Wow. Times have changed.

Admittedly, I was an idiot but I actually went to a professor and complained that he gave me an A on a written exam because I knew I hadn't prepared and was "dialing it in". It was graded on a curve but I told him I wanted him to grade me on my ability not the class performance. (He told me I was an idiot also lol).

Amazing, isnt it. My dtr-in-law teaches at a major state university and regales us with similar stories. Many of her stories come from the parents of her students!

How frustrating. We have two sayings around our house that seem to apply. I'd love to say that they have solved all our frustrations with our young adult kids but that would be a lie.

"Boring tasks (insert boring task here - an oil change, laundry, etc.) are a gift to your future self" and the other is "be a participant in your own life".

This is almost unbelievable. I say ’almost’ because we also have a DIL who teaches in the nursing dept of a major state university. Most are pretty responsible, and then there are those like the ones asking these questions. And I read something about this generation and job interviews recently where parents were also going to the interviews with their kids now. WTH?!

“We have become a society where everyone is either entitled or victimized. It can't possibly be their own failure. ”

I disagree. Every young person today does not feel entitled or victimized. Think of all the upper level students in the country (world?) who did not ask questions like those in the OP.

Today’s means of combining and sharing often makes the percentage of clueless people seem larger than I hope it really is.

I do laugh at The Leighton Show and the texts from students that he shares.

https://youtube.com/shorts/09FuXelwV-c?si=MYadpQRxqgkdLqdF

As I age, I’m more and more thankful that I won’t live forever. At some point, societal norms will have changed so far beyond my comfort zone that I won’t want to be a part of said society. Maybe the next generation will be a rebound generation that is super independent and problem-solving in opposition to their whiny, self-involved parents.

OH pal! Those comments sound so familiar from my sister who is a dental hygienist with a masters and taught (note past tense) in the dental hygiene school at our local university and it was comments like that which made her quit.. It was also the sense of entitlement and the lack of a serious work ethic from the students that frustrated her.

She moved to teaching clinical in the Dental School and they seem to be a little more mature.

I'm still close friends with many of my college buddies and when we get together we talk about how we had very little supervision and guidance while we were in school. The negative side of that is if people were struggling, no one from the school stepped in until the situation was nearly out of control.

There's always a happy medium but it can be hard to manage.

I can believe that you are getting those questions, but I also agree that is not all young people. Like bad news, this kind of behavior is what generally gets highlighted. There are lots of bright responsible young people doing the right thing and doing amazing things.

That said, I can see how the undergrad public education system DS was part of contributed to that kind of student. Grade inflation, extra credit, wanting everyone to pass, etc. can definitely lead to some lazy students in that regard. They've been let off the hook for years. Hopefully most will re-learn to rise to the occasion when they are held accountable.

My grandson just finished his sophomore year at a state college a couple of hours away. His mother tells us stories that she picks up from the parents' online page. Such as, where are the laundry machines? Basic living questions the little snowflakes can't/won't ask for themselves.

I think most of the students are pretty reasonable and responsible and I think on some levels the overall quality of students has improved, but in other areas they have declined, and some of the personality traits have become more difficult. It's complex.

When I first started the program was run by two drill sergeants who terrorized everybody and got away with it, and that was not good. At that time though, it was an annual occurrence, usually in the first year class, that a physical altercation between two students would have to be broken up: some of the students were pretty rough. Usually that either got disciplined out of them or they dropped out. But there was no "familiarity" with faculty at all, there was a formality of sorts.

As things become more competitive, a certain quality in the student population has gone up.

On the other hand, you used to be able to graduate from high school with good grades and no particular recognition given unless you were at the very very top of the class. I was not. I graduated with good grades in HS and with honors from undergrad and so what? Good grades were an expectation. ( I remember being called to the guidance counselor's office because I (among a few others) had scored extremely high on a standardized test. " Apparently you scored in the 99%percentile on ___. They sent this certificate. I don't really know what the significance of it is. Here." )

Now if you are at all a good student you get awards and recognition for everything. You get awards for participating, you get awards for showing up. These students have been told how perfect they are for the last 12 years, and now all of the sudden they are in an environment where everything doesn't come as naturally as breathing, and everything doesn't come with a reward and they resent it. We (the educational system) created this monster, they didn't.

I actually think this is even a bit more prevalent in the more prestigious place I work. (I do not teach there). To some of the students the attitude is "We are paying a lot. I am the customer, you are the employee. You will make sure I get my degree." I had someone who who does teach there say to me "You know, since that student committed suicide (a few years ago), no one has failed anything since. No one has to repeat anything. No one washes out of the program. Everyone graduates. They will bend over backwards to get someone through. Over half the class graduates with honors. Pretty soon everyone will graduate with honors"

I don't think it was good when my dad went there and they told them to look around, and remember this day because in a year 1/3 of the class would be gone. But I think maybe we've gone too far in the other direction.

