The beginning of the end occurred when David Austin, senior, died. I think that was 2018. Diane

Yes, David Austin, senior, had the flair and the eye.

I agree Moses....the glamour and fascination for the Austin roses is fading. Austin began what can only be called a rose revolution with his incredible contributions to rose breeding. He got people to look away from hybrid teas and to consider a new way to grow and design with roses.

But the allure is largely gone, as other breeders make major strides in health and vigor. It's such a fun and exciting time to be growing roses!!

Disease resistance, or more exactly, lack thereof, will be the final death knell for the Austins. Roses that only do well in low humidity, low rainfall, and mild to barely any winter conditions have a limited market. I will not miss Austin's money hungry business practices. What a greedy gout he was.

Moses.

There are many parts of the world where extreme disease resistance is not a requirement, Moses. For some of us, DA roses are our best performers, including me. Black spot is hardly seen in my garden, but powdery mildew is something I deal with every spring and fall. So far, my DA roses are hands down my most resistant to PM. They are vigorous, healthy and floriferous for me and my favorites. I don’t think David Austin senior was in the business just for the money. He was passionate about rose breeding and much of the current trend towards garden roses can be credited to him. Of course, a man who put that much of his life energy into something, should make money from it as well. I don’t begrudge the family for inheriting his wealth and business. I do differ with some of the current policies and wonder if the offspring will run the business into the ground eventually. I hope not, but I don’t think they are fully carrying on the legacy of their ancestors.

I don't have much disease issues with my Austins and summers here are very humid. I also overhead water with a sprinkler when it's too dry out. There are a couple, like Abraham Darby, which blackspot, but most are clean until mid-October when it gets cold. I wonder if they have an issue with virused stock, because I have seen posts here from 10+ years ago about the vigor of varieties that do not do well in my garden or in the nearby public garden that has a good collection of them.

My issue with Austin is they do not provide accurate information on winter hardiness. My experience with them here is the grafted plants grow very vigorously first year, throwing the huge, annoying octopus canes, and then when winter hits, they come back but dwindle backwards. Then they don't come back after the second winter. The own-roots are much better for me. They are slower but more dependable. I bury the graft and I mulch well. Some, like St. Swithun, are very hardy. Many Austins simply do not thrive in a cold zone 5. Why do I have to scour the internet for this information? Surely they have someone there who can provide more guidance about which are truly hardy. I wish they had invested in more cold weather test beds in order to be able to say what can stand up to winter. I am going to try putting concrete blankets over several of them to winterize them this year, and if that leads to better performance, I might invest in more in the future. Otherwise, I'll be trying roses from other breeders out and focusing on the OGRs that take little effort to grow.

With that said, I have had several times when I emailed the company and said that this rose or that is simply not hardy and they have substituted it with another variety to try for free the following year. In past years, they have sent free bushes I did not order when they couldn't meet my order. What other rose company is going to let you repeatedly test their roses out, for years, after only purchasing one?

With a lot more European roses coming onto the market now I am interested in trying some of them out, but not unless the company is able to give firm information other than "should be good to zone 5". For instance, I never heard back from the April and Ashley customer service when I inquired about this, and won't be purchasing from them, even though they might have some good roses in there.

I forgot to mention that I am freely availing myself of the out of patent roses that they refuse to sell any more, that are said to be hardier, both with my own shears, and through trading.

Josg, I am confused by some conflicting statements in your long post above. You said that you don’t have good success with grafted DA roses. Then you said, “ The own roots are much better for me. They are slower but more dependable. I bury the graft and I mulch well.”

How can you “bury the graft” on an own root rose? An own root rose has no graft.

Ah, I can see how that would be confusing. I meant that, when I do get the grafted versions instead of the own-root, based on what is available, I take good care to protect the graft based on the common cold weather practice of burying the graft a few inches below the soil and mulching well. Even with good protection, the grafted roses often fail.

Also an interesting data point, our rose club gets grafted Austins donated from a Canadian grower every year for our annual sale. The Canadian grafted Austins tend do to better in my garden than those shipped from Austin's grower in Texas.

