Also, I’m just putting my feelers out to see if this is normal for Heirloom or if they’ve changed in the last 8 years. What other’s experiences are.
Jesus Christ, no wonder this forum has a reputation. :)
Good riddance once again.

I think the rose you received looks fine. I have five year old own-root roses (propagated by me and purchased from vendors) that don't look remotely like that pic you posted from Reddit. Also, there is no such thing as a "shank" on an own-root rose... that is a specific term referring to a grafted rose.

This post is a great example of why there a lot more education is needed about what roses of various propagation methods, ages, and varieties look like and about managing those expectations.

Ten+ years ago when the Clements owned Heirloom Roses, the plants were band sized. The current owner grows them on quite a bit longer into 1-gallon pots.

I have gotten own root roses like the one in that reddit picture - from David Austin as bare roots but they are large and not one gallon size like the Heirloom roses. I have almost 50 roses from Heirloom and have never seem one like in that picture from them, nor would I expect it in a one gallon size plant.

I’d keep that plant , it is healthy and Mme Anisette is super vigorous. In a few months it’d be too large for its gallon. I would say that that is on the small side for what the current Heirloom sends out, but I’ve received even smaller from them before. Of course, you should do whatever makes you feel satisfied with your purchase.

I haven't been too happy with very many of my heirloom purchases this year. I've ordered a total of 5 of them. 2 of the 3 olivia rose austins I ordered were tiny.

The Gertrude jekyll I received a few weeks ago was downright pathetic. It was damaged in shipment and the canes were just well less than pencil thin.

The only acceptable one I received was mill on the floss great size and cane thickness

They did send me a replacement carding mill for the Gertrude jekyll. It's a nice size but has the same weird crown location as the pictured rose in this thread.

It seems there is some confusion about how own root roses grow, since they are not grafted there is no ’shank’ that needs to be buried. Nor is there a single ’crown’ that the rose grows from. Its an own root rose so more limbs will come from the roots in the ground and that will result in branching from the ground over time. Also, rose plants come in all shapes, some roses are naturally bushier than others.

I must say compared to that one order that Garden Roses LLC sent out, these Heirloom Roses all look like giant sequoias! Lol!

The plant looks great to me. If it were mine, I’d plant it deeper when I put it in the ground, to the depth of the first branch. I’ve done it often and it works well. I know at least one of the nurseries I buy from recommends planting to the depth of the first branch.

An own root rose doesn't have a shank. That term specifically refers to a grafted rose.

I didn't intend to get own-root roses when I placed my order with Managerie, but unfortunately, some roses were only available in that form. I was expecting roses looking like 'Heirloom' roses, so you can imagine my surprise when I received roses that looked exactly like own-root roses in the picture :

@elenazone6, I also just wanted to give a shout-out to Menagerie. I ordered a Bolero own-root from them and the quality and packaging/shipping were excellent. The bare root I received was robust, with awesome roots, though Bolero is of course a smaller variety, so it wasn't as big as what you've pictured.

I feel like Felicia of Menagerie really knows what she's doing and runs her business very smoothly. I think there were some kinks with collection launches in the past (maybe it was too much website volume -- I can't remember), but she's addressed that. She's also curated a very nice assortment of varieties.

They are running some great deals on bare roots right now before they stop selling for the season.

i got a madame anisette from heirloom about that size last year and was quite happy with the vigor if not the price!

Burling has a good shipping deal . She uses flat rate priority boxes. To fit the most plants in the box she chops the plants to the point they're often quite small. They almost always have great roots and do well. I think the top growth is not as important as the roots. If you want more top growth she will send them in bigger boxes .

Heirloom does charge a good bit so that does raise expectations for the top growth.

This was my first time ordering from Menagerie, and I ordered a total of 26 roses. Overall, I was very impressed. Felicia seems very dedicated to her business. However, in my opinion, she might want to consider starting her sales in line with others, perhaps a little earlier than January. I am ended up canceling my order with Regan's and switched to her.

Good luck HU-511558083. When I posted a similar pic last year of Quicksilver from Heirloom that had one measly little cane, there was little support or understanding from many on this forum. Most said that it would be fine, it would grow, it looked healthy, they have received smaller ones (not relevant) etc. I didn't disagree with those things, but my complaint was being sent such a tiny specimen that cost $55. I was expecting much more bulk for that price (and a bigger plant being shipped means a bigger plant in the garden).

Heirloom did offer to replace it (I declined) so that was good. But I was so shocked how tiny it was! Do whatever you feel best doing, requesting a replacement or not.

@erasmus_gw you make a strong point - it's the roots that are important. Also, it seems like the complaints about own-root plant size is proportionate to the price paid. Paying more money for a plant doesn't make it larger.