I think overall it's a good thing that teachers are more approachable, and are considered more approachable, than when I was in school. On the other hand, I think with more and more students there is a level of familiarity that is not good, that they can say anything to you, do anything in front of you, and it's all supposed to be okay. And with some students the roles have been reversed. They are allowed to say anything they want to you but if you treat them the same way they treat you, they go to administration. This is a small minority, but increasing.

In my particular curriculum, as in my profession, it's complicated, because there are two different sorts of attributes and not everyone has both. You can be academically very smart, and you can have excellent technical skills, and that does not describe a huge percentage of the field. There are people who are smart, but their clinical skills are not that great, and I think it is particularly frustrating for someone who knows what they are supposed to be doing, perhaps in great detail, and with all the theory behind it, but they do not perform clinically at a high level. Then there are the people who have excellent clinical skills with not much of an idea of the rationale for doing it, and a lot of times they don't mind much as long as they perform well enough on the exams to get through. Many people are in the middle. But the group who is a high performer in one category and not the other, it's hard to say who will be the better overall clinician.

After more than 30 years working with the public in a number of different areas, I can honestly say I agree with one of my dad's fave sayings: 'people are stupid' 😄

And it does seem true that young kids these days seem to be more helpless every year.

OTOH, I do agree with maddielee that it's certainly not everybody, but we tend to focus on the negative stuff - which is in our nature.

I also think a big factor is the systemic dismantling and degradation of public education in the USA by those in charge of funding, etc.

Well, I do know someone who works in college admissions who said more parents want to be in on the interview. There was one set of parents who wanted to be interviewed instead of their offspring. Now sometimes parents want to be there when they interview for Grad school.

I know someone who worked in Human Resources who got a call from parents because their son was going to have his first performance review at work. They wanted to know exactly what sort of questions would be asked, and what sorts of things they were going to say.

Then they showed up the day of the performance review and wanted to sit in on it. They felt it was important because if he was told anything negative at his performance review it could "break his spirit", and it could have a negative impact on improving his performance and negatively affect his entire career.

Granted, this is a rarity, but situations like this have gone from unheard of/nonexistent to actually happening, so it's quite an increase.

While I would never do it or think of doing it, I can understand why some parents want to sit in on interviews for college admissions. Marks don't tell the whole story. Mark inflation started back in high school. When I was in high school a B average got you into business school, now you need an A+++ average and you didn't need entrance essays which now seem to be written by pros. Maybe I'm wrong but kids aren't any smarter now but the demands are a lot higher.

Well grading has gotten much easier. "Average " used to mean C. Now the average grade is a B +

I saw a meme recently something to the effect that instead of smoothing out the road for their children, parents need to teach their children to climb mountains as the parents won't always be around to do that for them.

Definitely one of my parenting mistakes. I thought that since I was a SAHM, my job was to make everyone's life run smoothly. Nobody told me it's better to be a benevolent dictator than an executive assistant.

Thankfully I didn't mess up my kids too badly.

It started in middle school here for my son. Students are still able to retake all tests-except quizzes. Ridiculous! I NEVER got to retake a test during my school years whether in middle school, high school or college.

I’m impressed that your head has not exploded. An envi-sci prof friend was just telling similar stories about her PhD students, who are NOT paying customers declining to be contacted after 5pm while they are all working at a remote lab location.

I am hopefully 4 years from retirement is all I got to say!

OTOH, most of the students are fine. It is like everything else that 10% will cause 90% of the headaches. The top students are really good and competitive with anyone. Next Monday I'm zooming into a former undergraduate student's PhD defense seminar!

Jennifer - I am saving this! "We have become a society where everyone is either entitled or victimized. It can't possibly be their own failure. You owe them a good grade, you owe them hand holding, you are unfair, you are unreasonable . "

I am within spitting distance of retirement, after spending almost 30 years doing employee relations and performance and leave management for a large employer. And Jennifer's astute observation above will be the prologue to my book of all the crazy stuff I've seen.

Yes, most people are - still - fundamentally decent people. However there are a growing number of people who are so disconnected from what most of us would accept as reality - and attempts to reconnect them to reality are met with vociferous pushback.

I video interviewed a brand new graduate for a temp job a few weeks ago. I kept hearing whispering in the background. I asked her if someone was talking to her, and she said it was her MOTHER. Yes, that is correct. Her MOTHER was sitting just off screen and told her what to say, what not to forget to say, etc.

So Palimpsest - your students are graduating and going out into the "real world" - and all the troubling behavior you shared above continues on, unabated!