If you have severe black spot pressure as rose growers here in Western Pennsylvania experience (and still grow the quickly defoliating Austins (by July 1st.), due to black spot unless we here do not take drastic measures...regular conventional spraying), I want to know what you are doing to successfully grow Austins, black spot free, if you do not spray?

Moses.

I truly get peeved when someone asserts how well their Austin's do for them, who enjoy, 'paradisiacal,' rose growing conditions regarding the much dreaded black spot I must endure here in the, "Burgh." It leaves me with the impression that you are saying that I am an inferior rose gardener.

"Why can't you be like me and grow Austins successfully. What's wrong with you?" Is this what you are back handedly saying?

Please don't one up me.

Moses.

We are spoilt into expecting an amazing introduction every year. Some years you’ll get a Nye Bevan, some years you’ll get a Jubilee Celebration, Every breeder is trying to healthier and less disease prone roses but it takes a long time to get there

I was just noticing how lovely the red hips are on my Tottering Gently by. They really stand out to since there isn’t a single leaf on the shrub to obscure them! I'll be removing it and Boscobel. Roald Dahl is still passable. It and Olivia will be my only Austins next year and I doubt I will try any more.

I truly hope the Austin’s continue to improve and do well in a larger variety of situations. I, like Moses garden with lots of humidity/blackspot and would love to grow all the Austin’s. I think David Austin was very passionate about roses. He had to face lots of resistance to all his initial efforts to introduce these roses, and he never gave up. I would miss them if they disappeared. I hope the newer generation manages to improve them for everyone.

@Josg Maggsib the difference in grafted roses between Texas vs Canadian suppliers is likely the species of rootstock. Roses grown in Texas and California are typically grafted onto Dr Huey, which does NOT do well below zone 7 whereas the roses grown in Canada are grafted onto Multiflora, which is much hardier.

@Moses, Pitt PA, cold W & hot-humid S, z6, couldn’t agree more. It’s disheartening when those blessed with near-perfect rose-growing conditions speak as though their success reflects some higher gardening virtue. Those of us who contend daily with black spot, humidity, and relentless pests live in an entirely different reality. Remarks like, “Why can’t you grow Austins like I do?” carry a condescending note, however unintended.

Fortunately, there is only one person who tends to do this, and it’s best to simply let their comments pass unnoticed.

Dr. Huey is perfectly hardy well below zone 7.

The big difference between Dr. Huey and R. multiflora is in pH tolerance.

I haven't found any difference in the performance of multiflora rootstock and Dr Huey in my alkaline soil. I question that assumption about pH tolerance. They both do equally well in zone 7 temps here, too. I'm just speaking for this area. Diane

yes, interesting about the multiflora and ph comment, because my soil is quite alkaline. i was thinking maybe the grafting just wasn't done as well or something.

Quick info search pulls this up:

Edited to add this article from the Santa Clarita Valley Rose Society because I'm a nerd:

http://www.santaclaritarose.org/Rootstock2.html

It's interesting reading material.

We are very alkaline here And Multiflora seems to have no problem at all wilding.!

Hmmm, I’m torn here. While the newer ones haven’t jumped to the top of my favorite list I do still love my Austins. Funnily enough today I made a top 25 of my 500 roses and 13 were Austins.

I do struggle with considerable blackspot here in Western Washington but the Austins seem to like my weather-I think we are similar to where they are bred.

My biggest problem with new releases (Austins and others) is that I don’t want a florist rose. I don’t want an ugly plant shape and I don’t want something that needs pampering.

Fortunately with 500 roses, 500 hostas and a bunch of other stuff I don’t have much room left. But I still want to see more of that Beckham rose. If it is a nice plant shape with good health and frgarance and maybe the beauty of a Dainty Bess? I could be in🤷🏻‍♀️

About an hour north of me you stop seeing feral multiflora. Amur honeysuckle is all over the place, but the multiflora can't handle the conditions.