I disagree completely with the point that paying more money for a plant doesn't make it larger. I mean, yeah, it's true that there is no rule, but in general, we do pay more for larger goods. A giant box of cereal costs more than a small box. A tree in a 100-gallon wooden basket costs more than one in a 4" pot. While roots are very important, the top growth is as well. It's the top growth that helps grow those roots larger, which in turn creates a larger plant. So having more bulk means more sun exposure which means stronger roots and so forth.

Mx Chino did you order those Austin roses from Heirloom because you wanted own root specimens? I ask because they are a lot cheaper ordered directly from the David Austin website as bare roots. Even the potted ones now are still cheaper than the Austins from Heirloom. You pay $35 for bareroot (and they are HUGE) and $50 for own-root/potted plants. Just passing this info on in case you weren't aware.

It makes sense to me that if you pay more you expect a bigger plant. But I think if there's a good root system the top growth is apt to grow fast. Just for myself, I'd rather have big roots and small top than big top and small roots. It DOES happen sometimes that a plant can have surprisingly small roots with big top growth.

I bought bare root roses grafted on multiflora from HOrtico a few years ago and was a bit disappointed with the size. But they were good quality plants and once the roots took hold the plants exploded into growth and I couldn't tell the difference between those bare roots and bigger bare roots I'd received elsewhere. So even size might not be something to worry about too much...if the plant is healthy.

By the way this year the bare roots from Hortico were big...great looking plants.

@User with grafted roses, you should expect a certain size, and if bareroot, it should be a graded size. This is where you can and should expect consistency.

But for own root roses? Absolutely not. Plants propagated on their own roots immediately reflect their individual habits. Some roses are not all that vigorous on their own roots and may remain small for some time. Often these are the more desirable or expensive plants, because they are more difficult to propagate. They really cannot be compared to cereal.

@ElfRosa I disagree. The point is, we all expect plants to be a certain size for a certain price. I'm not saying what Heirloom sent was wrong--I'm saying it didn't meet our expectations. That is a fair assessment from each person who spends the money on a product. Any product, be it cereal or an own-root rose.

I don't set those kind of expectations when buying plants. You're buying the genetics, nothing more.

@User so per your line of thinking, I should expect to pay more for a rambler than something like a moss or damask? After all, a rambler is a much larger "box of cereal".

Genetics+ health is what I want to buy but I like big plants as much as anyone. Can compromise on size due to various factors like whether something is hard to find. I buy small clematis plants from Donahue's because they're cheaper. I do the work growing them to larger size.

No. I’m referring only to the size of the plant being received. We are not buying potential, we are buying a plant at a fixed point in time. I expect a certain size plant for $55 from Heirloom. I don’t think this is unreasonable. The plant size at shipping should be a standard.

Unrealistic expectations.

Heirloom clearly states these are one gallon plants, there is only so much growth you are going to get in one gallon. Personally I only use Heirloom for roses I can’t get bigger/cheaper elsewhere or that I don’t want to wait for since they do ship all year. For larger own roots you do need to go with bareroots or sources that sell larger plants but usually they have limited ordering and shipping windows.

@User I think with own roots that can get tricky though because some varieties are much slower to establish and grow, and could take the grower a much much longer time to get to the same size as a very vigorous variety. So uniform size for uniform price might cost the grower a lot in time and space and resources to keep slow varieties going in their grow space longer. In an effort to average that out, quicker varieties might become more expensive to compensate. I'm sure glad it's not me determining such things! Because I don't think it's as cut and dry as it seems to have been suggested in above comments.

I remember your quicksilver thread, I think the plant in question on this thread is quite a bit bigger. I still stand by my opinion that OP should give it a chance. It also costs in fossil fuels to ship and return and reship and who knows if they can resell or even keep a plant that's been exposed to a garden out of state... Because of those things, I personally believe we as consumers should not be returning things we weren't even willing to give a proper chance. Unless the product is not as advertised or really subpar of course, but I don't think the plant on this thread fits either of those.

Magpie, I don’t really disagree with you. This is about managing expectations, yes? I personally feel that Heirloom is responsible to set the expectation of what we receive. After buying 20 of their one gallon own root roses, I had an expectation of size. When I got Quicksilver, I was disappointed because it looked nothing like the others I bought and felt cheated. Was it perfectly healthy? Yes. Did it grow on well? Yes. But it wasn’t what I expected based on my prior experiences. Did I learn about the variance? Yes. In time. But it goes back to managing expectations. And product uniformity is a thing that is actually studied. The concepts apply to everything we buy (that is why hundreds of apples look the same in the store—because they know we don’t like inconsistency).

