“I cannot determine if it is systemic or not.”

Pre-Harvest Interval for lettuce is 1 day - this suggests it is not systemic. Still, I would not knowingly eat lettuce that had been sprayed with it even 5 days pre-harvest.

Same here, rifis. I just discovered that Cyonara 9.7 is not systemic...my quest for an alternative to the Bayer Imidacloprid spray continues.

Moses

Moses, are we talking about rose midges, correct?

Try Chlorantraniliprole its an insecticide, specifically targeting insect pests through muscle paralysis, primarily affecting larvae.

I see what elena wrote, Moses.

Did not you previously write that you were going to try it?

Rifis, I thought that I remembered both Elena and I mentioning that product to Moses some months ago. I read about it on the NGA rose forum from a very experienced rose grower who battles rose midge in the Hudson Valley, NY. Elena is also a member of that forum.

Jordan,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Do you know if Cyonara is rain/watering repellant once applied and dry? If so, for how long?

Moses

Elina,

Yes, they are rose midge fly larva that I am talking about controlling.

Moses

Rifis,

I need a refresher course on the subject! 😁

Moses

Susan,

Hudson River Valley rose midge flies are sissy midge. Just sneeze on them and they die. Pittsburgh rose midge fly have steel in their guts and need a powerful concoction to do any good. 🙄

Moses

Moses, here are a presentation of Dr. David Shetlar, OSU, (BugDoc) midges part:

1. Oregon State Studies by Robin Rosetta) • Compared imidacloprid G applied late February to cyfluthrin sprays at 2-week intervals (12 apps).
2. Notes: While roses are popular plants, it is surprising that there are very few recent applied research projects evaluating modern insecticides for efficacy to control rose midge. One set of studies was performed by Dr. Robin Rosetta, an entomologist at Oregon State. In one study, she tried two approaches – a preventive approach using the systemic neonicotinoid insecticide, imidacloprid (=Merit, Bayer Advanced Tree and Shrub Systemic Insecticide, Bonide Systemic Insecticide and Fertilome Systemic Insecticide), and biweekly applications of a common pyrethroid, cyfluthrin.
3. Notes: As you can see in the chart produced from Dr. Rosetta’s study, both the early application of the imidacloprid granules and the every-two-week applications of cyfluthrin were effective at keeping the rose midge in check! Other studies have also used imidacloprid and many have failed when the treatment is applied after the roses have fully emerged and rose midge damage is appearing! It appears that getting the imidacloprid into the plants early to knock out the first generation of rose midges is the key to success with this insecticide.
4. Rose Midge (British Columbia, Contract Research Study by Janice Elmhirst) • Compared avermectin (Avid), permethrin (Doktor Doom) foliar spray and soil drench, lambda-cyhalothrin (Matador), and two biological controls – Steinernema feltae (a nematode) and Hypoaspis (a predatory mite). • Avid, Doktor Doom (foliar) & Matador applied at 14-day intervals • Doktor Doom drench at monthly • Biocontrols released once
5. Notes: Another study performed in British Columbia tested the systemic insecticide/miticide avermectin (Avid), two pyrethroids (permethrin and lambda-cyhalothrin) and a couple of biological controls (insect-parasitic nematodes and predatory mites). The insecticides were used as foliar sprays every two weeks and permethrin product was also applied to the mulch under the rose plants as a monthly drench.
6. Notes: While all the insecticide treatments significantly reduced the midge numbers, it is obvious that the regular applications of the permethrin (both foliar and soil drenches) performed the best, followed by the foliar applications of the lambda-cyhalothrin. The biological controls were not good at controlling this midge!
7. Rose Midge Controls (BugDoc Perspectives) Cultural Controls Ground covers, hand pick? Preventive Insecticides Imidacloprid (every month – not on label!) Dinotefuran (every month – label allows) Disulfoton (every 14-21 days)? Azadirachtin (NeemAway)? Spinosad? Curative Insecticides (NOT!)
8. Notes, After working with several local Ohio rose enthusiasts, I have found that there can be several programs that work quite well for control of the rose midge. For those wishing to avoid pesticide use, putting a plastic ground cover under rose plants will intercept the midge larvae when they finish feeding. If there is no way for these larvae to get to the soil in order to spin their cocoons and pupate, they will soon die! Others claim that daily inspection of the plants and quick removal of any buds showing symptoms of midge damage can greatly reduce the midge populations. If nearby rose plants are not being managed well, there is always a chance that the midges will regularly fly in and begin a new infestation! Fortunately, the midges are quite delicate and probably don’t normally fly more than 50 to 100 feet.
9. Notes (cont’d): The neonicotinoid insecticides provide good control of rose midge, but early treatments are essential for season-long success! The soil drench (pull back the mulch so that the bases of the plants are exposed) is one of the easiest methods to apply these pesticides. Granular formulations are also available, but again, be sure to apply the granules to the soil surrounding the rose plants, NOT the mulch! Imidacloprid is not very soluble and takes a week to 10 days to achieve active levels in the plant. I recommend applications start when there is 1.5 to 2.0 inches of green showing in the spring! This is pretty early! Dinotefuran (Safari & Green Light systemic insecticide with Safari) is highly water soluble and moves much more rapidly in plants. Again early applications are important for success. Most imidacloprid labels only allow one application in a season, while dinotefuran labels allow several. To be most effective, dinotefuran seems to work best when applied during flushes of new growth (about every 30 to 40 days). Older products, like the rose systemic granules that contain Disulfoton, can also be effective if applied TO THE ROOTS every two to three weeks. Some web blogs are also suggesting that the botanical insecticide, azadiractin, and the microbial insecticide, spinosad, can be effective if used on a regular basis.