Roses grafted on multiflora do fine for me for several years. Then after about 5-6 years, they have a near death experience over the winter, and either come back obviously own-root, or don't really come back at all. Roses on either Dr. Huey or R. laxa don't do this.

Going the other direction, my other garden was originally stocked with roses donated by J&P. The north side had a pH of about 6.2. The south side was about 5.2. The whole garden looked tipped since the north roses were about twice the size of the south ones, and the height tracked with the pH.

Moses, I think judi is right. None of the comments seem to me to nasty or "I'm better than you"-ish! Anyone who knows anything about roses knows that it's all "location, location, location". I also kind of assumed that everyone knows that many places on the east coast of the USA have bspot issues, and that Austins in particular can be very, very different in different climates and locations. Well, that could be said of all roses, I guess. I'm sorry you felt so hurt.

Josg, I think that most of Europe tends to be warmer than the truly cold areas of the USA https://www.hobbyseeds.com/plant-hardiness-zones.html It's truly shocking for me to realize that almost all of the UK-northern Scotland included-counts as a zone 8! A lot of the coastal areas count as-hold onto your hats- ZONE 9!!! like central Italy!!! and yet the climates are TOTALLY DIFFERENT-drastically so! In other words, the whole USDA hardiness zone stuff in reality tells us almost nothing about the climate,IMO.

Well, they are certainly evolving, as they have to. What is overlooked I think, is their thriving Florist trade, their most sumptuous looking roses are to be found in the Cut Flower market these days it seems. It adds another string to their bow, which has taken off in recent years, and become a major part of their brand. I'm guessing the late Mr Austin may not have been so keen on these types of roses initially as they cannot be grown well in gardens here in UK, but the business model took over.

Outside of Japan, I don't know of any other major rose breeders who are invested in the Florist rose trade as they are, but it's not something I follow too much.

Here's something that CoPilot produced when I asked..

Florist Rose Division: David Austin has a specialized branch known as David Austin Wedding and Event Roses, which designs and supplies cut roses specifically for the floral industry. These are distinct from their garden roses and are bred for qualities like vase life, fragrance, and visual impact.

• Ownership: The florist rose business is part of the broader David Austin brand, which remains a family-owned enterprise. The company is now led by David J.C. Austin (son of the founder) and his son Richard Austin, continuing the legacy of the original founder, David C.H. Austin.

• Product Focus: Their florist roses are especially popular in the bridal and luxury event markets, known for their romantic, English garden style. They are available through select florists and online ordering platforms for delivery.

• Global Reach: While rooted in Shropshire, UK, David Austin's florist roses are distributed internationally, often featured in high-end weddings and editorial floral design.

So, we are no longer the only market.

Kordes, Meilland, Tantau, Austin, etc. They all make lots more money on their cut rose business. The garden rose business has been a side line for many years.

David Sr. had the passion for roses. The next two generations have a passion for money.

Airflow, sun exposure and soil I think play a large part in the health of roses. I'm in southeast PA, have been at my current house for 4 years and with the exception of a 3 or 4 fussy roses, I don't see blackspot here until the fall. The roses that do blackspot are not DA's (with the exception of one - which was a soil issue that I fixed - later on that down below) - they're mainly Meilland roses. I do have a big PM issue in spring and fall though.

My last property is about 20 minutes away, and everything had terrible blackspot there all the time, but no PM, ever. They were mostly DAs, and those looked the worst. When we moved, I took most of those roses here, and the difference in their health was night and day. Our old property sloped down away from the road, so the soil stayed more moist (which I think helped with the PM), and the property was also in somewhat of a valley surrounded by hills and trees which I think broke up a lot of the wind. Closer neighbors as well who had fences. It also got a lot less sun than my current property (the roses were still in full sun - 8 hours each day during the growing season, but not as much as the sun here which is 12+ hours.) My current property is surrounded by open fields with no wind breaks so there's always some sort of breeze going on, it's very dry and very exposed - and there aren't many trees so the roses get a lot more sunlight. I haven't changed anything that I do. No spray, no systemic fungicides. I do pick up the leaves in the fall, and I mulch - which I did at the old property. The fall is when I start to see the fungal diseases, mainly anthracnose

The only other thing I can think of that I did differently here, is I added several inches of mushroom soil to all the garden beds. The old owners had 4 - 5" of hard landscape rock all over their beds (which we removed), but it had really compacted the soil underneath, making it really hard to work with.

