Sultry,

I hope that they are better than expected.

Fed-Ex tortures me!

Moses.

Sultry, I've received more damaged boxes from FedEx than any other shipper.

You can usually refuse delivery on box that looks all messed up for that reason. Usually it will go back to sender and you get reimbursed. It's good to order from companies that have some sort of warantee or guarantee. If the box looks "normal", but after you open it, you realize that the plants were not correctly secured and/or are all shaken up/damaged despite the instructions on the box (like "fragile, live plants")...then often the company you ordered from, will reimburse or send new plants and/or file a claim with the delivery company. Idem if the plants are all dead or dying due to delay. Take a photo immediately of the box/ the contents scrambled inside the box, and the roses as they are and send (like the same day) to the company you ordered from. Also, to avoid shipping delays that might kill the plants, or waiting all day for deliverers that never come, I tend to have things delivered to an official drop-off site or the post office, because in my city, they will say they tried to contact you but you weren't there.

All businesses have a beginning, a middle, and an end....all businesses. It's sad but true. How many of you remember: Sears & Roebuck, K-Mart, and Fiat 128-A model (my favorite 'crash-mobile,' from the 1970's)?

We may be witnessing this process unfolding before our eyes with David Austin English Roses.

I do believe that David Austin (1926-2018, 92 yrs.), accomplished his goal magnificently.....to produce a new class of roses, English Roses (over 160 varieties so far, and counting), having the charm and fragrance of old garden roses (OGRs), but with the repeat bloom and color range of modern roses. He started with Constance Spry, introduced in 1961!

Unfortunately, in my case, gardening where summers are hot and humid, where fungal diseases run rampant, I can only grow about 5 Austin roses out of the over 160 varieties he bred. Additionally, if any rose is heavily petaled as Austins usually are, and also has a weak neck, as most Austins do, the frequent summer deluges of rain turn the blooms into drooping, soggy messes here.

So, thank you David Austin for your contribution to the rose world. I can enjoy photos of Austins here on the Roses Forum that my fellow members have submitted. I regret that your roses were not bred for my climate, and that I cannot enjoy them growing in my own rose garden.

Moses.

@Moses, Pitt PA, cold W & hot-humid S, z6, you could be right, seems like lots of bad decisions, like @windowsill_gardener pointed out, perhaps even quality issues. LIke the Rose Geek recently published content where she SP'd a lot of DA's that didn't give her joy, and the Gardener Ben has been critical of new releases Emma Bridgewater and The King's Roses. Here in the EU, there is really almost nothing left to buy, so...that's it. Perhaps a new creator new will take their place? Massad roses are pretty innovative, for ex., and would recommend, "Diablesse de mers" (translates as "She-devil of the seas"), which will amaze by changing colors like "Josepha and the Technicolor dreamcoat." Docteurs Massad is a knockout, too.

Massad roses are in a class of their own....remarkable examples of the art of rose breeding!

Moses.

I wonder how any one those Massads mentioned would do with blackspot no spray?

Impossible to say positively, Dianela, but I venture to say...slim! 😞

Moses.

Re that YouTube video: the moment anyone refers to the Blackspot pathogen as bacterial, they've lost all credibility in my eyes.

Fed Ex drops packages off in our driveway and takes off, even if we were supposed to be signing for them. They pushed out a wine cooler thatI had ordered this past fall and took off. They dented the door on it. I cringe whenever I see that Fed Ex is the only option lol.

These roses don't look too bad considering. I have them in rain water now. The only really questionable one so far, is Jude. It has two 1 inch stubs and one 3 inch cane that looks ripped by a machine..bark stripped half off. Young Lycidis is completely leafed out with pale pink transluscent leaves :O I noticed that they cut the roots way shorter than they used to -and completely off on a few. I'm guessing so they could all fit in the new smaller boxes. Hmmm

@sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish), sorry to hear that your roses had it so rough, and that you actually managed to get ahold of a Jude and it's all messed up! Hope it recovers with some TLC. I love that one, it is in my top 10,...the perfume alone... @Paul Barden, oops, that totally went by me. Perhaps coincidence, but everything here flushing out with lovely new leaves for Spring in the dampest, darkest February, like ever, my yard's a puddle......And thanks again for the advice about the chucking Baron! Is there a "no fly" list for roses?!