Hi Moses,

Once Cyonara is dry, it forms a residue that can remain active for several weeks, depending on environmental conditions and the surface it's applied to. For outdoor applications, rainfastness (the ability to withstand rainfall or watering without being washed off) is generally within a few hours after application.

Moses previously debunked (here, in this Forum) the main conclusions of the Robin Rosetta (flawed) study which Dr. Shetlar featured (many years ago) in his slide presentation.

Not bad for an English major.

Last year, I encountered rose midges for the first time, regrettably in my own garden. I shared my experiences and solutions across several forum topics, detailing what helped me manage the infestation. While I still have them, they are now in a manageable quantity.

You Roses Forum folks astonish me. The knowledge base you have is mind boggling. Let me first thank you all for the incredible amount of help you have been to me in my rose care issues, in particular, combating the worst of the worst insect pests in my part of the country, and in particular, in my garden...the rose midge fly.

You have no idea how devastating this tiny insect can be. Drop the ball and be late with a spray and bingo, the midge have attacked.

What was destined to be a beautiful bloom, especially one from a new basal cane (basal canes being the life blood of a bush), never forms because that basal cane which was destined to reach 4' easily, is stopped dead in its tracks at 1' tall, and matures at that 1' point of growth proceeding no further, only to be a puny runt from which only even more puny laterals emerge.

The onslaught is everywhere in the roses when a spray session is omitted. Resume spraying and stay steadfast on schedule is the only solution.

I wish there was a way to keep midge from the neighbors' roses from reinfesting my roses if I just lapse once in my spray program.

This year has been a very good year because I am able to keep up with the spray routine. Purchasing the Scotts battery powered sprayer in use this year, as fraught with design errors as it is, has made my evening spray sessions proceed much more easily and with much less dread.

Thanks again, all, for giving me such a vast amount of information to study. The amount of effort some of you have put into your responses leaves me in grateful awe.

Moses

Blast From the Past:

Here is Moses critiquing the (flawed) study elena copied and pasted (she posted it here, in this discussion) from Dr. Shetlar’s old slide presentation. The ”pseudo scientists” Moses refers to are Robin Rosetta and colleague.

Not bad for an English major.

When before or since have you seen him use all caps (followed by an exclamation mark)?

!

Rifis,

The study is seriously flawed on a multitude of points in the first place. This is typical with research done by pseudo scientists at educational institutions.

Three test plots were selected: a control plot, one for Merit (imidacloprid), as a pre-emergent soil granule, applied on Feb. 23; and one for Tempo 2, sprayed every 2 weeks, 12 sessions total, starting on April 8.

By July 15, it was determined that the control plot showed little midge damage so a second control plot was selected to act as the control. WHAT! What if both the treated plots also experienced very light midge pressure that year having nothing to do with their insecticide treatments.

The test results are ruined by this unscientific process. The professors who placed their names on this so called research are not thinking or acting correctly.

Also, what variety/class of rose was used in each test plot? If the test roses were not identical in variety/class, and number of each, age of bushes, and care given in each plot, the test results are inaccurate.

Hybrid teas, with their fat, chunky growing tips are prime targets for midge attacks. At the other end of rose classes, cluster bloomers like polyanthas and floribundas do not experience the heavy midge pressure that hybrid teas do.

I am not saying that Merit or Tempo 2 are NOT effective midge killers. I have been using an insecticide in the same family as Merit for many years, with great midge control results.

By what means Tempo 2 (cyfluthrin), controls midge, I do not know. It's obviously killing either: adult flies, eggs, larvae, or pupae, somehow, but don't go by the flawed test described above. You tell me how it accomplishes its task?

Moses

Without delving deeply into the study Moses referred to, I can say that he has a very valid point. In most cases, statistical studies in academia are conducted by non-statisticians, often resulting in the omission of properly setting up the test/control experiment and failing to consider all potential confounding effects.