I did have one DA rose who did blackspot all the time - tess of d, and StrawChicago suggested I try giving her 2 tbsp of potassium sulfate once a month in the growing season, which did work. She's just as healthy as the other roses (with the exception of powdery mildew, which I have a lot of issues with here.)

Not sure if any of this helps at all, but I promise I'm not doing anything different. I don't know better than anyone else here - I am certain I know FAR less. So none of this is a knock on anyone. Just hoping it might help

On the topic of Dr Huey vs Multiflora, I have noticed some small differences. Dr Huey seems to handle dry conditions and hard clay soil better, but seems more susceptible to chlorosis. I read somewhere that using multiflora as a rootstock promotes more branching, but I can't remember where I read that to verify it

The biggest issue I have with the DA roses is many of them look the same as others. The pink ones I especially have a hard time differentiating

Thank you Elestrial the potassium is something good to try.

I did try the potassium sulfate trick on the fussy Meilland roses I have, but it didn't clear the blackspot up for them - so it may not work for everyone. But definitely worth a try

I'm on the Regan Nursery email list, and I got an email two days ago about their new bare root ordering season opening on Nov. 12. Background for those who don't know, Regan was a major go-to source for mail order roses for many years, but last year they stopped shipping. They're a fabulous local real nursery in the Bay Area who also shipped bare roots. Anyway, I thought this comment about their David Austins for this year was interesting. Looks as if the supply of DA bare roots is thin this year, for whatever reason you might infer.

"We will continue to carry a large selection of potted/finished David Austin Roses in store and have one of the best selections in Northern California! However, due to a shortage of grade 1 David Austin Roses, BARE ROOT being offered to partner nurseries/growers, NO DAVID AUSTIN ROSES WILL BE OFFERED IN BARE ROOT this year."

Susan -- that sounds like Travis at our local nursery! DA doesn't prioritize them, so they don't get the bare roots they ordered, they get them very late, many not grade 1, but it's the local nursery that has to refund money when the roses don't work. So I think starting last year they only sell the roses potted -- that way they know they're selling a rose that has leafed out! It's too bad. I ordered 2 quarted roses from DA, got them end of September, but both roses were the same variety -- so I just had them refund me for the one I didn't get. That was depressing. They offered to send me a new one, but that wouldn't be shipped 'til May... So they still honor the 5 year guarantee, and they are super nice about it -- but I'd rather not have to deal with lower quality bare roots, and wrong plants being shipped!

@susan9santabarbara I was so bummed when I got that email, I had planned to order a few. Bare roots are so affordable compared to the potted plants, which went for $90/pot last year, likely more this year.

@SD Shine -Z10a Bay Area I know, right? You're lucky to have Regan as a local nursery, but major bummer on the DAs. As Deborah mentioned above, our local high-end (ish) nursery has had trouble getting the DA bare roots in a timely manner and quality for years. Please tell me that Regan isn't selling their potted roses for $90 now... or is it just the DAs? Even still for DAs, that seems really high for a 5 gallon!

Elestrial, thats very interesting that youre saying that Dr Huey does well with clay soil but us prone to chlorosis. Many of my grafted roses do seem to have a touch of chlorosis, but to my knowledge, none of my own roots do this. I have black alkaline clay and my grafted roses grow like crazy and my OR seem to take significantly longer to grow. So much so that I cringe to even order OR at all.

