Getting the water to wick to the top enough to moisten the fertilizer strip is mostly about the potting mix being capable of doing it. It's a fight against gravity and evaporation.

Either container size is being used by someone else as a SW container so that shouldn't be a problem. Just test your mix before committing to it to make sure it can wick to the surface. You can always dump it out and add more peat if necessary. You can also bury the fertilizer strip an inch or two into the mix to resolve the problem of the mix surface not being damp enough.

Thanks Justaguy. Should I add more peat to wick to the top? I am using Al's mix. I didn't know I could bury the fertilizer strip. I think I have read most of yours and Al's posts trying to learn this stuff. I have grown tomatoes all my life but there is a difference between sticking 40 plants (garden was half acre)in the ground in the hopes 10 live and make a few tomatoes. I am trying to plant fewer and know what I am doing so they all produce better, lol (garden is now 10 x10 other than containers). There have been many posters on here that I am learning from, but I probably have learned the most from you and Al. I was trying to find dyna-bloom that you had mentioned in another post but earthjuice is all I have been able to find. Do you use that in SW containers as well? Would a 8 wick work ok as opposed to a 6 inch?

Thanks Justaguy. Should I add more peat to wick to the top? I am using Al's mix.

I responded earlier today, but evidently forgot to actually hit the submit button since it isn't showing up ;-)

You are asking if you need to add more peat to get the water to the surface. From your first post you are indicating that you are following the EB methodology of using a fertilizer strip. The simple answer is yes, you need to add more peat or the water will not wick fast enough to the surface to keep the fertilizer strip in damp soil. If the mix around the fertilizer strip isn't damp the fertilizer won't enter the plant's root zone.

I tested a variation of Al's mix (1 part peat, 1 part turface, 2 parts bark fines) and found that indoors with the cover on it kept the surface damp, but placed out of doors the top 2-3 inches went and stayed dry even with the cover on.

I think it is important for everyone reading this to understand that Al's mix works very well in regular containers that are top watered and it also can work very well in a self watering container. Where the mix doesn't work well is in a self fertilizing container.

For any mix to work well in a self fertilizing container (in others words in an earth box (commercial or homemade) using a cover and fertilizer strip) it is 100% essential that the water wick well enough to keep the area with the fertilizer damp.

What percentage needs to be peat for the self fertilizing aspect to work? I really don't know. I do know that 25% isn't enough. Adding vermiculite can also help as it is a water sponge. A 'standard' store bought, peat based mix is proven to wick water well enough to keep the fertilizer strip are moist. This would be 70% (or so) peat, 10-15% (or so perlite and 10-20% (or so) vermiculite.

Of course if we are making a potting mix that is mostly peat and vermiculite it will be immediately obvious that we are doing the opposite of what Al and others recomend for a potting mix.

Al can chime in here as I don't want to put words into his mouth, but the mix that Al and others advocate is designed to result in a minimal perched water table at the bottom of a standard container that is top watered. This means that the capillary action of the mix is such that gravity can drain most of the water out the bottom. In most cases this is a very good thing and I use a mix very close to Al's in my regular containers *and* self watering containers. In no way am I bad mouthing the mix or the principle behind it.

However, if we want a mix that will, quite literally, have a 'perched water table' extending all the way to the surface of the mix it just isn't going to work using ingredients designed to minimize the perched water table.

This is required for the self fertilizing aspect of earthboxes to work. To an extent this can be handled by burying the fertilizer strip a couple inches under the mix where the mix remains damp. There have been many posters on here that I am learning from, but I probably have learned the most from you and Al.

Well, thank you very much for that compliment. I will try and live up to it. Al is much better educated and versed in the details than I am though. Unfortunately Al isn't too keen on using self watering containers or I am sure he would be able to improve how we use them as well. I was trying to find dyna-bloom that you had mentioned in another post but earthjuice is all I have been able to find. Do you use that in SW containers as well? Would a 8 wick work ok as opposed to a 6 inch?