I think it is totally possible for Heirloom to ship similar sized plants out for consistency OR teach the consumer what they can expect as far as size goes better than they do.

My Quicksilver rose is huge now, thankfully, and I’m glad I didn’t return it nor take their offer of a refund. I’ve since learned how this works. But I still feel that a more consistent sized product is a reachable goal, but it is my personal feeling alone—not what I think everyone here needs to agree with.

To the OP, I can empathize with their disappointment. Be it a good plant or not, they were simply disappointed. I have had the same experience and wanted to empathize with them.

Customer expectations are so wild I don’t hold any company responsible for customer expectations. I’ve heard so many customers have so many wild expectations in every industry I’ve worked in. In short customers are often wrong.

Customers are responsible for their own expectations especially when making a properly informed decision. Nothing here suggests the shopper was ill informed or persuaded using shady marketing tactics, which I will say I’ve seen some other rose sellers use.

If the OP believes that plant is only a year old, they're mistaken. An own root rose grown from a cutting takes two years to achieve that size. Because it is an own root plant, there is no "crown" or "shank", and so theres no need to worry about the position of the branch above the soil line. New shoots will come from the soil level, guaranteed. There's a whole lot of fussing over nothing going on here. Yeah, OP may be disappointed with what they got, but it will be an excellent bush in a year's time, mark my words.

I agree, that's a pretty big plant for one year...I'd say more time , hence effort, went into growing that plant.

But I am not putting down op as she is comparing it to other plants received from

Heirloom. The happy thing is that it is apt to do well for her.

I'm going to join the chorus of folks saying that this plant looks healthy, and like a nice own-root plant. I've never worried about the size of a rose when I acquire it -- only the size it will eventually achieve in my garden. When a rose is happy, it can grow quite quickly. :)

I have planted own root roses way smaller from Heirloom but they still turn into nice bushes... :-)

That thing you call "the long Shank" I never received one like that though...Thats wierd to me... So not sure about that...

You have to live with your decision so follow your heart and do whats best for you!

I would never complain about a plant that healthy looking. I don't think Heirloom can be responsible for people's lack of experience. Educating gardeners takes years of experience and time the sellers don't have. This is why we are on here to find out what is what.

librarian, Wow! Your Madame Anisette is something to aspire to! She is definately a climber. I can see mine is gonna need a huge trellis.

Mine just sat there the first year but this year she finally bloomed and is about 5 ft tall and 6ft wide now. She is still in a 3 gallon pot too!! I am not sure where I am putting her permanantly yet but from the looks of those photos, I better figure it out quick lol.

I am so happy with her. Smells like anise and vanilla and maybe a little lemony -like a fancy bakery cookie. She is right by the hay trailer and I have to stop and smell her twice a day when I get hay. I like her so much I named one of our doelings born this year after her.

Sultry, that's an impressive size for a 3 gallon pot! Yours is going to be a stunner in her permanent spot! I love that you named a doeling after her 😍

librarian_gardner_8b_pnw

WOW! Gorgeous roses! Do all your roses look this good?

HU-511558083

I have not purchased from Heirloom in 4 years but last time I did it was about the same size as yours. At first I was disappointed too, but now that I have purchased roses from different companies I realized their roses are not that bad. I'm sorry some people on here can't answer your question without an attitude.

What do people say about Houzz forums? I have had a lot of nice gardeners answer my questions.

Wow that Madame Anisette is breathtaking!

Aw, thanks folks. MA is a showstopper, for sure. I've heard though, that she likes a lot of water. We get quite a bit of rain November -May, so maybe that's why she's happy in my garden.

I have some other impressive bloomers, too, Bolero is another great white that's fragrant, healthy and full of blooms all summer. Bolero is also a small bush and easily stays compact!

I used to buy from Heirloom years and years ago (1990's). Back in those days they had one of the best collections of old roses of any nursery with the exception of Vintage Gardens. Then they turned to a different business plan. John Clements started breeding his own roses and the nursery featured them. Fewer and fewer of the old roses were offered. Eventually the Clements sold the business. I think I heard that John Clements had passed away, though I may be mistaken about that. I don't know much about the new owners. I did notice that the roses are expensive. Not uniquely so, though. I can think of other vendors in their price range.

Having said all this, I just ordered 3 Buck roses from them. All because I could not find another vendor that had them in stock. If I'd waited, I could have found 2 of them elsewhere this spring. But I really want to get them in the ground this fall. Starting a new garden just about from scratch, I am feeling impatient. There are no instant result in gardening, but sometimes you can take a small step forward.