Glad to know I'm not alone! It is strange. I just keep chelated iron handy when the chlorosis crops back up each year. Never seen it happen on my OR roses or my multiflora grafted ones

Very disappointed in my DA purchase of Gertrude Jekyll.After waiting over a year for an out of stock.I was so pleased it was finally available.Billed 65 dollars.I was sure I would receive a decent sized product.What arrived from their nursery in Texas,was basically a recently rooted cutting in a five inch plastic pot. It was pathetic. Needless to say it barely survived the shipment stress. Im in N.H

zone 6a.Im far more comfortable shopping local nurseries. No more purchases sight unseen.

Ouch! What a disappointment! Are you taking a recourse of pursuing a refund?

Moses.

No.Ive learned a lesson.Its planted and hopefully viable.Thanks for responding.Ive noticed many DA's at local garden centers lately.None appeal to me.Ive had better luck with Meilland.

Here’s a video on Liam Beddall, Head Rosarian at DA on the breeding process from SF Rose Society:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wMdfU4j3tOM&pp=ygUac2FuIGZyYW5jaXNjbyByb3NlIHNvY2lldHk%3D

Wow! When did their plants get so expensive?

Ahh yes, I was an early arriver to this party.

I remember many here poo pooed my statements and claimed that it was just them doing business!

Something I have learned and also read about recently:

It is just as bad to be early as it is to be wrong.

Steve

Their plants are mostly 40 dollars which is cheaper than many of the other vendors after covid. They will charge shipping so probably better when buying multiple plants.

Donielle they have an excellent waranty for their roses and I am sure they will replace your rose.

They will replace it no questions asked. You just need a picture. They have replaced my Malvern hills 3 times Since my 5 years was up it better live this year.It wasn't their fault any of the 2 times.

It should come as no surprise to anyone that when some creative person gets an idea for something very specific and clearly defined that they want to create, and they spend decades working on refining that thing, that there is going to be some redundancy emerge. I've spoken to plenty of people who feel that every year Austin introduces new roses that look too much like varieties they have bred before. But it's clear to me that Austin Roses has chosen to pursue a very specific model of rose and has worked hard to refine that theme — it's an iterative approach to breeding better plants.

That's how I see what David Austin has done. If you look at 'Chianti', one of Austin's two initial introductions it's easy to see that it's a bit of a "rough draft" of the idea he was pursuing. (I can relate) It's got some bad manners in the garden (coming from crossing a Gallica with a Floribunda, surprise surprise) and blooms but once, but the flowers are elegant and the color is as rich as you could want. But compare 'Chianti' to 'Munstead Wood'; a lot of difficult territory has been traversed to get from C to M, and you can start to see the goal Austin had in mind when you look at a rose like 'Munstead Wood'. Are any of the Austin's perfect? Nope, at least not in my experience, but some of them are wonderful things. Disease resistance, shrub architecture, ease of culture, blooms form and color have all improved over those decades, and that is a feat to be celebrated. I know how difficult it is to do this kind of work and end up with a few really good plants.

But the question remains: are the newer Austin roses "redundant"? I'm not sure that's the right question. It could be that the new varieties are the result in a shift in goals. It's no secret that many (most?) Austin roses are "martyrs to disease" (In David senior's own words), and that — in my opinion — is the single most important feature that the Austin breeding lines need to improve upon. If in fact this is what is happening, then its not too surprising that new introductions may be chosen to reflect the Austin company selecting healthier plants while relaxing their definition of what makes the ideal Austin flower.

I know that I would prefer a healthy rose with less sophisticated flowers over one that has magnificent blooms but can't hang on to its foliage for five minutes because of fungal diseases. As long as Austin Roses continues to invest in superior plants with enhanced health, the company has a promising future ahead.

Thank you Paul! I can really tell the difference between many of the older Austins and newer introductions like Silas Marner which I can grow no spray here.

In the mean time, Paul, my bio-clock ticks away, day by day allowing me less time to await the Austin line's disease resistant introductions. Unfortunately, in growing roses where black spot pressure is so intense, I have just learned to skip over the new Austins routinely. The time, effort and money I have formerly wasted on Austin's makes me an automatic cynic regarding Austins ever being future candidates here.

Moses.

@dianela7analabama, good info on SM. Ill have to investigate that one.