May lord have mercy on us all.

Well, the parent(s) who showed up for their son's performance evaluation at his job were told:

"Actually the most negative thing that could end up in his evaluation could very well be his allowing your presence in this meeting. Do you still want to come in?"

I am not saying this is better, but I know people who showed up at college when I was a freshman completely by themselves. Their parents saw them off at home, or literally dropped them off.

I am always reluctant to chime in on 'what is it with this generation?' comments because I've taught and continue to tutor young adults who astound me with their effort, perseverence, and intellect. They are miles ahead of where my friends and I were at their ages. But it is hard to ignore what others here have said -there is a loud and annoying 10% behaving this way, and it's impossible to argue with the examples Palimpset cites, or with the absolute horror of parents inserting themselves anywhere in the interview process, including college admissions. I cannot IMAGINE my adult kids' reactions if I'd ever even come close to suggesting such a thing. Doing for someone what they can and ought to do for themselves simply convinces them they aren't capable. And as a former elementary teacher, I can see the link between the parents who did their children's homework and projects, the parents who complained about every, single grade, the parents who wanted special treatment constantly -and the entitled, clueless comments in Palimpset's list. I have a teacher friend, one year from retiring, a very solid, compassionate, capable teacher. Last year, one mom of a very troubled, disruptive student in her class became so threatening that this teacher is in fear of her life, and has taken measures to protect herself. All the admin did was coddle the mother throughout the year. Too many are quitting the profession for very valid reasons.

Bestyears, I agree with everything you just said.

I haven't thought this through, I'm just thinking out loud....are the extremes getting more extreme? I agree with you that some of the young people I interact with are miles ahead in terms of accomplishments, goals, perseverance, etc. .

Yet I know, at least in my line of work, there are increasing numbers of people exhibiting what Jennifer described - shocking levels of entitlement and victim-hood, and believe that the world owes them whatever it is that they want. The things I have seen/heard/been told over the last 5 years or so blow my mind, and it was unthinkable that someone would say or do such things when I first started 25-30 years ago.

I think there have been cases like this for a long time. I think some of it is just becoming a little more pervasive.

Right at the very beginning of when I was teaching, we had students who rotated in from their college program for clinical experience in this other clinic, and they had faculty from their program supervising them. One day a student jumps up from her chair and says "You know what? F-- you, and F--- this stupid program!" and slams her chair out of the way and starts sobbing and runs out.

Another student ran over and said "What did you say to her?" in an accusing sort of way to the faculty.

(This was not in a classroom, this was in a public clinic with about 50 various people in the immediate vicinity, a hundred maybe in the space, and she may have still been observing with an actual patient when this happened.)

Did the student get in trouble? Not really. And the faculty got asked the question by administration: "What did you do to upset this student so much that she said that to you? Like it had to be primarily the faculty's fault. And that was probably 25 years ago, so this is not completely new.

Part of the increase I think, is that Gen Z/Millennials were raised watching the Keeping up with the Kardashians, where they got a lot of rewards for doing nothing, and got a lot of attention for manufacturing drama, and other sorts of shows like Real World MTV, and the Bachelor/Bachelorette type shows and all those manufactured reality shows where people constantly create drama and tension and act like they are entitled to everything, and stab each other in the back and have no loyalty to anybody but themselves, and it pays off. And they think it's normal behavior. My sister said 25 years ago, "Oh E and her friends are all bickering with each other all the time and talking about each other behind their backs and forming and breaking all these little alliances all the time for no reason because they see it on TV and they think that that's how you're supposed to act. It's so stupid. And I think she thinks it's stupid, but she thinks that's how life is." E's 40 now(and not like that anymore) .

And now with the younger ones they have also been raised on Facebook and Instagram and X and TikTok and they see all this stuff that is pathologic behavior that has been normalized.

I have a FB friend (I was kind of afraid to turn down her friend request). She has no interest at all in what I am doing (I never post anything anyway) but lots of people want everyone to know what they are doing. I generally sleep almost everyone for 30 days at a time. Anyway, she posts some meme or other every day about leaving bad friendships behind, cutting toxicity out of her life, she doesn't care if you are a relative, if you don't treat her right, she's gone, if you dare criticize her kids, you had better watch out. All those sorts of things. Almost daily. All very obscure to probably the majority of her FB friends but clearly posted for various somebody's benefits.

A bunch of coddled, "all about me" babies. So much for the American work ethic that made this country what it used to be.

Oh, I don't know. I think Americans still tend to work harder than their contemporaries in a lot of countries do, if they want to get anywhere.

There's still a mentality that if you only work when you are at work, only work for your 40 hour work week, that you don't care very much about your job. In many environments it is expected you will take work home.