Sultry , i am so sorry to hear your roots are chopped ! mine were like that last year and i had quite a few failures. im so nervous for mine to come. First off , they are well over a month past bare root time imo here. we have 80s all week and its going to be so warm for them ! last year same .. they came a grey green shade and some only sprouted a couple eyes then went kaput .

i did see sheila mention her rose ” munstead wood ” came with long roots . wonder why the change ? I hope jude pulls through .

paris i really enjoy all of gardener bens videos . hes been so helpful even though my climate is completely different ! they are a treat to watch .

Moses , i hope this isnt the beginning of the end. however i have to share my very first rose purchase was from sears garden center in pittsburgh ! they had gotten in antique roses for some reason and i chose mme pierre oger . it was a black spot magnet, only bloomed in the spring really yet it kicked off the biggest addiction of my life :)

then i bought all the jackson and perkins roses and they too were a bs nightmare lol

@Lilyfinch z9a Murrieta Ca, the pruning those bareroots received sounds brutal, am crossing fingers for you! So, Mme Pierre Oger for the "no fly" list despite it's addictive qualities? Or a keeper nevertheless? What started me on the road to perdition was Munstead Wood--and then The Prince-- the fragrances! And oh those dark reds! The Prince can be found around Europe under Ausvelvet but Munstead has been completely wiped off the market/map here, nowhere to be found in the UK or EU, not off label, in little nurseries, or in Germany (from where they often still grow and ship old DA's around the EU).... Such a shame! First buds today on The Prince, Ebb Tide the Massad rose Christian Tetedoie (which can be get almost black red for those looking for that), and Louis XIV (another dark-red) older old rose and keeper, which is usually my first off the mark! Spring is here!!!!!

Because it's likely that 'Munstead Wood' will vanish from commerce here in the US in the not-too-distant future as well, I bought one this year, direct from Austin USA. This is the first newer Austin rose I have acquired in twenty years, having become wholly disillusioned by their poor performance in my climate (namely their Blackspot problem). It's a shame that after all these decades, the Austin roses as a whole are still (in the words of David Austin Sr.) "martyrs to disease". At least they certainly are here in the PNW. I'm not especially hopeful that 'Munstead Wood' is going to be any better, but it's a variety I have admired often and I figure I better try it now, before it's no longer an option.

The plant I received from Austin USA (arrived a few days ago) was a respectable specimen: I would call it a Grade 1.5, with decent roots, although half the roots were 8" long and the other half were 15" long. Someone did a goofy cut on those roots, but that's fine. It arrived damp, in a plastic bag, with no mold or any kind of storage damage. There are many bud eyes starting to swell, so I have no reason to think it's not going to make a strong plant.

I'm sad that it's budded onto 'Dr. Huey', but that rootstock is pretty much inescapable here in the US these days. I hate that understock with a passion. While some people have not had suckering issues with it (lucky you!), I've had a number of Weeks and Austin roses send up "Dr. Phooey" suckers eventually. Sometimes it takes 15 years to happen but often less, even if you do plant the bud union 3" underground. I just hope it's not virused.

Looks like DA in the UK today had a limited stock release on Munstead Wood, Jude, and Lady Emma Hamilton (and possibly a few other retired roses). They said they'll have more next year, so for anyone in the UK wanting them, keep your eyes peeled next year

Munstead does very well for me in PA, I don't spray and it's healthy with excellent heat performance. I have a few of the dark red english roses and this one is the best out of all of them for me. A continual bloomer that keeps pumping out blooms all the way into December. I do start to see some blackspot around October, but that's pretty typical for our climate and time of year with the cold wet nights. It's my favorite rose and I hope you enjoy yours Paul. Fingers crossed no virus

Moses, which DAs have you tried? My healthiest two are Desdemona and Spirit of Freedom. Neither of them get blackspot here and SoF only gets sunshine part of the day

I've been so overjoyed with the two Massad roses I tried from Roses Unlimited, that I'd like to try to snag some more. Versigny and Sonia Rykiel were both excellent. Sonia's fragrance is to die for and both of these roses have the prettiest flowers I've ever seen. Sonia was very healthy, Versigny was above average. Hoping both made it through this awfully cold and windy winter we've had this year

I do wish you luck, Paul. I bought another in my case because of the threat of extinction too.