Dyna-Grow is a hydroponic fertilizer so you aren't likely to find it at a garden center. It isn't important to have it on hand either. It's a fertilizer that I use sometimes only because it is water soluble, never falls out of suspension and is a complete fertilizer with all major and minor nutrients. Unfortunately it also contains chlorine and copper in a small amounts which are unnecessary and potentially fatal to fish and invertebrates if used in a planted aquarium environment. Judging by the amount of white powder build up I have seen it would appear quite 'salty' as well. The search for a 'perfect' fertilizer continues ;-) I haven't used EarthJuice myself, but have heard good things about it. If you will add any fertilizer to the water reservoir make certain it doesn't fall out of suspension. Just mix a gallon and let the gallon sit a couple days and you will see if this occurs. Fish/seaweed emulsions often have a tendency to do this. I don't think Earth Juice would fall out of suspension since it is used hydroponically , but can't say for sure as I haven't used it.

You can experiment with the size of the wicking area as well as using multiple wicking areas to see what effect it has on wicking water to the surface, but I rather doubt the size of the wicking area is going to make as much a difference as the ability of the mix itself to wick against gravity all the way to the surface fast enough to out compete evaporation.

Thank you for your replies justaguy. I did notice you seemed to know alot about self watering containers. I wasn't sure I was going to fertilize from the bottom but would like to know if you have tried it and what your opinion was (I thought you used dyna-bloom). I was in a hydroponics store the other day but they didnt carry dyna-bloom. I did see the earthjuice which Al had mentioned and many others that I havn't heard of. I had just planned on maybe using the earthjuice from the top a few times for the minors. The micromax (only granular one I know of) was kinda expensive since I didn't need that amount of quantity although having in granular form and mixed when the soil was made would have been nice. I do have some non self watering containers that I will also make using Al's mix. One of them is hopefully going to have elephant ear which I noticed you had posted on in another forum. I hope mine turns out as well as your pic as I've never grown one in a container.

I prefer to top fertilize my self watererers Wyndell. Of course this is only possible if you forgo the fertilizer strip otherwise top watering will flush too much, too quickly into the root zone.

I have used the dynagrow, but honestly don't recall if I have ever added anything directly to the water reservoir itself. I may have, but doubt it. My thought is that fertilizing from the top results in all the fertilizer having to pass by the roots before it can enter the reservoir while adding fert to the reservoir may or may not get the fert to the roots efficiently. Probably not a huge deal in practice as long as the fert doesn't fall out of suspension.

The Elephant Ear I found to be very fun and easy to grow. I think you will be very pleased. To get the largest sized plant choose the largest sized bulb you can find. I have seen them sold from golf ball to baseball sized, but the one I used I found early in the season and was softball sized. That probably had more to do with the size it reached than anything I did for it.

I happened to see a EE that was probably bigger than a softball the other day. I thought it was the biggest one I had ever seen so of course I gotta have it, lol. I have grown them in the ground but wanted this one in a planter. My wife was with me yesterday and she saw this huge planter she liked. I told her, its probably wayyyyyy too big for the rose she wants planted in it but would be just right for the EE, lol. I ended up getting her a smaller container for her rose and I got the big one for my elephant ear.

JAG is right - I really don't use self watering containers, and he's doing a very good job with the advice that he's offering. We're lucky to have him here. ;o)

I think the wicking issue is going to vary from grower to grower for the reasons JAG mentioned and some others (wicking speed, evaporative rates, mass of the plant in the container .....). Very important is the particulate size of the soil components. If I was growing in a self-watering/fertilizing container, I would be using the same % of ingredients I use in most of my top watered containers, but the bark would be partially composted and would look like the bark at the top in this picture:

{{gwi:4825}}
A bark product that looks like this will offer more than enough wicking ability, but I understand that everyone will not be able to find a product like this, so you need to improvise, as JAG suggested. I think that vermiculite in the self-watering containers, along with additional peat is a good way to increase the wicking efficiency, but I would keep the vermiculite content to Another factor that would tend to make me less picky about the soil I would build for myself in a self-watering container is the fact that you don't have the continual top watering to hasten soil compaction. Aside from grower convenience, I think that single issue is probably the biggest advantage to these container types for those that will be growing in a commercially prepared soil.

I noted that you're considering the Dyna-Bloom 3-12-6 for your EEs which has a very low N content (3) when compared to the P (12) actually, there should be about 6-8 times more N for this heavy N user than P, so the 3-12-6 formulation has about 25 times more P than the plant needs. EEs really prefer a very high N diet, so if you're sold on a Dyna-Gro product, their 10-5-5 or 8-4-8 blends would be a much better choice. Growing them in the ground last year, I made them very happy with regular applications of 27-3-3 lawn fertilizer scratched into the soil (but not in containers, please). In containers, I used MG 24-8-16 at half strength weekly and added a full dose of 5-1-1 fish emulsion each time I fertilized. It worked extremely well.

