I do know that ants are attracted by aphids, so if you control aphids, you will often control ants. I use Neem for that, which is considered organic, but it's preventative. It won't do much once the aphids come. This year, I've armed myself with pyrethrin/rotenone for those situations when I need something stronger than neem. I'm hoping it works!

Here is a link that might be useful: my blog

Where did you get your pyrethrin/rotenone? Because Bonide has stopped making it and none of my old sources have any left.

I've been sitting here stewing all morning over the Luddites who have managed to spread enough fear around that EVEN THOUGH rotenone has been removed from the NOP list of unapproved substances, manufacturers have "voluntarily" stopped making it for home garden use. Sevin and worse you can easily go to the hardware store and buy by the pound, but not rotenone! GRRRRRRRR!

I'll be better soon. But this is getting ridiculous. I've been an organic gardener all my life but it's like the PETA mentality has taken over. They don't want you to use ANYTHING (and the only thing I ever used rotenone for anyway was flea beetle control on my eggplants since nothing else works). They're trying to get the new one, spinosad, thrown off the approved list, and even PYRETHRINS! I went to one site for flea beetle control information and they wanted me to spray with LEMON JUICE. Or stand there and wave fly paper around over my plants! FER GOSH SAKES!

AAAAGH! *gasp* I'll be better soon . . . maybe.

For the good of the folks eating the food, insect control around vegetable gardens is very specific to the insect problem. There is no blanket "nuke" insecticide available nor would it be desirable to use even if it did exist.

Sevin comes the closest to a pest nuke and the side-effects of it and the damage done to beneficial insects far out-weighs the problems it is used for. (And no, I am not an organic gardener. I have just done my homework on Sevin.)

So the first rule of vegetable garden insect control is to first ID the insect. Then make sure it is actually doing damage. Just because it is there doesn't mean it is hurting anything. Then find the control specific for it.

Please keep in mind that over 90% of the insects found in a vegetable garden are what are called neutral or beneficial insects. They do little or no damage while helping the garden and the plants at the same time by pollinating plants, controlling harmful pests, and even improving the soil. So the goal is to avoid wiping them out while trying to eliminate the few bad guys.

Ants, with the exception of fire ants, are not usually considered a garden problem. They are classed as a garden neutral - no harm, no foul. As loribee said, they will farm aphids for their nectar but it is the aphids that are the problem, not the ants.

I'd suggest you do some research and reading into what is called Integrated Pest Management as it will help you ID the specific insect, learn to assess the damage it is doing if any, and list the controls for that particular pest.

You can start with the info from the University of Florida on IPM and I linked the University of Maine info below. There are many others sites if you Google 'IPM'.

Hope this is of help to you.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: What is IPM?

LOL, sorry Zens! I know how you feel. I'd gotten the concentrate from Johnny's Seeds late last summer after deciding I needed a bigger gun than my little neem revolver. However, when I replied to this post, I'd gone over to the Johnny's website to see exactly what I'd bought and I couldn't find it anymore. Now, I know why! Guess I'm going to have to use it sparingly as it will apparently be the last I get!

*weeps*

Well I guess that solves my problem with the local "community" garden, which is run by a bunch of these brain-washed ultra-organic Luddites. I can't argue with them about using Rotenone if I can't frickin' BUY it anymore.

Apparently Rotenone is in the same boat as my natural thyroid hormone medication. It was grandfathered in in the 50's but now 60 years later they're going back and requiring rigorous testing that nobody has the money to put into it because it's not a high-profit substance to start with. For awhile there I was having to buy it from Canada because the FDA had shut down the only place making it here in the US.

Score:

Me: 1 (thyroid medication reapproved, SO FAR)
Luddites: 1 (Rotenone unavailable to the home gardener despite being put back on the NOP approved list)

Don't like being tied up there. Nope, nope, no sirree.

Rotenone is good stuff until it gets into waterways. It's very effective at killing fish and other aquatic life.

The blame best lies with irresponsible farmers (including chicken/poultry factory farms which use/used it as a very effective mite control method).

There's still plenty of places to buy the stuff, though many sellers no longer carry it because of concerns about how people use it indiscriminately.

Btw...they key to buying rotenone is to either look for supply places which buck the grey area of the law with their existing supplies or sell it for fish kill control (still legal).

I would suggest and plead with anyone looking to use this solution look into other ways to control their insects in a way that doesn't kill beneficials (which this does) as well as endanger the ground/stream water supply.

This isn't an issue for most home gardeners, but neither is proper time putting in pest scouting and control.

Sounds like someone needs anger management more than insect management, preferably before the sangha Bodhidharma-slaps him.

I'm a her, and thanks anyway, I'll continue to decry Luddites who misuse and abuse scientific studies as a way to control through fear and intimidation. The original study (and there are only 3 that have been cited, the latest came out just this year and I've not seen it yet) specifically stated that there was NO LINK between Rotenone and the symptoms they were seeing. Plus they were injecting horrendously huge quantities of rotenone into the jugular veins of rats. That's not even REMOTELY "proper use".

Mainline nutmeg and I guarantee you'll get sick, let alone an actual pesticide.

As far as killing beneficials - not if properly used. Since I only ever used it on my eggplants (NOTHING else except maybe the new one, Spinosad, works on flea beetles, and the Luddites are trying to get that AND pyrethrins thrown out as well) and I always used a liquid form (less chance of dispersion than dust, also less chance of inhaling it) and I never used it near streams or lakes and I never used it UNLESS there were flea beetles present AND I only used it when there were no bees around (just to be safe) it never did a thing to MY beneficials. Oh yeah and I used a handheld spray bottle - again more control over application, only treating the surfaces that needed it (eg eggplant leaves). One application cut the flea beetle population down to bearable levels. I might have to use it 2 or 3 times all told in an entire growing season.

In a commercial setting - and I think it was study #2 that looked at commercial workers - all bets are off. I've seen farm workers stick their bare hands in sacks full of diazinon or Sevin and throw it around by the handsful. Even when I suggested this may not be safe they pish-poshed. And I'm not talking in the 60s either. Rotenone is safe as houses when properly used - but I wouldn't rely on ANY commercial grower, "organic" or not, to be using any substance properly. Organic or not, it's still a poison. As far as the purported link to Alzheimers, rotenone was not the only farm chemical those farm workers were exposed to. Again, you can't draw a link from rotenone to the symptoms they thought they might be seeing in those farm workers. There are synergy factors to be considered as well - even organic farms are not exactly free of toxins and chemicals, even if they're "natural" rather than synthetic.

It sucks that a handful of big-mouthed fear mongers have cut off a safe alternative for home gardeners while the likes of Sevin powder is still widely and easily available (a lot cheaper than the rotenone was too).

And that's something else that kills me - they're still using it in ponds and the like, where it persists for 6 months or more - but not in the home garden, where it breaks down in 3 to 6 days. What kind of sense does that make???? LOL!

"It sucks that a handful of big-mouthed fear mongers have cut off a safe alternative for home gardeners while the likes of Sevin powder is still widely and easily available"

Actually, you need to blame California cauliflower growers specifically, plus similar monoculture farms that created massive fish kills using the stuff via drift and runoff.

The push to get it out of the marketplace is thanks to how effectively it destroys life in streams and waterways. It's a very quick and effective fish killer.

That said, this isn't an issue to most home gardeners who aren't broadcasting the stuff over 10-100+ acres and pushing crazy amounts of irrigation in places that don't get enough rain and too much wind (like too much of California's growing areas).

The reason they use it in ponds is to kill fish as a management technique for invasive fish or recreational ponds.