My "The Prince" are also wonderful in that color category.

I did order an own root DA MW but they sent grafted. It is staying.

Rose Paris said:

”I have found that the recent DA roses that come directly from DA in Europe (rather than another source) seem to do the worst”

Rose Paris I can only concur, given my recent experience. Last year I got another Gertrude Jekyll and new Emma Bridgewater direct from DA Europe and they were really puny and skinny-caned. GJ is such a strong, vigorous rose, especially grafted, but with this specimen, all the canes were considerably less than pencil thick, some as thin as 2mm and all frankly were worthy only of being pruned out. It struggled to grow much and only managed to produce two very small blooms that could be described as semi-double at best. EB was a little better, but with a rather limp, twiggy habit and smallish, nodding blooms that fried in heat. The jury is definitely out on EB but I will see how it does this year.

I have been perfectly happy with the quality and size of roses ordered direct before, but that was pre Brexit when they were grown in and shipped from the UK. I won’t be ordering from DA Europe again, why would I when I can get far better specimens at a third of the price from other EU suppliers?

@Elestrial 7a, thanks for the tip... I quickly went to the EU site and looked up a few "oldies but goodies," and saw that DA EU were saying that due to popular demand, they would be offering limited varieties of "cancelled" roses like Munstead Wood and Jude the Obscure in the future. But there was a warning message (with exclamation sign like the road warning sign) that due to disease and bloom problems, they highly recommend Gabriel Oak and Dannahue instead, both of which have failed to impress me. @Paul Barden, my Munstead did really well when it (unusually hit the high 90s-100s and didn't rain for weeks), pretty much did not stop blooming all summer, and still was blooming in December when it (when it, unusually, froze and snowed a bit more than usual). I finally cut off the last bud around Christmas vacation to let it sleep and because of the relentless abnormal cold. It never gets sprayed. Hope it works for you!

Roses are not grafted on Huey here, but I have found many of my DA roses have growth that shoots out from below the bud union, even on younger roses, which is why I have decided to only do own-root from now on, although for another Lady Emma or Munstead, I might put up with a graft, like @Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR. At NollieSpainZ9 I think Brexit is definitely part of it. I have been ordering DA roses from other sources, and they just seem to do better, especially own-root... And are less expensive. So far, no issues with anything shooting out below the bud union on any Meilland or Massad rose, can't say if that's luck on my part or skill on the part of the producers.

@Rose Paris I felt like their alternative suggestions were a little off the mark. Darcey Bussell I think is a closer substitute for Munstead Wood than Gabe, and for Lady Emma Hamilton they suggested Lady of Shalott which for me is a big sprawling rose that I've trained as a climber against a wall. Maybe she is more tame in Europe?

The warning label was a bit dramatic - my gut says they don't want their newer roses to compete with the older, unpatented ones so they push the 'these are unhealthy' narrative a little too much. Let people buy what they want to try and don't scare them out of it

@Elestrial 7a, Darcey Bussell is a cancelled rose here, too, although it looks like they might bring it back. MW and DB seem to be the same color, but DB doesn't have the fragrance? They are bringing back Tess, which for me, is the one that got away: have heard great things about that? I am in love with Tradescant, which is super low-maintenance, and serioulsy grows in part shade, don't know why they cancelled it? Maybe because smaller blooms than the usual DA, or because it gets viney? But zero health issues for me... Very shiny...

Lady of Shallott is tall and lanky so training it to climb is a good idea! I have already had issues with sucker growth on mine, even though it's only 4-5 years old. Frustrating! So might shift it for something else. This might not be the fault of the variety but the graft. After pruning, am not sure what of the real plant is left. Lady Emma is a more prolific bloomer, for me but it stays short, comparatively. You're right, the warning label with exclamation point symbol is dramatic! These are roses not cigarettes!

@Rose Paris Oh no, I did not realize Darcey was retired over there in the UK, it's still sold state-side. No wonder they recommended Gabe instead then. Gabe has a moderate fragrance, but it's nothing to write home about.

Tess I did have health issues with - mine is entering her 9th year this spring. She had mildew issues every spring and fall and a lot of blackspot. StrawChicago suggested giving her 2 tbsp of sulfate of potash every 5 weeks in the growing season and that worked like a charm for the blackspot, she stayed clean. I still haven't solved the mildew issue, but it's not terrible. Just annoying. She's a great rose

Tradescant is one I'd really like but seems impossible to find here, didn't realize it was shade tolerant. Does it have any issues with burning in the afternoon sun?