Al

Al, getting tired of all my questions yet, lol. The pine bark fines I found look similar to your picture. I did mix up a batch and plant a rose this weekend and decided the mix looked better than my seed starting mix. I still wondered if wick length did affect the PWT though.

As for the EE, I was probably wasn't going to use the dyna-bloom on them other than if I needed the micronutrients. Since I can't find it, guess it doesn't matter. I am going to get some earthjuice though as I did find it. I have also bought some dynamite (green bottle) that is higher in N and has the micro's in it (maybe use it to mix as crf when I make the soil). More than likely I will find something with high N for the EE to use as normal fertlizer since it is foliage rather than blooms or fruit. Is the MG stuff you used the powder that mixes with water or the liquid in a bottle? Between you and Justaguy I am going to learn this stuff.

Justaguy, if you don't fertilize with a strip, how do you do it?

Thanks Al and Justaguy

W - Questions are what keep the forum from becoming stagnant, so ask away. Someone will usually offer some kind of answer.

The 24-8-16 is granular soluble and by looking at the package, it seems to have more of the minors than the liquid 12-4-8. They are both the same ratio, so you can use either, and they will deliver the same amounts of NPK if you follow directions.

Al

thank you Al

is the 24-8-16 MG one of those things in a box that you mix with water and spray like foliar feeding? I have several of those with a tomato on it and used it regularly last year. I used that last year by mixing in a gallon of water and feeding my bell peppers (in a container) every week (sometimes I sprayed on saturday early in the morning). Was the best peppers I had ever grown but I'm not so sure it was my fertilizer practices. More like inspite of my messing with them. I kinda think some of it had to do with the placement as they got shade from about 5 o'clock on when it gets so hot here in west texas. I'm not real sure how I kept from killing them with all the epson salt, limestone, fertilizer granuals, bloom boosters, and the kitchen sink that I used late in the year. Maybe flooding them everyday washed it out, lol. I had a tomato plant which started out well but the soil was from a prior year and I think it compacted too much or something. It didnt drain well halfway through (I thought worms plugged up my drain hole) Anyway, I didn't discover this forum until it was too late and now I won't reuse the soil without at least adding to it if I have a financial crunch. It looks like yours would last 2 years if I need it to though. I want to see what happens when I do things right.

It just says "All-Purpose Fertilizer" on the box, & if you turn it to the back, it will give you the NPK analysis & tell you how much Fe, Zn, Mn, Cu, etc. is in it.

You'll also find directions for use in watering cans on the box.

Al

Justaguy, if you don't fertilize with a strip, how do you do it?

I mix CRF into the mix (as I am doing with regular containers) and while I use the reservoir for most waterings I top water with a liquid fertilizer.

In other words I don't use the self fertilizing aspect of Earth box methodology, just the self watering aspect.

It isn't that I have anything against the self fertilizing either. I know for a fact that terrific plants can be grown using the EB methodology. When I 'converted' to using something close to Al's mix I discovered the water wouldn't wick enough to keep the surface moist so I had to remove the fert strip and cover. Since then I just prefer to do it that way. Nothing more than personal preference and I am sure you will get great results doing it the EB way.

Now that spring is coming and starting to plant again, I checked into this valuable message board.

I'm planting several Garden Supply self watering containers (and a few homemade ones).

For wicking last year I used a 1peat 1turface 1bark mix. It did ok, but the top would dry out and I'd need to top water often, negating the convenience of a self watering pot. The 1/2 peat 1/4 vermiculite 1/4 compost mix wicked well. The plant roots weren't as well developed, but the convenience was worth the tradeoff.

This year I'm trying a 1/2peat 1/4lava rock 1/4bark mix and also a 1/2compost 1/2lava rock mix in one container. Don't expect this one to do well, but if I could get a good organic self watering mix to do well it would be great. Also like the lava rocks because I can reuse them in the future. Just put the old mix in a wheelbarrow fill it with water, the rocks go to the bottom and the other stuff can be skimmed off.

Like Justaguy, I use the CRF (oscomote) for fertilizer, and water once in awhile with seaweed.

Thank you Emgardener. I'll probably add a little more peat as justaguy suggested. I'll just try to plant them as deep as possible so the roots at least receive moisture.