My niece's husband was hired by a company based in Germany but he can live in the US. He has an awkward schedule, because he may have a few online meetings at 6 am here or late at night. But otherwise he has no minimum requirements of how many hours he puts in in a day if he gets his tasks done. He can frequently work intensely for a few hours and get it done. He started with 10 weeks paid vacation in the year. After that, it increases, at some point as long as you get done whatever your tasks are by whatever deadlines need to be met you have no particular work guidelines at all. His cousin who lives and works in Germany thought he should have negotiated to start with at least 12 weeks of paid vacation. By contrast, I know people in America who don't really get any.

I think Covid has changed this somewhat. I know someone who was chastised by their supervisor for not responding to an email for almost three days. They said "I responded to it in 15 minutes. You sent it on Friday at 4:55. I responded at 9:10 on Monday morning. That's 15 minutes of my work time."

They have a point.

When DH was a professor at a reasonably prestigious university, he asked me to read a handwritten essay that one of his corporation finance students had handed in. I told DH that while the first paragraph was weak, the rest was fabulous, pure gold. That's when DH told me that the paper was the seminal paper in corporation finance. Not only that, but it was assigned required reading in his course! However, DH was told he could not flunk the student , either for plagiarism or stupidity, because the student might sue.

At both places I work they have to sign a document that they did not plagiarize for certain assignments.

I work in higher education with GenZ from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, and many are first generation. They are diligent, hardworking and respectful. They are delightful, I enjoy engaging with them, and I learn a lot from them.

I think there are plenty of capable, intelligent and hardworking young adults coming up in this world. They're more aware of a lot of societal and cultural b-s- and are calling it out, though.

As an added note, my young DS just accepted an entry-level job offer in his field, and I'm amazed at the salary and benefits (4 weeks vaca, stock options, a 5%+401k match, and so on). And he has dental insurance... dental insurance! Most of my peers in the private sector didn't have dental insurance when I was a young professional. He also can work remotely M and F, although he's an extrovert and wants to commute to the office 5 days. (We will see how long that lasts.) His generation reads the buzz about CEO salaries and corporate profits and billionaires. I think it's fair to expect dental insurance. <shrug>

This discussion made me think of this sketch from Portlandia 😄

LOL, I have not seen that one!

As it has been forever there are all sort of people. Gen Z is no different. Sadly much can be attributed to their parenting. When I was a SAHM I thought it was my commission to be damn sure my offspring would be capable excelling adults. And well THEY ARE!! My guess is the socioeconomically deprived students are wonderful because they were raised to be adults not victims or entitled to much. I friend just retired. Head of housing for a University. When he began is career he talked to a lot of students in his office. The last few years it's been parents. Where I work if you write your name on the paper you get a 2 which equates to a C . If you get half wrong you get a 3 which equates to a B. All that means nothing but I do wonder how employers will know new hires know anything! And as an aside, my youngest had both smarts and clinical skills but she didn't have to get practiced on after her clinical supervisor couldn't even find her veins!

I also work with a lot of students who are minority and who are recent immigrants or first generation--first generation to the extent that their parents do not speak much English and that they did not speak English at home and learned it primarily when they entered school.

My experience has been that most of these students have to be smarter or at least work harder than their American counterparts for a number of reasons because they have had to work harder and be smarter to pull them out of the circumstances that some of them are in. Some of them have been very poorly educated in their own school systems. One of the HS here has a 5 year graduation rate of about 40%. Imagine trying to learn in that environment. Also, some of the recent immigrants have been relatively well-educated in their own countries in some field, but don't have degrees that would be accepted in the United States. I think the prevailing attitude among some groups that minorities and foreigners get a lot of stuff handed to them because of their backgrounds has not been the case in my experience at all.

My daughter teaches 3rd grade. The messages from the parents often blow our mind. One recent example - how is my child supposed to do this homework without a ruler?

Um, dude, get your kid a ruler!

So unfortunately, it's not surprising that some young adults are equally clueless.

That's not acceptible behavior/quesitons and your rebutal/answer could get you in legal trouble. This is why people say "I don't know"...when they DO know....it's a scapgoat answer. :0)

I watch ChampagneCruz all the time. He's so funny with different generations!

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRKW4rRE/

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRKW4WoF/

Bumble, the Birthday one is the most telling to me! So funny! I'll have to give a follow for him. I'm pretty new to Tik Tok.

As a follow up. I told my daughter about this thread. She said when she entered her program it did not occur to her they would be practicing on each other... She also said senior year she put back in the rotation as it was assumed they all should be capable of drawing blood in any situation by them. It was a standing joke if her name was pulled that student would fail that day. She had an operation a few years ago. The OR nurse had to call in a Peds nurse to get her IV in.