So sorry about your suckering issues with LoS, what a pain

I haven't noticed any burning or balling on Tradescant, and I do have two (out of four) in direct afternoon sun (5-6 hours in summer). The part-shade one is under open sky but only gets an hour or two of direct sun in the summer (and yet gets great blooms!) Thanks for tip about the potash!

For me, 'Tradescant' is one of the only roses I have ever grown that can have Mildew, Blackspot and copious Rust all at the same time.

Lily, Now I am worried about those chopped short roots lol. Usually Edmunds and D Austin have huge long roots that I actually have to trim if they are going to be potted up. I'm kinda disappointed at how short they are now. I should probably start all the chopped rooted ones in pots, just in case. I am surprised they shipped my Austins this early. Usually I dont get them until March here 8b/9a ish. Feb is better than March for me.

I did order 2 Mustead Woods and their roots are probably the longest. I will have to look and make a note of which all ones have the shortest roots just in case they do poorly. I think the 2 Jubilee Celebrations and Charles Rennie M. have very chopped roots. Its been super windy and cold here the last week. Our drought has finally broken so we got a lot of rain. Froze the last 3 nights of course, after weeks of really beautiful weather. I will get these potted and planted this weekend.

I got a new fun tool to put in posts and plant roses, shrubs etc. Its a Predator Gas powered Earth Auger from Harbor Freight. It makes it so easy! We used it to put some posts in the barn the other day and it took about 10 min to drill 5 post holes. Can't wait to use it this spring. I'm done digging by hand.

HF photo

Wow, it's wild how we all have different experiences. My Tradescants are either own-root (2 of 4) or grafted on something that is not Dr. Huey, possibly rosa canina or laxa (as those two come from Germany). I admit that, when I bought them, I was too amateur to ask. Don't know if that makes a difference? I definitely see a difference. The Tradescants that are own root are taller, glossier, climbers, and healthier. Eew about the rust, PM and BS combo, though. So sorry! My Tradescants are really quite healthy. When I've seen rust on any of my roses (and never on the Trandescansts), it's usually later in the year, when the roses are tired, so I just defoliate... Is it that bad?

@Rose Paris Here in the USA, it is a common experience with 'Tradescant' that it will Rust, and often have at least one of the other diseases also. I have had many people I know report a similar experience with it. Mine is still out there and it persists (barely), but it has not exceeded 24" in 25 years.

Tradescant's definitely not a tall plant. The own-roots are standing at about 12 inches higher than the grafted right now (they're about 3 years old): they want to climb! It might prefer the NW exposure to the SE, but the SE one grows behind and around Abraham Darby, so ... hard to say... What both varieties like to do is make vines, so they end up intertwined ... The flowers are fragrant works of art, but they do not make perfect shrub-shapes, for sure.

AD (which blooms into December) is another they seem to be bringing back with their infamous truly odd "warning" label in Europe (with the exclamation point symbol!). Still no sign of Evelyn reboot, more's the pity. This year I threw dried blood fertilizer in the beds a bit early, and it seems to have been helpful, leaves are coming back glossy.. (if you have dogs or wild animals be careful about doing that--now I put it in the beds in the rain so that it gets instantly absorbed and animals can't eat it as it often entails creatures digging! I can't even with the manure or compost, as my dogs would be all over it).

@sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish), that power tool looks really helpful and efficient. Sorry to hear about your Jubilee Celebrations and your Charles Rennie Mackintosh. I bet JC will love the Florodia sunshine!

They are both cancelled now in the EU, don't know if that will happen everywhere, but as an FYI...

Another thing that many rose gardeners experienced with the Austin English shrub roses is that they are just that, shrubs.

They are not the much beloved exhibition hybrid tea, as gangly and not suitable for a centerpiece bush as shrub roses are, but their narrow, upright growth habit makes them perfect for a deep bed....a bed where navigation through it to work the roses (dead heading, weeding, fertilizing, etc.,), is less dangerous than accessing the inward parts of a wide, spreading branched deep (3+ bushes deep), shrub rose bed.