Justaguy, I may try some top watering but I'll be working on my house most the summer trying to sell it. So not sure I would have time to topwater as many containers as I'm going to have. I do like doing something, so I would like to water every now and then just to feel like I'm doing something.

Al, I do have some of that fertilizer so I'll continue to use it (I was expecting something more fancy from you, lol).

Last week I ordered some of the fish emulsion/seaweed stuff (nurture harvest). Now it looks like I shouldn't use it containers. Is that right?

thanks everyone for the replies.

Last week I ordered some of the fish emulsion/seaweed stuff (nurture harvest). Now it looks like I shouldn't use it containers. Is that right?

I use it all the time in containers, self watering and regular. I just apply it from the top, I do not add it to the reservoir because it will fall out of suspension and make a goopy mess in the bottom. I don't use it as a primary source of nutrients in containers, I use it as a mild supplement that supplies all the minor nutrients. It's a product that you really don't have to worry too much about overdoing. Besides, what's better than the smell of fish on one's hands after coming in from the garden? ;-)

The competition pumpkin growers swear by the stuff too.

If you don't use it this year, hang on to it. It is good stuff.

For some reason I had thought I saw another post that said something about fish emulsions not working in containers because microbes weren't there or something. I think the post said it worked well in ground but not containers. I am getting too old to remember everything. It was over my head other than I thought "shoot, I just ordered some of that".

You aren't getting too old, I read that post as well. What can I say, it works just fine for me. ;-)

It isn't going to produce a plant response the way Miracle Grow will, but it doesn't have to. I don't use it as a sole source of nutrients, just a complete source of them. In fact I sometimes mix both MG and Fish liquid in the same watering can, both at full strength. The heavier feeders seem to like this. I know your EE certainly will.

I think you guys are referring to this:

Organic fertilizers do work to varying degrees in containers, but I would have to say that delivery of the nutrients can be very erratic and unreliable. The reason is that nutrient delivery depends on the organic molecules being broken down in the gut of micro-organisms, and micro-organism populations are boom/bust, varying widely in container culture.
Some of the things affecting the populations are container soil pH, moisture levels, nutrient levels, soil composition, compaction/aeration levels ..... Of particular importance is soil temperatures. When container temperatures rise too high, microbial populations diminish. Temps much under 55* will slow soil biotic activity substantially, reducing or halting delivery of nutrients.

I do include various formulations of fish/seaweed emulsions in my nutrient program at certain times of the year, but I never rely on them, choosing chemical fertilizers instead. Chemical fertilizers are always immediately available for plant uptake & the results of your applications are much easier to quantify.

I try to use them when temperatures are favorable & there is little chance of carry over. I also mix them right in the same container with chemical fertilizers when I use them. Probably one of the most unscientific things you'll hear me say about container culture is on the subject of fish emulsions. I include them in my fertilizer program, even though I cannot quantify or see the added benefit. I suppose that is because I use other sources to insure that all the minors are available. The scientific side of me asks, "Why do you use them when you cannot justify their use?" The practical side of me has to answer, "I don't know - I just do." Perhaps it's because the nurturer wants to be sure the plants have every possible advantage to become what they can be. It works fine, so I'm not going to waste a bunch of additional time on introspection. ;o)

Al

"I don't know - I just do."

I like that one, lol. I think last summer I was reading about alpha tea and pellets on the rose forum. I bought a bag and threw some of those in my container cuz it felt good, lol. Probably was the wrong thing to do but figured if it was good for a rose it was good for a tomato or bell pepper (my mom taught me if a little does a little good, then alot---well you know). I will be the first to admit that some of the things I do I don't necessarily do for the good of the plant, rather it makes me feel like I'm doing something good. Not going to get into the "tilling" vs "not tilling" but feels good to get my hands dirty. I think it should be enjoyable even if its not always what should be done although I'm trying to get better.

I think you guys are referring to this:

It was actually a different post. I recalled that you used the fish liquids.

It wasn't a bad post or anything either. I thought the premise was incorrect (the product won't be broken down into usable forms in containers), but can understand if someone is using it as the sole source of nutrients in containers they aren't going to get the quick 'Wow!' effect that Miracle Grow or any other liquid fert in highly available form that hits the plant all at once provides.

I personally think we need more run on sentences today to balance out all the roftl, lol, tyl, wtg, and other text messaging shorties :). IMHO