Then there's the flower form. The visual appeal of an exhibition winning quality hybrid tea bloom has an undeniable visual impact that an English shrub rose bloom, with its confused, casual centers just does not have.

Old timers, especially those schooled in the heyday of the past hybrid tea dominated era, generally resist the modern English shrub roses. Old habits die hard.

Moses.

@Moses, Pitt PA, cold W & hot-humid S, z6, now hybrid teas are not something that work super well in my climate. I think it's too cloudy? The ones I have are far more likely to have mold issues than Austins, especially Black Baccara, which is beautiful, but ugh...Definitely have to make sure not to water it wrong and often it's the one I have to pull a leave off of to keep it from being patient zero... The fun thing about it (other than the color) is that a flower can somehow last for weeks on it until it basically turns to dust in its perfect shape. I am going to try an own-root Black Perfumella, its cousin, this year to see if it's better. Many hybrid teas here do get a couple of large magificent blooms at time, in flushes, but nothing like the amount of blooms at once on Generous Gardner, Munstead Wood, Claire Austin, Olivia Rose or Golden Celebration. Since the Austin catalog was spare this year, I got a couple of new HTs last fall so we'll see! Any suggestions?

Rose Paris,

Certainly, most roses that have true hybrid tea formed blooms are fungus disease basket cases! You really have to dig deep into the current offerings to find disease free varieties. Forget the older hybrid tea varieties. They were bred with a disregard for disease resistance because it was universally accepted back then that routine spraying with a fungicide went without saying if you gardened where summers are both hot and humid.

The only true hybrid tea bloom formed rose I grow now is Oh Happy Day, that's rock solid disease free here. All my other 'so called,' hybrid teas are just named hybrid tea by their breeders (their prerogative), but although nice looking, are not classic hybrid tea bloom formed at all.

I hope to give the Kordes hybrid tea, Grand Amore, a second try soon. I was too hasty in shovel pruning it a while back....should have given this disease free rose a year or two more.

Moses.

Moses, DA’s whole USP is shrub roses (which also happens to be my favourite form) so I wouldn’t expect or indeed want them to breed hybrid teas. Plenty of other breeders fulfil that need admirably don’t you think?

I point blank refuse to spray anything, but the older HT Just Joey acquitted itself pretty well in it’s first year with me, only getting some BS later in the season. I recall Mrs Oakely Fisher, another old HT with large single blooms, being fairly healthy too. I have had less health success with older reds and purples, but bought Tantau’s Noblesse this year, which is supposed to be both healthy and fragrant - we shall see!

“The visual appeal of an exhibition winning quality hybrid tea bloom has an undeniable visual impact that an English shrub rose bloom, with its confused, casual centers just does not have.”

I find that sentiment comes uncomfortably close to the kind of snobbery I have witnessed at many ARS shows in years past. It suggests a ”mine is better than yours” attitude towards roses that has plagued many rose societies and has deterred many potential growers from joining local ARS groups - I have seen it happen at my own local branch -and it was one of the most significant factors leading to the demise of our group a decade ago.

We all have our preferences, and thats great, but the superiority thing is something we can do without, thank you. I grow a bit of literally everything and l do not consider one type any better than any other. ’Tiffany’ and ’Mister Lincoln’ are as welcome in my garden as is ’James Mason’, ’Stanwell Perpetual’, ’Little Buckaroo’, ’Crested Sweetheart’, ’Tuscany Superb’, R. woodsii fendleri, ’Darlow’s Enigma’, ’Ebb Tide’, ’Roundelay’, ’Botzaris’, ’Veilchenblau’, ’Souvenir de Philemon Cochet’, ’Othello’ and scores of roses as diverse in pedigree and style as they come.

It seems odd to me to criticize the Austin hybrids for being exactly what they are designed to be: shrub style plants with a variety of loose bloom forms that attempt to emulate heirloom varieties. This was precisely the goal - to create more variety in a landscape dominated by ”cookie cutter” roses that had - to a degree - worn out their welcome with gardeners who hungered for something different.

That attitude is why I've steered clear of the rose society groups near me, and joined one a few hours away instead that appreciates all roses, not just the exhibition hybrid teas. Personally, I love to grow a little bit of everything. I'll admit the high centered roses I'm not as fond of, I prefer the old garden style roses, but all roses are welcome here, especially if they are fragrant

I agree with the existence of that kind of bias. I’ve also found that older women are very attached to the roses they grew up with, manly classic hybrid teas. My grandmother-in-law will only have hybrid tea types in her yard. I’m a millennial and our roses are manly disease resistant newer varieties. We have 150 roses and about 60 varieties. None are older hybrid teas and I think our only rose created before the late 1990’s are two climbers: new dawn and Zephirine Drouhin. I appreciate a more old fashion romantic rose shape because to me it looks like it’s from nature. I like classic hybrid tea shape but acknowledge that they look to me to be more a creation of breeding and stand out from the natural landscape. (If you could call a garden that)

We could do without the ridiculous gender typecasting too, Geoffrey. Older women that only like ’manly’ hybrid teas? Really?? I better pass that on to all my older women friends and tell them they have been growing the wrong roses all these years.

I prefer the natural look of the arching, bushy roses too Geoffrey. But it is nice to have some hybrid teas for tight spots - I like how they kind of stay in their own space and you don't have to worry about them crawling out and covering the neighbors. I just tend to pop them behind other plants to hide their naked legs

I am 73 now, female, and love all the rose varieties. I see many old men love HTs like Moses.

HTs are more practical for me, also. My rose bed is 18' long and 8' deep. That's about four (4), HT rose bushes deep. Because of their vertical, columnar growth, squeezing between them to work them during the growing season is less dangerous than if I had sprawling shrub roses, daring me to enter! 😁

Moses.

@NollieSpainZ9 I believe Geoffrey made a typo — I'm pretty sure that was intended to be "mainly" not "manly"!

Going back to Moses' original statement: "I remember when a new Austin rose was a real head turner, not anymore."

You could just as easily substitute "Hybrid Tea" for "Austin rose" and it would be just as true.

Ha, you are doubtless right Paul! However, I now can’t get the thought of ‘manly’ hybrid teas out of my head!

Ladies favoring "manly hybrid teas"--well, I guess that's one way to garden! LOL

I am an older woman (Sheila, you are a mere child), and I'm not attracted to manly hybrid teas at all. What Bee Ess. So Geoffrey, are you an older woman? Quit making assumptions about us right now. Diane

Gives the term "manscaping" a whole new meaning....

Now I'm thinking about which Hybrid Tea varieties could be considered "manly" 😅

Folks, I am pretty confident that Geoffrey meant to say MAINLY, not MANLY. It's a typo, not a judgement.

But manly is much more fun. Manscaping. Chortle. Snort.

Yes, I meant to type “mainly”. I think some very red hybrid tea roses have a masculine manliness about them. Mr. Lincoln maybe.

Hard to not joke about shrubbery here... Speaking of roses named after rather masculine personages, @Paul Barden, I see you mentioned Othello. I got one recently and its flowers are amazing. How does it do over time? Repeat bloom? Size? I agree with you, I have a bit of everything in my garden. I guess I am not the perfect manscaper! :)

@Rose Paris 'Othello' was the first David Austin rose I ever grew, purchased circa 1993 from the now-defunct Cruickshank Garden Centre on Mount Pleasant Road in Toronto. It was immediately apparent that in the Toronto environment, it was highly susceptible to Blackspot, extremely thorny (the nastiest, razor-wire thorns) and it grew like an old Hybrid Perpetual: canes akimbo with 90% of the bloom at the ends. But yeah, the blooms were exquisite and the fragrance unparalleled.

Fast forward 33 years and I still have it, growing on its own roots — a cutting taken from the original plant I owned. It is nearly impossible to grow out in the open garden without contstant spraying, and it doesn't love my clay soil, so 3 years ago I took a cutting again and moved it into one of the empty greenhouses (open-ended poly hoop style), planted in the "floor" of the greenhouse. It does reasonably well there and produces a very nice first crop of bloom in May, with scattered bloom thereafter. Because it's in a limited space, I am keeping it manicured to fit a 6 X 6 foot space.

I like it still, but I don't love it. Those first dozen blooms in the spring are amazing, it's true. But in all honesty, it takes up a lot of space for the few magnificent blooms it provides, and it's downright unpleasant to handle, with those truly nasty thorns. I keep it for sentimental value only. It's not a variety I can recommend.

@Paul Barden, thanks for the detailed info. It sounds very large!